77 replies to this topic

[pboland]

I'm not much for starting "what if" type topic but, I figured, why not. When I was younger I spent a lot of time at the arcades (1985-90ish). I think it is obvious that home tech just caught up to the arcade tech. So, the question is, what would it take to make a successful arcade today.

Here's my take. People like to be rewarded when thay play a game. High score is not good enough for people anymore. I think a combination of redemption machine and arcades are the way to go. Forget tickets, I mean instant redemption. I know similar things exits already but to be honest they suck.

Make a pinball machine (a good machine with scoring just like a regular pinball machine) that uses super balls and when you are done racking up a score you get that ball. Not only that but, maybe more or different super balls depending on your score (or some other game theme related prize) but at minimum you get a standard super ball (even if you opt not to play after inserting the money).

How about a modern type Frogger game. At minimum you get a small rubber frog but depending on your score you make you might get a die cast car or a small stuffed alligator. These prizes would be dispensed at the game. Think of them as high tech gum ball machines but with a video game attached. If you decide you don't want to play the game, you could hit a button saying so and it would just dispense the standard little prize (just like a standard gum ball machine).

If scores are important maybe a small certificate card could be printed right from the machine with your name on it stating you have the high score as of (what ever date and time it is) and maybe it could have a cell phone camera in it to take your picture and print it on the certificate.

Just think of the different things that could be done like this. Heck, you could use standard game systems (with custom games of course) to pull this off. By doing these type of things, you would get a different experience than you would ever get at home.

space games with prize, first person shooters with prizes.......The sky is the limit. Or maybe I'm just thinking too much about it.

[rmaerz]

I don't see Xbox or Wii spitting out prizes...I see that stuff as junk anyway...

If you want an arcade to succeed, here's what has to happen:

There has to be a reason to get the gamer off of the couch and into the arcade. That means exclusive and hot titles for the arcade. A gaming environment that could not be duplicated at home - think of those Discs of Tron cabinets from BITD.

Lower costs from manufacturer to arcade owner. Arcade owners are getting raped with their pants up.

Low overhead costs to run the arcade: rent and arcade license fees come to mind.

Card readers: you can't charge a quarter to play a game anymore.



From what I have seen, the arcade showroom model is working. The cabinets you play for a flat fee or for a birthday party rental are all for sale.

[atari181]

rmaerz, on Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:02 PM, said:

I don't see Xbox or Wii spitting out prizes...I see that stuff as junk anyway...

If you want an arcade to succeed, here's what has to happen:

There has to be a reason to get the gamer off of the couch and into the arcade. That means exclusive and hot titles for the arcade. A gaming environment that could not be duplicated at home - think of those Discs of Tron cabinets from BITD.

Lower costs from manufacturer to arcade owner. Arcade owners are getting raped with their pants up.

Low overhead costs to run the arcade: rent and arcade license fees come to mind.

Card readers: you can't charge a quarter to play a game anymore.


I agree, definately, no need for any reward, just great games that the arcade can charge no more than .50 for. We all have great consoles with excellent graphics now, why go to the arcade. It has to be somewhat cheap. I loved going to the arcade, it was an event, meeting new people, challenging others. Somewhere similar to Dave and Busters but not so expensive(games) would do well.
From what I have seen, the arcade showroom model is working. The cabinets you play for a flat fee or for a birthday party rental are all for sale.

[pboland]

rmaerz, on Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:02 PM, said:

From what I have seen, the arcade showroom model is working. The cabinets you play for a flat fee or for a birthday party rental are all for sale.

I have never hear of this before. What is the arcade showroom model? You can rent arcade games for parties? Maybe I've lived in a hole too long.

[rmaerz]

pboland, on Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:51 AM, said:

rmaerz, on Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:02 PM, said:

From what I have seen, the arcade showroom model is working. The cabinets you play for a flat fee or for a birthday party rental are all for sale.

I have never hear of this before. What is the arcade showroom model? You can rent arcade games for parties? Maybe I've lived in a hole too long.

