35 replies to this topic

[Mitch]

batari, on Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:49 AM, said:

Believe me, I would love to have new shells for Harmony and I'm sure Albert would love to have them for homebrews. The problem is that a the custom tooling for new shells is insanely expensive, not to mention the unit cost for actually producing shells, and the cost really doesn't make sense for the quantities we're talking.

See this thread.

Mitch

[tetrode kink]

batari, on Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:49 AM, said:

Believe me, I would love to have new shells for Harmony and I'm sure Albert would love to have them for homebrews. The problem is that a the custom tooling for new shells is insanely expensive, not to mention the unit cost for actually producing shells, and the cost really doesn't make sense for the quantities we're talking...

Despite my statement that I'm not worried about the classic hardware disappearing, Dastari Creel has a point: Why not avoid that eventuality, if possible?

Elsewhere on these forums, IIRC, I've seen that the cost of molds would be in the $4,000-5,000 range? My memory is fuzzy and what I read may have been inaccurate anyway. However, if that figure is even close to correct, coulsn't the amount be raised somehow?

AtariAge is a major producer of new games, maybe Al could hold a raffle to raise the funds for the molds. Or maybe a charity auction, where several members donate some nice classic gear, then other members bid for the lot. Or just a straight-out, one-time fund drive for Al to raise the funds, with donors perhaps receiving bonuses or credit/discounts for future purchases at the AtariAge Store. I'm not sure what exactly would be the best method, but you see where I'm going.

Also, AtariAge isn't the only new-game producer in town. If new cases were available, perhaps other producers would be interested in purchasing them for their products.

Just an idea.

-tet

[Dastari Creel]

tetrode kink, on Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:05 AM, said:

Dastari Creel, on Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:58 PM, said:

Oh the term "gaming naturalist" is just to say that like a naturalist, I like to see things preserved in their original state. So with this metaphor a VCS would be like a wild animal that you want to leave in the wild and a homebrewed portable system would be something domesticated like a cat or dog.

OK, thanks for the explanation. I think I understand what you mean, but:

• The term 'gaming naturalist' is a bit of an oxymoron; video games are anything but natural. I think a more fitting term would be "gaming originalist."
  
• Your metaphor seems a little strained. Wild animals don't "turn into" domesticated ones, and VCS's don't procreate, be they original or hacked.

Well I was using "naturalist" as a comparison. If I said "originalist" no one would know what I mean but we all know what a "naturalist" is in the real world. He attempts to preserve things in nature, so I figured that it would make sense as an analogy.

Your second point doens't make sense though. I specifically said a homebrewed system, not a hack. A VCS doesn't become a homebrewed system either. A homebrew would be like a close cousin to the original VCS like how a lion compares to a cat. What hackers are doing is taking a lion, castrating it, and then putting it in a tiny cage. I think the metaphor holds up pretty well.

I do want to point out that hacking software doesn't bother me at all because hacking software in no way destroys the original game. So if people want to modify pitfall ad infinitum then more power to them. I still have my original and I can play their new versions as well.

tetrode kink, on Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:05 AM, said:

OK, you're an electrical engineer so it makes sense that you don't want to see someone's design creation getting hacked up like so much woodwork. But the designer's work will still live on in VCSs that remain in original condition, by the thousands. Hacking a board up may be primitive and inelegant, but until now it was the only game in town, pardon the pun. Few (no?) people who wanted a portable VCS had engineering degrees to enable them to design a smaller board. But carefully cutting an existing VCS board down to a size that better fits a portable platform is kind of ingenious, from a non-engineer's POV. I don't think it misses the point at all. The point is, someone wants a portable VCS, hacks an existing board to fit the bill, presto, a portable VCS. I can see the desire to preserve the original design, but there are plenty of those still around, and thanks to the retro-Atari scene there always will be.

Well like I said, if I do well on this its because I stand on the backs of giants. Look, I'll be the first to say that I'll probably utilize any information I can get from what came before because I don't want to "reinvent the wheel" when it comes to things that the hackers and I agree on. Specifically since I'm not a draftsman I will definitely use any tips and tricks that they used for shell design and will be greatful for the trail that they blazed. I realize that as a one-off prototype venture, the hacked handheld 2600 is an AWESOME thing. I would just like to move the technology forward a bit and do something which isn't destructive to the original equipment and will probably be cheaper than paying for someone to take the chainsaw to your VCS. The ultimate goal is to create a portable 7800 but you have to walk before you can run so I wanted to start with the 2600 as a simpler version of the same project.

tetrode kink, on Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:05 AM, said:

Interestingly, you're kind of the other side of the coin: You want a portable for which you designed the board.

