27 replies to this topic

[Chris Leach]

So today I pop open a link to Sony from my email and I get this User Agreement contract form. The email says there have been changes to my SCEA agreement and I should review them. There are also steps on how to cancel if I do not agree. Well, this just looks like the original document I clicked ok to when I first signed up for online gaming. In this day and age, does anyone really care about minor changes unless they affect them directly and why did I have to reread this long broshure type document instead of Sony just giving me a list of the updates to the document...Man I hate Sony at the moment...

Did anyone else get this and if so did you read it?

[Mord]

Chris Leach, on Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:46 AM, said:

So today I pop open a link to Sony from my email and I get this User Agreement contract form. The email says there have been changes to my SCEA agreement and I should review them. There are also steps on how to cancel if I do not agree. Well, this just looks like the original document I clicked ok to when I first signed up for online gaming. In this day and age, does anyone really care about minor changes unless they affect them directly and why did I have to reread this long broshure type document instead of Sony just giving me a list of the updates to the document...Man I hate Sony at the moment...

Did anyone else get this and if so did you read it?

You realize the reason they give you the entire document to read over again is because the probability is quite likely that the change DOES affect you in some way and they know that people these days will take a look at the book landed in their lap and simply sign.

This lets them do whatever they want, and if you finally notice what it is you lost or agreed to later on down the road, they'll just hold the terms of service up to your face and tell you that you accepted the condition.

This is why they don't give you point form of what changes were actually made, since that makes it far easier to spot the bad stuff being introduced.

[Gabriel]

The main change is some new wording which says you agree that Sony can alter, add, or delete any content or capability on your hardware without your consent, whenever they want and without notification.

[Chris Leach]

Gabriel, on Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:01 AM, said:

The main change is some new wording which says you agree that Sony can alter, add, or delete any content or capability on your hardware without your consent, whenever they want and without notification.

So,
Let's say I disagree with this...I just can't have my ps3 online...?

[Reaperman]

so this tidies up any legal chance of legal action if they continue removing features like linux.

I'm just not getting a warm fuzzy about ps3 these days.

Edited by Reaperman, Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:09 AM.

[HammR25]

Reaperman, on Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:09 AM, said:

so this tidies up any legal chance of legal action if they continue removing features like linux.

I'm just not getting a warm fuzzy about ps3 these days.

It also says that if any of their unasked for updates screw up your system then tough shit.

Quote

11. MAINTENANCE AND UPGRADES

From time to time, it may become necessary for SCEA to provide certain content to you to ensure that Sony Online Services and content offered through Sony Online Services, your PlayStation 3 computer entertainment system, the PSP (PlayStation Portable) system or other SCEA-authorized hardware is functioning properly in accordance with SCEA guidelines.

Some content may be provided automatically without notice when you sign in. Such content may include automatic updates or upgrades which may change your current operating system, cause a loss of data or content or cause a loss of functionalities or utilities.

Such upgrades or updates may be provided for system software for your PlayStation 3 computer entertainment system, the PSP (PlayStation Portable) system, or other SCEA-authorized hardware. Access or use to any system software is subject to terms and conditions of a separate end user license agreement found at http://www.us.playst...com/termsofuse.

You authorize SCEA to provide such content and agree that SCEA shall not be liable for any damages, loss of data or loss of functionalities arising from provision of such content or maintenance services. It is recommended that you regularly back up any archivable data located on the hard disk.

[Chris Leach]

WTF?

Quote

You authorize SCEA to provide such content and agree that SCEA shall not be liable for any damages, loss of data or loss of functionalities arising from provision of such content or maintenance services. It is recommended that you regularly back up any archivable data located on the hard disk.

I am glad that my ps3 is caked in dust and hasnt been turned on for a week or 2...I can go all year without turning it on..I've got my atari...!

[cimerians]

Quote

SCEA may provide you with the ability to buy access to a variety of content

Features, specifications, prices and content are subject to change or withdrawal at
any time and SCEA does not provide any refunds in the event of a price drop, a subsequent
promotional offering or content removal


Although SCEA will try to ensure that all prices, product descriptions, and its associated terms
and conditions are accurate, errors may occur. If we discover an error in the price of items you
have ordered, we will contact you promptly. You will have the option of either reconfirming your
order at the correct price or canceling it. If we are unable to contact you, your order will be
cancelled.

I love the way that what we buy is merely "access" to content. We dont really own what we buy.

The third paragraph is brutal. What about Final Fight? It did NOT list in its description that you must have an internet connection and logged into PSN to play the game.

[Mord]

Chris Leach, on Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:27 AM, said:

WTF?

Quote

You authorize SCEA to provide such content and agree that SCEA shall not be liable for any damages, loss of data or loss of functionalities arising from provision of such content or maintenance services. It is recommended that you regularly back up any archivable data located on the hard disk.

I am glad that my ps3 is caked in dust and hasnt been turned on for a week or 2...I can go all year without turning it on..I've got my atari...!