The arcade is a showroom of arcade cabinets available for sale. I've seen some arcades where they'll put a price tag on the marquee.

And, the arcade is available to be rented out for parties.

See www.tntamusements.com and www.richieknucklez.com

Richie Knucklez does a flat fee of $10 on "Flashback Fridays"

[wood_jl]

Other than kids' birthday parties (Chuck E. Cheese kind of thing) there is likely nothing to bring back arcade popularity.

When arcades were popular, it was because the games/graphics were markedly superior to anything at home. You played Donkey Kong on 2600 yet still had a desire to play the mucho-superior arcade version. It was probably during the Playstation(1) era, during a game of Gran Turismo(1) that I laughed and realized "I've never played anything in an arcade that's this much fun!" Add in 2 more generations of systems and HDTV graphics and it's only gotten more-so that way. There is also waaaaaay more forms of entertainment overall today and people are generally "spoiled." To create an arcade game that can overcome all of this would be terribly expensive, and require elaborate controls and schemes that would make it more expensive. Sadly, the day of the arcade is finished. Every time I pass by old Atari or Namco arcade machines, I always slow down and stare for a moment and remember the "old days," glad that I was a part of it.

[Crazy Climber]

For something to be popular you have to get women to like it, if the girls go, the guys will follow.

[mbd30]

I would regularly visit an arcade that has a wide variety of classic video game and pinball machines from the 80's, 90's, etc. in good condition. Sure you can play a lot of them on MAME but it's not the same thing.

Would a chain of "nostalgia arcades" be successful? I don't know if younger people would be interested. It might attract people in their late 20's / early 30's who miss the arcade experience of their youth.

[SpiceWare]

wood_jl, on Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:50 AM, said:

When arcades were popular, it was because the games/graphics were markedly superior to anything at home. You played Donkey Kong on 2600 yet still had a desire to play the mucho-superior arcade version. It was probably during the Playstation(1) era, during a game of Gran Turismo(1) that I laughed and realized "I've never played anything in an arcade that's this much fun!" Add in 2 more generations of systems and HDTV graphics and it's only gotten more-so that way. There is also waaaaaay more forms of entertainment overall today and people are generally "spoiled." To create an arcade game that can overcome all of this would be terribly expensive, and require elaborate controls and schemes that would make it more expensive. Sadly, the day of the arcade is finished. Every time I pass by old Atari or Namco arcade machines, I always slow down and stare for a moment and remember the "old days," glad that I was a part of it.

Yep, if arcade games had gone to HD quality graphics(1920x1080) in the 90s, and ultra-HD(3840x2160) now, there's a good chance they'd still be around.

The other problem was lack of variety. In the 80s you had a multitude of game types to play - just look at the differences between Rally X, Centipede, Marble Madness, Galaga, Pac Man, Burger Time, Qix, etc. Last time I went into an arcade I saw nothing but fighting games and racing games and promptly walked back out.

Edited by SpiceWare, Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:48 AM.

[Crazy Climber]

mbd30, on Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:26 AM, said:

I would regularly visit an arcade that has a wide variety of classic video game and pinball machines from the 80's, 90's, etc. in good condition. Sure you can play a lot of them on MAME but it's not the same thing.

Would a chain of "nostalgia arcades" be successful? I don't know if younger people would be interested. It might attract people in their late 20's / early 30's who miss the arcade experience of their youth.

