16 replies to this topic

[Scott Stilphen]

http://www.erasmatazz.com/

[Tempest]

Interesting. I've heard Chris be harsh on Atari before though. I'm sure Howard put the best face on Atari histroy, but that's what most people want. Most people don't want to hear about all the bad things that brought down their favorite company, they want to hear the good stuff and how everyone was having fun.

Tempest

[Agent57]

I am curious about his version of how Tod Frye managed to get his 10 cents per cart royalties for doing PacMan. Did Atari offer this to him as an incentive or did Tod realize he had them over a barrel and demand the royalties? Hmm...I know what I would have done if I was in his shoes!

About Chris' missive, what did he expect to see in those videos? I personally wanted to hear about 2600 programmers and how fun it was to work at Atari and that's exactly what HSW gave us. I, for one, didn't want to hear about the inter-departmental BS that went on at Atari, as EVERY office has the same politics.

As Scott S. has said, it was the 2600 programmers who made Atari what it was and Howard's videos are a fitting tribute to them.

[JCroniger]

I like the essay. It's interesting to get the larger perspective.

[Tempest]

If you really want to see all the interdepartmental BS going on, try reading the internal Atari Vax mails sometime. It's amazing how much sniping and bickering went on between departments. There always seemed to be trouble in paradise right below the surface. Personally I find it depressing.

Tempest

[MrRetroGamer]

Tempest said:

If you really want to see all the interdepartmental BS going on, try reading the internal Atari Vax mails sometime Tempest

Where can we find these Vax mails to read?

[oesii]

MrRetroGamer said:

Tempest said:

If you really want to see all the interdepartmental BS going on, try reading the internal Atari Vax mails sometime Tempest

Where can we find these Vax mails to read?

There are ten years of mails here:

http://www.jmargolin...vmail/vmail.htm

from 82-92, I don't know how much BS is in these

[Tempest]

Oh yeah I forgot to post the link. Sorry about that.

Tempest

[oesii]

Tempest said:

Oh yeah I forgot to post the link.  Sorry about that.

Tempest

Hey, I thought you were hoarding all the mails for yourself

[Happy_Dude]

Internal Mail hrmmm?

If someone got the mail off Atari's VAX systems is it
plauseable that someone got unmade prototypes or code
aswell?

[Tempest]

Quote

If someone got the mail off Atari's VAX systems is it  
plauseable that someone got unmade prototypes or code  
aswell?

It's possible that the backup tapes for some games could exist somewhere, but these Vax mails are something totally different. Basically these are the e-mail records of the Atari Arcade division (mostly). They're not the game backup information, those were stored elsewhere.

Tempest

[Scott Stilphen]

For him to call it 'revisionist history' is incorrect. The definition of that means attempting to re-write history by altering the facts, and I don't see any examples of that here. The video is of course biased towards towards the VCS department (perhaps it should have included a subtitle alluding to that...), but the VCS was by far the most influential product ever produced by Atari, and that's logically the audience you would target. Not to say he couldn't add other volumes covering other aspects of the company, but he's simply sticking to what he knows best.

As for it failing to cover the internal conflicts, I doubt you'll find many people willing to spend their time and money on 20-year-old tales of bickering, just as I doubt Warshaw would be willing to interview any ex-marketing folks. At Atari, the marketing department was marketing run amok. I've talked at length with close to a dozen ex-Atari programmers, and this is a common thread with all of them - here you had a department comprised of people who were totally unfamiliar with the product, and yet had influence over what products should be created and who to market them to! With that scenario, it's inevitable there's going to be friction with other departments. Marketing and lack of recognition (both artistically and financially) were the major reasons people left. Given that background, I wouldn't expect to see an opposing viewpoint from a story told soley by programmers.

Ironically some of the facts Crawford stated might be considered revisionist history. Since he was only in the VCS department between 79-80, any information he knows about it is second-hand at best. On Tod Frye and Pac-Man: Atari created the situation that led to him demanding the creation of a royalty program (and rightly so), but another important factor here Crawford didn't mention is that at that time both Frye and Warshaw were approached by 20th Century Fox to head up a VCS programming division. He might not have been as outspoken without that offer to fall back on if Atari called his "bluff". If he either took or erased his Pac-Man code, he could have faced a lawsuit or even criminal action (and/or possibly leading to him being 'blackballed' in the industry). At worst, the game would have been delayed, which is what should have happened all along. Over the years the blame has fallen squarely on Tod, but Atari had the final say and chose to release it.

The deal for the E.T. home rights was completed at the end of July, not June, giving Warshaw at most 6 weeks to program it, not 9. Also, his comment that his game "would make the movie famous" was certainly spoken in jest, if true (given his persona as being the "stand up comedian" of the department, it's certainly plausible!), since at that point the movie was already the highest-grossing film of all time. In his own words he admitted the game's concept was weak, but from a technical viewpoint, I think did an incredible job with it. Whether someone else could have done a better job is debatable. In this case, Atari (1) paid far too much for the rights - something like 35 million (?), (2) didn't allow enough programming time, and (3) over-produced the game, which led to the infamous landfill story. Even accounting for all returns, the game sold over 1 million copies, but they produced approx. 4 million! They would have had to sell at least half that to break even. They knew it was a risky gamble to take, especially after Pac-Man.