Well yes and no. As I said, the ultimate goal is to produce a handheld 7800 (or what I'd call a 3900). I mean this does stimulate me on an intellectual level and I do think it will be an awesome project and if I can do everything that I've set out to do I will definitely feel a major sense of accomplishment. So there is definitely the "hobby" element. But also once I learned that there isn't a viable modern-day clone of the VCS I started thinking about the entire issue of what makes for a good clone. Since there are so many VCS's it would have to have a new element which is when I came up with the portable idea. I also figure it would have to be competitively priced with being able to buy a used working VCS. Then I found out about the hacks. Its an interested idea but they're way to pricey (over $100) and they destroy an antique. Now I almost want to do this just as a way of helping to preserve the VCS and to give those that want a VCS a cheaper alternative.

tetrode kink, on Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:05 AM, said:

But the most basic point for me is that, like any other device, the VCS was made to serve a purpose. If its owner wants to modify it to serve that or any other purpose, it's a little ridiculous to be so sentimental about it that said modification gets you all bent, especially since there is no danger of the original disappearing.

Ha! Whose getting bent of of shape? I compared myself to a naturalist not an eco-terrorist. What people do with their property is fine with me. I'm just stating that I personally disagree with it and I think that given an alternative, people would go for a cheaper product made from spare parts then a more expensive hack.

tetrode kink, on Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:05 AM, said:

Yeah, it's all old cart shells for VCS homebrew games. First of all, it's not all that simple to make one. It's not only the casing, it's the dust-door protection mechanism Atari designed for their cartridges. If one wanted to ape a simpler design, one could copy the Activision cartridge which had no dust door.

If NES shells can be made cheaply I'm sure that activision shells could be made cheaply as well. I didn't realize that Atari shells have a complex mechanism in there thought. I still haven't taken apart my new collection and cleaned them. I hesitate to destroy the labels to get at that screw but at the same time I'm a stickler for clealiness in my games so I'll eventually break down and do it.

tetrode kink, on Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:05 AM, said:

AtariAge uses old carts shells for all their homebrew cart production, but I'm not worried about that, either. Al only accepts the most common carts (R1-R2, etc.) to act as shell donors. I'm not worried that we'll ever run out of "Combat" or "Asteroids" carts because of it. If that ever happens, I'm sure a manufacturing alternative will be employed. Such things have happened in other aspects of the retro scene here.

I just don't like that as a short-sighted view. Why make something rare. I mean everything will break down eventually but why make it happen ahead of its time. I'd rather preserve things as long as possible.

[Dastari Creel]

Curt Vendel, on Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:21 AM, said:

It started out at a Xilinx FPGA and the VHDL code was sent to the factory to be optimized and made into a low cost ASIC. Gizmo is a little hybrid chip I did and it incorporated in for handling 2 functions - it does menu'ing and puts a nice look onto the system instead of a text-only listing and then it channels and passes through joystick controls to the console.

Atari owns the rights to that rev of the chip, but gizmo is solely owned by me. I did a new core 2 years back that now has LCD and SDCARD implementation, its just a big honk'n test board on my desk, I was hoping that it would become the Flashback Portable, maybe it will someday see the light as a final production product.

So, I take it from your reply that you were involved in the design of the Flashback 2 (sorry if this is general knowledge but I'm new to the board). I understand why having some dedicated games on a system would be great for people with Atari nostalgia but who didn't keep their system but do you know why nothing was ever done to create a true clone system with a cartridge connector? Obviously provision was made for this on the Flashback 2 but I wonder why a complete system was never designed.

[atwwong]

Dastari Creel, on Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:08 PM, said:

So, I take it from your reply that you were involved in the design of the Flashback 2 (sorry if this is general knowledge but I'm new to the board). I understand why having some dedicated games on a system would be great for people with Atari nostalgia but who didn't keep their system but do you know why nothing was ever done to create a true clone system with a cartridge connector? Obviously provision was made for this on the Flashback 2 but I wonder why a complete system was never designed.

To save Curt the time - IIRC Atari was worried that they would have to deal with lawsuits for ~25 year old carts that weren't working on FB2's with cart connectors, but thankfully Curt and team made the boards so that a cart connector could be soldered on.

I still haven't had the courage to do so... too worried about my unskilled hands...

[Dastari Creel]

tetrode kink, on Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:33 AM, said:

Despite my statement that I'm not worried about the classic hardware disappearing, Dastari Creel has a point: Why not avoid that eventuality, if possible?

Ultimately that was my point. Also I think that even though it appears that there is a high initial cost to reproducing Atari carts, it appears that its all in the one-time cost of creating the tooling and molds. Having the mechanical drawings of the carts available would also reduce time and expense since you don't have to constantly make a cart and test it and then adjust dimensions if it doesn't quite work.