I would suspect this also means "If we brick your unmodded PS3 with one of our homebrew bricking update attempts, no foul on our part."

[Mendon]

I received the notice about the change to the SCEA agreement, and like many others, I didn't pay much attention to it. But one thing I did notice was a statement that went something like (I don't have the actual wording before me): "If you disagree with the terms of this agreement, you must cancel your PSN account immediately and discontinue use or attempting to use the PSN network in any manner".

I've just about had it with all of these corporations, whether software or hardware, sticking it to the customer as if we'll accept anything they say and do without question or hesitation. DRM's, constant updating, DLC's, exclusive pre-order game content from only one particular retailer, unreliable hardware, not actually owning the product you purchase, misleading game descriptions, and on and on.

The days of console cartridges and a PC with a 14.4 modem connected to a BBS is really, really beginning to look good to me.

Mendon

[moycon]

[rant]

The PS3(Sony) is really pissing me off. Last week I had to take 15-20 minutes to update to remove the ability to install Linux, not a huge deal since I had never planned on doing this anyways, but Jesus I just wanted to turn on my video game console and play a f*ckin game. That's was it. So ok I'm over that, then this crap with Sony basically allowing Capcom to rip people off via their store and just telling angry consumers they should just assume things about the product when they buy it! Now this SCEA announcement about maintenance and then last night I go to play a game, and....that's right, we can't play because there's another F*CKIN system update!!! We just sit in front of the TV with our mics in our hands and our thumbs up our ass waiting till we are allowed to play our PS3 game. We're set to go and we wait another 20 minutes for another update. It's BS. The cherry on the top, they tell us if an update screws up our data on our system we are just shit out of luck. This might not be so bad if they didn't update the thing all the time. Why is it the 360 only needs a system update once or twice a year and the PS3 needs updated twenty times?

The PS3 has moved to the bottom of my current gen console list.
At least the Wii doesn't piss me off when I go to play it.

The PS3 is getting to be so bad even Daytona doesn't try and defend it!

[/rant]

[shadow460]

I noticed it mentions the PSP a lot of times in that agreement. ALL of the registrations are current on all my Sony junk except one of my PSP units, yet I have not recieved an emails from $ony over it.
I suppose, then that the new agreement applies to us as well? Personally I haven't touched PSN in over a year.

Nope, just checked and there's no email from $ony at all. They know I've been a customer of theirs since the PS1, but I guess that doesn't matter much.

[Jess Ragan]

Gabriel, on Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:01 AM, said:

The main change is some new wording which says you agree that Sony can alter, add, or delete any content or capability on your hardware without your consent, whenever they want and without notification.

I don't agree to that! I don't agree to that at all!

Guess whose Playstation 3 will remain offline for a very, very long time? That's right, this guy. Oh well, it'll make a nice Blu-Ray player at least.

[shadow460]

Guess who won't be buying a PS3 at all for a very, very long time. It seems that only those who kissed up to Sony $300 or more for a PS3 are the ones they even remotely care about notifying of their new changes. I guess my PSP-2000 is just too yesterday for them, let alone the PSP-1000 my wife plays.

[AtariLeaf]

You know people keep asking me why I don't buy and play a "modern" console. Its crap like this that keeps me away from ever owning any console that can be remotely hijacked by the company I bought it from.

[potatohead]

It's not worth the hassle.

I like the PS3, and I like it because I don't ever have any expectation of keeping anything on it. To me, it's just an entertainment device, a lot like my cable box, but that I can plug some stuff into.

Anything that matters, goes on a portable USB key, and the rest is just a black box. I know it will be properly dealt with someday, but honestly, who cares?

Our current retro computing experiences are going to be the very best ones. Hardware was just powerful enough to have a lot of fun with, but not so powerful and closed down that the fun can't be had.

I look at this as a good thing for retro. Since the newer machines are decidedly hostile, why not just encourage people to have a good time on the friendly ones, or build their own, like I have with a micro?

Soon, I'm going to 3D print a case and controllers and have my own damn console. That's the future, from where I stand. Sony should just give it up and rent the damn consoles. People could pay annually for service insurance, and just not give a rip.

That's going to be the divide too. It's all going to go down to open hardware and closed hardware, and open gaming / retro gaming, and closed / modern gaming. They are buying the international laws to make it happen, and about the only thing people can do is make damn sure they've got some open hardware to jam on, and enough archive distribution to let it all continue to happen as it is right now.

I am convinced gaming will go the way TV and Radio did. They might get the net too, which is why the archives need to occur. It's just a fact of life, and be glad you are living in interesting, fun, and largely open times!

[xg4bx]

its called covering your ass against frivolous lawsuits, i'm sure its fairly common.

don't like it? blame the hacker douchebags who just can't leave well enough alone. i see no problem with any of this. i'm quite sure the 360 has similar user agreements.

[Bilnick]

xg4bx, on Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:01 AM, said:

its called covering your ass against frivolous lawsuits, i'm sure its fairly common.

don't like it? blame the hacker douchebags who just can't leave well enough alone. i see no problem with any of this. i'm quite sure the 360 has similar user agreements.