In both situations, Frye and Warshaw took advantage of a company that routinely took advantage of its employees - namely the programmers. They both saw an opportunity of a lifetime and took it, and I'm sure neither have any second-thoughts about it. Would you?

[MegaManFan]

Scott Stilphen said:

In both situations, Frye and Warshaw took advantage of a company that routinely took advantage of its employees - namely the programmers.  They both saw an opportunity of a lifetime and took it, and I'm sure neither have any second-thoughts about  it.  Would you?

No diggity, no doubt. It's just ironic they cashed in on two of the crappiest Atari games of all time, while a lot of the great ones not only were uncredited work but were done on salary for no royalties or the slightest compensation possible. It was exactly that kind of short-sighted thinking on Atari's part that lead to Activision becoming so big/successful.

[Scott Stilphen]

Speaking of Crawford, I found this:

From: KIM::SALWITZ 26-APR-1984 18:50
To: @SYS$MAIL:JUNK
Subj: H


Here we go again...

Although I have many "real" concerns in my life (ie: World peace, Nuclear diarmement, Governmental sanity) I find myself from time to time getting really tense about something trivial. In Junes' Antic (page 79) there is an add. for a new book..

$14.95... "THE ART OF COMPUTER GAME DESIGN: REFLECTION OF A MASTER GAME DESIGNER"

written by none other than... CHRIS CRAWFORD (ex Atari programmer). " ... Chris Crawford, Atari programmer PAR EXCELLENCE, teaches this and other noteworthy lessons... "

peee-ewww. I have never met this man.. (ie.. I hold him no grudge) I have seen him on " Bits Bytes and Buzzwords" (2 weeks ago) He has been billed as THE Atari game Wizard (some say he isn't even a wizard.. let alone the ONLY one.)

WHY ???

It should be noted that by all indications Atari itself responsible for this (grossly incorrect) billing. Mr Crawford has just helped it along. nothing else to say..
jfs.
( one of the Atari group of programmers.)

[DanBoris]

Scott Stilphen said:

written by none other than... CHRIS CRAWFORD (ex Atari programmer). " ... Chris Crawford, Atari programmer PAR EXCELLENCE,  teaches this and other noteworthy lessons... "

peee-ewww. I have never met this man.. (ie.. I hold him no grudge) I have seen him on " Bits Bytes and Buzzwords" (2 weeks ago) He has been billed as THE Atari game Wizard  (some say he isn't even a wizard.. let alone the ONLY one.)  

WHY ???

This is suprising since in 1982 he wrote one of the greatest books on Atari 8-bit programming, De-Re-Atari. Not to mention that in 1981 he wrote Eastern Front, arguably one of the best Atari 8-bit games.

Dan

[atarifan49]

DanBoris said:

Scott Stilphen said:

written by none other than... CHRIS CRAWFORD (ex Atari programmer). " ... Chris Crawford, Atari programmer PAR EXCELLENCE,  teaches this and other noteworthy lessons... "

peee-ewww. I have never met this man.. (ie.. I hold him no grudge) I have seen him on " Bits Bytes and Buzzwords" (2 weeks ago) He has been billed as THE Atari game Wizard  (some say he isn't even a wizard.. let alone the ONLY one.)  

WHY ???

This is suprising since in 1982 he wrote one of the greatest books on Atari 8-bit programming, De-Re-Atari. Not to mention that in 1981 he wrote Eastern Front, arguably one of the best Atari 8-bit games.

Dan

Rightly so. But remember, Chris was only one of numerous other authors for De Re Atari.

You think Chris is looking back and regretting about not being part of that royality payment?

Scott S., your comment above was dead on. HSW is just sharing the stories of his and fellow 2600 programmers experience at Atari. Yes, HSW likes the claim of fame. But I think he deserves it. And if his antics cause more of the classic game programmers to come out and speak up, then even better!

Chris is welcome to do his version of Once Upon Atari...

That's my two cents...


Glenn

[Christopher Tumber]

What I found amusing is how Crawford complains about the video's "extremely narrow point of view" but then goes on to pin Atari's collapse on two games (Pac-Man and ET)! No mention by Crawford of the loss of key personell to Activision (&etc), or a changing market (the shift to home computers), or Atari's inability to counter Nintendo's innovative gameplay (Super Mario Bros, Zelda, etc), or Atari's inability to shake it's image as a has-been and take advantage of the NES's revitalisation of the market, &etc. Crawford's just as guilty of oversimplifying a complex story as anyone.

Particularly since Crawford complainins that "bad management" as the cause of Atari's woes is an oversimplification after he's just spent his essay outlining how that same "bad management" led to both the Pac-Man and ET debacles. (Insufficient dev time for ET = Bad Management, Poor employee morale leading to Frye's mutiny for for royalties = Bad Management, Placing too much power in a disgruntled employee's hands = Bad Management, Releasing Pac-Man or ET as is = Bad Management, Paying too much for ET's rights = Bad Management, Over producing ET = Bad Management).

It sure reads like Crawford actually agrees with Warshaw's video but they just didn't get around to Crawford's favorite anecdotes...