I want to reiterate what I've said elsewhere. There is a guy who makes NES carts here and he's able to sell them for $2 a pop. The thread that Mitch has linked us to has a guy saying that Atari carts could be done at $2 a pop. So yeah we'd have to pay $2 extra for a homebrew but I don't think that's really bad if it means that its all new material going into my cart.

It seems that someone is already interested in selling these carts but even if he wasn't I think that the raffle idea is great. If all the members contributed just a few dollars you could easily raise the $5000 needed. I would certainly contribute a few bucks.

[supercat]

Dastari Creel, on Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:09 PM, said:

I just don't like that as a short-sighted view. Why make something rare. I mean everything will break down eventually but why make it happen ahead of its time. I'd rather preserve things as long as possible.

Countless millions of perfectly-functional Atari 2600 cartridges have been thrown in the trash simply because there are no longer millions of people who want play them. Many millions more are going to be thrown in the trash in future for that reason. The question isn't whether these carts are going to be kept as-is so people can play Missile Command. That simply isn't going to happen. The question is whether they are going to be junked entirely, or whether parts of them will be kept and re-used. And given those choices, I'd say the latter is preferable.

Realistically speaking, the number of cartridges that are junked each year is going to dwarf the number that are salvaged for homebrew games until the carts start to get scarce enough that fewer get junked. The more carts get used for homebrew games, the more carts will still exist when they start to become noticeably scarce.

Edited by supercat, Thu May 6, 2010 4:53 PM.

[OldAtarian]

They should have made the Flashbacks with cartridge slots. Once all the surviving 2600's die and parts dry up it's over. We need new units to replace them. Seriously, how much more could a slot added to the production cost?

[MitchSchaft]

There are tutorials on youtube to do that aftermarket.

[Retro Rogue]

OldAtarian, on Fri Oct 1, 2010 2:34 PM, said:

They should have made the Flashbacks with cartridge slots. Once all the surviving 2600's die and parts dry up it's over. We need new units to replace them. Seriously, how much more could a slot added to the production cost?

That has been discussed ad nauseum over the last five years here. We didn't ad it because a) The extra material (or anything added to the console beyond what we had) would indeed have added to much per unit to meet the price point we wanted. b) It would have been a technical support nightmare for the current Atari, who didn't want to deal with calls about why 20-25 year old cartridges were not working on the new unit, etc.

[awace]

Dastari Creel, on Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:48 PM, said:

wgungfu, on Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:16 AM, said:

Dastari Creel, on Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:31 PM, said:

Anyhow I wanted to create a handheld system completely from scratch. I have all the 2600 tech specs and I just downloaded the schematics. It'd be pretty easy to build except for that T.I.A. chip. That is going to be my major problem but I'll look around some and see what I can find. I've got some crazy ideas for some of the features of this system if I can make it and I'm pretty confident about all of it except for the chip.

Should be a fun project though even if it takes me a long while to realize it.

If all you're looking to do is a custom PCB (vs. Ben's method of hacking them), and no hacking up of an original 2600 for a TIA, you can always get brand new TIAs here:

http://www.myatari.com/atari26.txt

You...are...awesome. I had thought that since the TIA was a custom chip made for Atari that I wouldn't be able to find it without reverse engineering. I guess my question now is, "how legal is it to buy this?" I realize that Atari Inc is unlikely to prosecute me for buying this thing but I never like doing something illegal even if I probably won't be caught. Is this something where I put it in my own creation they could sue for me stealing their patented (one presumes) technology?

I have no knowledge of the legalities of such things?

JUST LICENCE IT !!! they did why not u..
I am thinking of using a mini TFT SCREEN ON A REAL ATARI 2600 since I got my burner to make carts using old carts and a 7404 I could just use a big chip and figure out how to burn at addresses on my burner and then just use switches to SELECT lines and have a multi cart then just put a screen on a real atari there is plenty of room for a battery and charger system a bike light headlamp charger system would work great lithium batteries would work great too.
If I turned the charging system off and ran from battery w out charging system It probably would last longer..
also I just figured out WHY DO YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO HAVE THE ATARI FACING YOU I could just turn it around and the joystick ports would be facing front I already know the controls..
I just thought about making a TV into a 2600 but NAW I bet I could repair that damn polaroid TV or get a smaller LCD TV and put it on top of the regular 2600 there would be lots of room for batteries and other mods like multiple carts hooked up at same time and a address select witch would make FCC interferance like my FB II does w cart plugged in but I could have all lines hooked to all carts then select the one I want w a10 that would be cool to have a multi cart then all I would need is a zero insertion socket..
I keep wondering why someone just doesnt make a 2600 blank cart w usb and memory .. mabie its illegal to make Atari 2600 carts but blank ones ??.. you would think as a project build it youre self might work..