I would love a chain of nostalgia arcades to pop up but the problem is it just will not make enough money to stay in business and that is why there are so few. The ones that are still around are usually struggling to stay alive and the poor owner has to work all day every day because they can't afford to hire employees. This sounds like the same debate I used to have with Homer as to why classic video games are not more popular than they are. The problem is the nostalgia only hits a certain percentage of people. I like to compare it to records, sure there is a market for vintage records and even some people that will only listen to records but the hard truth is records will NEVER be as popular as they once were because they are just out dated crap to many people who have moved on to the next best thing. I grew up on Records and cassete tapes and I hate both of them now, give me a CD or iPod anyday! The same goes for Classic arcade machines, most people these days will just dismiss them as old outdated games, even 90% of the people that grew up with them. When my friends come over to my house my arcade machines RARELY get any use and these were the same guys going apeshit when a new machine hit Chuck e Cheese 20 years ago. They have moved on, not sure why I can't but the arcades are some of the best memories I have, just can't let them go but I (we) are the minority and niche hobbies are very hard to center a business around. Inflation is another factor, you have to pay for licensing these games, I think it is like $100+ per year. At 25 cents a play, that game needs to be played 400 times yearly just to pay the license. You still need pay for the lights/machines/etc..and I assume the owner would actually like to turn a profit instead of just doing charity work so you have to jack the price up, who is going to play Rampage, Spy Hunter, Terra Cresta or Double Dragon, etc.. for $1 a play, not many, so those games get cut and you end up with a Ms Pac man and a Golden Tee since those are the only games anyone actually plays. I would love more than anything for a chain of classic arcades to hit the scene but the truth is those days are a long distant memory, at least we were lucky to be a part of it, I just wish I took more pictures back then

[keilbaca]

For an arcade to succeed, it can't just be an arcade, unfortunately.

What would work is a multi sanctioned place.

The main room would be an arcade, but in the back you can rent per hour on decent gaming rigs to play PC games, and the same for consoles.

Also, the main thing is to hold tournaments. Unfortunately, Consoles do rule, so to get people to go to your arcade to play the other games, you have to have console tournaments. Guitar Hero and Halo come to mind.

My thing is that it has to have a couple pinballs, in working shape. A couple targets not working is ok, but a weak flipper just ruins it.

I always wanted to turn consoles into an arcade. I think it would be sweet wiring up a dreamcast to an arcade, then say firing up Marvel vs Capcom 2. When you insert a quarter, it presses start on the joystick, and you play.

[cvga]

I gathered a group of "investors" that were interested in creating a classic arcade 10+ years ago. Each person was going to contribute 5 classic games (I still have my Tempest, Food Fight, Gyruss, Congo Bongo, Venture, Ms. Pac-man and Asteroids Deluxe) and some seed money to get us started. We were going to set all of the games on free-play and charge a fee per session. Buying two sessions would allow you stay all day if you wanted. We were hoping that would keep undesirable people from just "hanging around" while also avoiding having someone tie up a game for an hour or so on a single quarter.

We had some other ideas that included grouping the games and decorating that area of the arcade by theme (space, racing, maze, etc). We had also started writing up a brief history along with interesting facts about each game (when it came out, how many were sold, high score, etc). We planned on showing the write-ups near each machine and creating a display of memoribilia for each theme. We were also going to place classic consoles around the floor with the home version of some of the games. One wall was going to show the historical Top Ten by month for the Arcade golden years and part of another wall was going to be dedicated to the top historical players combined with the top local players from our arcade. The whole arcade (other than Space) was going to be well lit (I can hear you groaning) and of course 80's music would be playing in the background but not so loud that you couldn't hear the games. We even had a name picked out "Classic Video Game Arena" and the staff (also us) would have worn referee shirts and referred to ourselves as the CVGA monitors.

Unfortunately we never progressed far enough to open. Choosing a location proved to be an extremely difficult task given that our 8 person partnership was spread too wide geographically across the city. In addition several of the locations we considered turned us away as soon as they heard the word "arcade". Before long two of our partners moved due to their jobs, one got married and another one or two started a family. My real job continued to consume more of my time, we had another child and the arcade idea faded before it got off the ground. We were concentrating on keeping the cost of the games and rent to a minimum while trying to staff the business primarily ourselves. I felt that we had a very high probability of breaking even but we never expected to turn much of a profit. I still think a business model like that would have a chance to succeed but you would have to have the right combination of people that are more interested in making it work than making money.

[rmaerz]

cvga, on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:33 PM, said:

In addition several of the locations we considered turned us away as soon as they heard the word "arcade".