Right, because these changes will stop any hacking on the PS3.

If the recent changes are to thwart hackers, how about blame Sony for not making a more secure platform? Besides what someone does with thier PS3 after they purchase it is none of my, or anyone elses, business anyway.

In the grand scheme of things the recent changes to the PS3 will not affect me at all......yet. I didn't use Linux, and had no plans to, so no big loss. What I fear though is Sony deciding to remove PS1 or PS2 backwards compatability for a "more secure platform".

[RevEng]

xg4bx, on Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:01 AM, said:

don't like it? blame the hacker douchebags who just can't leave well enough alone. i see no problem with any of this. i'm quite sure the 360 has similar user agreements.

Yeah! How dare they use the stuff they bought contrary to Sony's business model?!?

[potatohead]

"hacker douchebags" are not the problem. It's ok to learn how stuff works, and it's ok to protect your investments in technology, and it's ok to use something YOU OWN, however you see fit.

If they have such a problem with people using the stuff they sell them, they could always just do rentals, or do contracts as a condition of sale.

Know why they don't?

Because both of those things make it clear that a person isn't actually BUYING a new game system, that's why. They want the cool ownership factor, so people will make INVESTMENTS in their purchase, because doing that has VALUE to them.

If you can't open it, you don't own it. It's all that simple.

[Jess Ragan]

The end result of this, of course, is that holdouts like myself will wait until hackers circumvent the update. Then the Playstation 3 will be torn wide open for homebrew; not just Linux but applications that run directly from the PS3 operating system. I won't pirate anything- PS3 games are crazy huge and there's no point in waiting three days for a download when I could get a game from GameFly in the same amount of time- but I will squeeze every drop of utility out of the system that I can get. I am thoroughly underwhelmed with the Playstation 3 and it's time for this piece of shit to earn its keep.

[shadow460]

There's really no need for piracy. Most of the modern games I've purchased have held their own. Even if I did feel like I had spent too much on a game, it wasn't just crazy overpriced.

then again, I'm not the person who buys five or ten new games each month. I might purchase that many in a year, and the rest are "old".

Why do I have modified or hacked consoles? So that I can do things with them that I want and are legal.

Edited by shadow460, Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:52 PM.

[potatohead]

Shadow, you shouldn't even have to justify that. It's yours, and you get to do stuff with it, period.

The idea that everybody, who gets adventurous with their hardware is pirating, or breaking the law is just silly --and it's going to do us a lot of harm before it's over too.

If we continue down that road, what's going to happen is hardware that is difficult to deal with, and law that's more onerous than we have right now. (which, all things considered, just isn't that bad)

Truth is, the more onerous law is well on it's way through, and it's being written by big companies, without any serious public input. And it's written with the idea that everybody who does anything but the "official" things, is a criminal too. That's not going to be good for anybody.

[moycon]

xg4bx, on Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:01 AM, said:

i see no problem with any of this. i'm quite sure the 360 has similar user agreements.

Seriously? So you have no problem with all the recent BS that's been going on. First this then the whole Capcom deal? So like if one of the many updates screwed up your PS3 you'd just be like. " My console I paid $100s for is bricked? Oh that's cool. That was probably my bad. Besides I'll bet other companies kick consumers in the nuts like this."

Heck no, you be pissed and even more pissed if they told you they weren't going to fix it.

Here is the MS user agreement BTW which seems to me it says you can make a claim and be compensated for crappy maintenance that effects your system, and it looks like you can file a complaint and be compensated for 3rd parties ripping you off as well. (I could be misreading it though seems like they make this stuff hard to read on purpose)

19. LIABILITY LIMITATION.

You can recover from the Microsoft parties for all claims only direct damages up to a total, aggregate amount equal to your Service fee for one month. You cannot recover any other damages, including consequential, lost profits, special, indirect, incidental, or punitive damages.

This limitation applies to anything related to:

* the Service;
* third party content (including code), third party programs, or third party conduct;
* viruses or other disabling features that affect your access to or use of the Service;
* incompatibility between the Service and other services, software, and hardware;
* delays or failures you may have in initiating, conducting, or completing any transmissions or transactions in connection with the Service in an accurate or timely manner; and
* claims for breach of contract; breach of warranty, guarantee, or condition; strict liability; negligence; or other tort.

[potatohead]

Translation: You can either shut up, take our stuff, on our terms, even if we change them and screw you, or go and do your own thing, and we plan on making that as hard as possible, so you will just give up and take our stuff.

That is what all these things come down to. They want the dollars, would prefer that you just buy in fresh for each new use case, because it's easier for them that way, and don't want any risk, or complications that come with ordinary people's rights and responsibilities.

Now you know why I really like retro. The current gen stuff is fun, but I won't be making any significant investment in it, because the end game on this stuff is a short term experience, and that's it. Anything else is a brand new buy in as often as they can convince you to do so.