How much was your locale charging for an arcade license?

[DaveD]

Some good thoughts in here.

As much as I'd love a classic themed arcade, I don't see it working without alcohol. It would inevitably target 30 & 40-somethings and it would turn into another themed bar.

For arcades to become popular again in the same way they once were, they need to be a cool social place where kids can interact and they have to showcase technology not available anywhere else. Not a bar, not a LAN party, not a museum, not a recreation of their living room, but something cooler and more unique than all those things.

Edited by DaveD, Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:58 AM.

[DaveD]

One more thing I should add in addition to the social atmosphere and new tech showcase: Must appeal to casual gamer. While I love the idea of an arcade day or arcade party, for arcades to be remotely what they used to be they have to get your money quick. No lingering, hour long games or marathon sessions. Just offer a quick, cool, social gaming experience.

[rmaerz]

DaveD, on Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:33 PM, said:

One more thing I should add in addition to the social atmosphere and new tech showcase: Must appeal to casual gamer. While I love the idea of an arcade day or arcade party, for arcades to be remotely what they used to be they have to get your money quick. No lingering, hour long games or marathon sessions. Just offer a quick, cool, social gaming experience.

Go back to what wood_jl said previously:

wood_jl, on Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:50 AM, said:

When arcades were popular, it was because the games/graphics were markedly superior to anything at home. You played Donkey Kong on 2600 yet still had a desire to play the mucho-superior arcade version.

Not only that but the games were designed to suck down quarters: game play easy to comprehend and increase in difficulty to keep you addicted. Kinda like coke: give 'em some lines for free and then when they're hooked is when you start charging them...

Galaga is a good example. Stage 1 the bugs enter formation without firing a missile. Stage 2 they fire missiles before entering formation. Stage 3 is the Challenging Stage and you know the rest of the story...

I watched my bro in-law play a game on his Xbox where he's some dude in the Black Forest and he moves three steps and there is a two minute long movie going on. WTF is that? That's something that won't fly in an arcade. The game takes an hour or so to play - you won't make money that way.

I think it's arguable whether an arcade can survive without modern games and I think it can. You cannot, however, expect that you can simply get the greatest titles of the era, charge 25 cents per play and be successful. That worked in the Golden Age but the economics does not make sense in 2010.

Location is important. While high traffic in a mall is ideal, you're also going to get raped on overhead. The boardwalk is nice but it's a ghost town and therefore seasonal if you're not in a warm weather climate.

You can read the latest issue of Classic Video Gamer for Todd Tuckey and Joe LeVan's take on this very subject. Also, one would have to ask Richie Knucklez and those guys on the left coast as to what they are doing to stay in business. And that is a question: are they scraping by or are they getting by comfortably?

Lastly, the public has to be reinfected with the idea that arcades (in the positive sense) weren't just about playing games. You met people, competed against people and had a good time. It was fun! Unfortunately, modern gaming has taken people hostage within their own four walls and they are not able to experience the social aspect of the arcade as it were in the Golden Age.

Starting my own classic arcade in my area is something I am brainstorming currently but it is nothing more than that right now.

[Random Terrain]

I like tickets or a cheap credit card type of thing. I'll play until I build up enough credits or points and go over to the counter and pick the toy or bag of food or whatever they might have. I like being able to pick my 'prize'.

[atarian63]

Random Terrain, on Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:09 PM, said:

I like tickets or a cheap credit card type of thing. I'll play until I build up enough credits or poin.ts and go over to the counter and pick the toy or bag of food or whatever they might have. I like being able to pick my 'prize'.

Thats called "kiddie" gambling.(not refering to you,just lots of kids play these) spend $50 to get a $5 toy. My step daughter who is 30 loves it. Drives me crazy.
Most op's will tell you that is what makes money. Sad but true I suppose. We have a new Dave and busters here and it has way to many ticket machines and not enough arcades.

[wood_jl]

One thing that's changed for sure - back when arcades were popular, kids didn't walk around with Nintendo DS and/or PSP and/or their gaming cell phone on them. What's to compel people to feed money into a machine when they can play Gran Turismo or Grand Theft Auto on a device in their pocket? [at least until they get home and 50-inch HD gaming]

Things like this make it impossible. Hell, there's a legitimate use for a payphone sometimes (calls can be more important than games) and I sometimes have a hard time finding one of those!

[rmaerz]

wood_jl, on Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:38 PM, said:

Hell, there's a legitimate use for a payphone sometimes (calls can be more important than games) and I sometimes have a hard time finding one of those!

There will be a payphone inside my arcade...I just need to get the arcade, first...

[cvga]

rmaerz, on Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:54 AM, said:

cvga, on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:33 PM, said:

In addition several of the locations we considered turned us away as soon as they heard the word "arcade".

How much was your locale charging for an arcade license?

If I remember correctly (it was a long time ago and assigned to someone else in our group) it was $100 annually per machine. However because we would have had the games on free play permanently I think that was causing some confusion. Someone (working for the state, not in our group) thought we might be able to avoid the licensing fee by also pricing the games and selling them outright.

[pboland]

I just found out this past weekend that there is an arcade (that has classic games in it) near me. However, they are in the process of moving. So, I will have to wait to see it.

Arcade Legends

It looks like they do the cover charge idea and just have the games set to free play.

I still think the idea of an arcade can still work. It is just a matter of finding that formula that gives people an experience and not just an other game. Maybe the idea of a restaurant with the arcade is the way to go? I don't know, just thinking about. I like cvga's concept the best so far as it is similar to one I have been thinking about lately.

Edited by pboland, Mon May 24, 2010 3:47 PM.

[save2600]

Lots of good stuff in here. But to put it succinctly IMO:

.5) local and Federal governments shall not tax or overtax land/property owners. Money for nothing and your chicks for free. Obsolete. Get over yourselves. You're not entitled to continue raping.

1) owners of malls, property and locations shall not charge what they do for rent for they too are not entitled to rape.

2) The last few manufacturers of arcade machines (Gary Stern in Pinball and whoever else is left doing video now, most just looks like PC or console gaming to me) shall not charge thousands of dollars for their machines. $5K for a pinball machine with bad graphics and a home model feel? Get real and get back to basics. Please. Stern even refuses to follow the KISS method of pinballing. Despite what anyone thinks about modern pinball machines, the majority of people that would like to play a pinball do NOT care about "in depth" rule sets. Stacking bonuses, hidden modes, video modes, all that crap. Hell, ramps are not even required. DUH! Wake up Stern and quit producing lame playfield designs mired in lame licenses that you've overpaid for. Many, many, many people mature enough to want to play pinball could care less about today's television or movies. Said licenses are not going to last, thus are not good long term investments. The old mindset of having to license everything mainstream is obsolete. Might it attract the random kid from a movie theater to drop 3 quarters (gasp) into a poorly maintained machine? Maybe. But will they come back? Nope, which you already know. Which brings me to:

3) operators need to maintain their machines. Pinball machines are not redemption machines. They require more maintenance than simple collecting quarters and wiping down the glass you lazy bastards you.

4) Anyone left into video gaming (Namco, Taito, etc.) need to get back in touch with what originally made those games successful in the first place. Socializing and caring about someone else's high score was and still should be a big deal. Not nationally. Locally. Both scores listed would be fine. Not 30+ scores, but maybe the top 10. And your overpriced/chinsey 25th+ Anniversary games aren't cutting it. Slapping together a cabinet with pixelated cheesy side art/control panel overlays/marquees, microswitch (gasp) buttons and joys and 25" monitors ain't cutting it. Bigger is not always better. Design the cabinets that made video gaming proprietary, unique, uncopyable and interesting again. Double sided mirrors. Backgrounds. Blacklights. Iridescent inks. Smaller monitors that don't exploit scan lines and force your eyes to move around the screen unnaturally because it's too large. <sigh> KISS.

...(to the industry): There's a few simple concepts for you to digest. And all for free no less. lol Good luck!

Edited by save2600, Mon May 24, 2010 4:37 PM.

[ledzep]

Crazy Climber, on Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:52 AM, said:

For something to be popular you have to get women to like it, if the girls go, the guys will follow.

Really. That doesn't explain musclecars, heavy metal, pro sports, stripclubs or computers which are huge yet comparatively barren in terms of girl interest.

I agree with what has been said in terms of game play. Arcade games worked because it was a real challenge to last more than 10 minutes on one play. I, too, have walked into a modern arcade only to be instantly bored with the idea of choosing between some race sims, fight sims or a Dance Dance Revolution/glorified Simon game. Graphics and story are great at home but arcade games were more about game play, making a game fun when it had practically nothing to look at (Asteroids, Q-Bert, Defender, Pac-Man, Tempest, etc.) but now with people more interested in marathon online games on their XBox 360s and PS3s (along with home theaters more advanced than anything in a theater) and talking about texture maps and FPS I'm not sure what would get most people out to a new arcade. Not only would there have to be a combination of good and rare classic arcade games available but also somebody would have to start making new ones in order for the repeat business, the What's new? factor. The last arcade games I played that I ever really liked were Silent Scope and Cyber Sled.

If there was a decent arcade near me I'd definitely go. When I was in high school and classes ended I'd end up at the Sega Center in the Sherman Oaks Galleria or one of the two or three arcades on my way home. But the truth is that now ain't then, the overhead must be brutal for arcade owners not to mention the magicians they need in order to keep some games alive. Nobody makes vector monitors anymore, right? What about arcade controls? I was also a big fan of Virtual World when it existed, my friends and I would go there in groups of 4 or 8 to play Battletech many times. I'm still planning on buying an original XBox and the Steel Battalion game in order to get close to that experience again.

I think a modern arcade would have to not only have the classic games but also an area for networked games, either a Battletech style experience (full pods) or at least some sort of cool playing area for PC or console games. Why people would do that instead of just playing at home, though, is the question. Maybe only have games exclusive to arcades? Sort of like movies, the arcade would have some sort of XBox or Playstation group/online game available first, people would come out to play it (and buy pizza or whatever) and then, 6 months later, a console version would appear in stores. Maybe the console version might be less advanced than the arcade version (not on purpose, maybe the arcade had better gear, multiple screens and dedicated controls). 2 or 3 different arcade-only network games + classic (and hopefully a few new) arcade games + maybe another area set up like a bar that offered food, that might work, an entire night of fun.

And you can't half-ass it, otherwise you end up with UWink, a place with not-bad food that's slightly overpriced and a bunch of games that can be played on giant group tables using touchscreens or some other form of transferring hand movements into game action. It was fun for about 20 minutes. It was for a birthday party so big deal, the group of friends was the important thing, but I don't see myself ever going back there.

[rmaerz]

save2600, on Mon May 24, 2010 3:59 PM, said:

4) Anyone left into video gaming (Namco, Taito, etc.) need to get back in touch with what originally made those games successful in the first place. Socializing and caring about someone else's high score was and still should be a big deal. Not nationally. Locally. Both scores listed would be fine. Not 30+ scores, but maybe the top 10. And your overpriced/chinsey 25th+ Anniversary games aren't cutting it. Slapping together a cabinet with pixelated cheesy side art/control panel overlays/marquees, microswitch (gasp) buttons and joys and 25" monitors ain't cutting it. Bigger is not always better. Design the cabinets that made video gaming proprietary, unique, uncopyable and interesting again. Double sided mirrors. Backgrounds. Blacklights. Iridescent inks. Smaller monitors that don't exploit scan lines and force your eyes to move around the screen unnaturally because it's too large. <sigh> KISS.

...(to the industry): There's a few simple concepts for you to digest. And all for free no less. lol Good luck!

Wow! Well said!

Arcade licenses and associated fees need to be abolished as well.