7800 Atari Corp. Revival

[OldAtarian]

Likewise, the Donkey Kong thing was no BS, and everything was still on the table after Kassar stepped down. Atari/Coleco/Nintendo even had a three way meeting to hash things out that September, at which point things were supposed to move forward. Then Morgan decided to do his freeze of all projects so he could evaluate the company and Nintendo decided not to go with them or anyone else becuase of what stated the industry was moving towards.

Hmm, maybe I'm mistaken but I'd thought the Adam was demonstrated playing Colecovision Donkey Kong (given it was fully compatible with the CV), is that incorrect? (was it a tape version specifically for the Adam?)

 

I'm not sure what you're asking me? I didn't say anything with regards to the Adam not demonstrating Super Donkey Kong. And no it was not the CV version, but an Adam specific version with the extra level, screens, and additional animations, which they had to agree not to sell as part of the outcome.

 

Wait a sec. Atari had the rights to Donkey Kong, but now you're saying this Adam game wasn't really the same Donkey Kong at all but a completely different game, so where was the conflict? Atari's licensing deal was for the arcade version of Donkey Kong which this new game wasn't. That's like having the rights to Space Invaders then suing someone for making Invaders Revenge.

[Retro Rogue]

Wait a sec. Atari had the rights to Donkey Kong,

 

Atari had the rights for home computer conversions of Donkey Kong. Coleco had the rights to console conversions.

 

but now you're saying this Adam game wasn't really the same Donkey Kong at all but a completely different game,

 

No, I stated it wasn't their earlier console version (i.e. ColecoVision's), but an Adam version they had on display. Hence the violation - the Adam is a computer, a platform Atari had exclusive rights to. Likewise I clearly stated the Adam version has "the extra level, screens, and additional animations" missing from the ColecoVision conversion. It had all the things from the arcade Donkey Kong that were left out by Coleco when they made their CV conversion. That in no way states what you're alluding to, like they made up a new Donkey Kong game.

 

so where was the conflict?

 

See above, it's pretty clear.

 

Atari's licensing deal was for the arcade version of Donkey Kong which this new game wasn't. That's like having the rights to Space Invaders then suing someone for making Invaders Revenge.

 

Please tell me you're not really Carmel under a new account. You're going off on another tangent based on faulty understanding of given facts.

[prostx23]

I find this topic very facinating. It seems to put to rest some of the myths that have been circulating for years. Primarily that Jack Tramiel was dead set against releasing the Atari 7800, and only did finally release it as a last resort. Where did those stories start?

 

Mike

[carmel_andrews]

Wait a sec. Atari had the rights to Donkey Kong,

 

Atari had the rights for home computer conversions of Donkey Kong. Coleco had the rights to console conversions.

 

but now you're saying this Adam game wasn't really the same Donkey Kong at all but a completely different game,

 

No, I stated it wasn't their earlier console version (i.e. ColecoVision's), but an Adam version they had on display. Hence the violation - the Adam is a computer, a platform Atari had exclusive rights to. Likewise I clearly stated the Adam version has "the extra level, screens, and additional animations" missing from the ColecoVision conversion. It had all the things from the arcade Donkey Kong that were left out by Coleco when they made their CV conversion. That in no way states what you're alluding to, like they made up a new Donkey Kong game.

 

so where was the conflict?

 

See above, it's pretty clear.

 

Atari's licensing deal was for the arcade version of Donkey Kong which this new game wasn't. That's like having the rights to Space Invaders then suing someone for making Invaders Revenge.

 

Please tell me you're not really Carmel under a new account. You're going off on another tangent based on faulty understanding of given facts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

excuse me....don't bloody bring me into your arguments

[Atarifever]

I find this topic very facinating. It seems to put to rest some of the myths that have been circulating for years. Primarily that Jack Tramiel was dead set against releasing the Atari 7800, and only did finally release it as a last resort. Where did those stories start?

 

Mike

I've spent too many forum posts defending the Tramiels without this information. Now the Tramiel haters really have little left to bash them with. Like it or not, Tramiel WAS Atari for longer than anyone else. People like to point out all of their mistakes. They don't like to point out that under Tramiel Atari went from bleeding hundreds of millions to turning huge profits. This while its two major competitors were Commodore and Nintendo in their primes. I'd like to see anyone here have done that. The market Atari was in when Tramiel took over was one that no one, given a choice, would choose to enter, as there was too much competition in computers and too much going against the videogame component early on, and too much competition from Nintendo afterwards. That they held out as long as they did, and actually excelled financially for awhile, is amazing.

[DracIsBack]

People like to point out all of their mistakes.

 

Armchair CEO syndrome. It's human nature for forum posters to take a break from running their old multi-million dollar companies to provide commentary on Tramiel's strategy with the benefit of hindsight and without having all the data points that Tramiel operated under in their line of sight.

[Goochman]

One can only wonder what the Video Game industry would be like today if Atari decided to offer the NES in the US vs the 7800................

Edited October 27, 2010 by Goochman

[OldAtarian]

I find this topic very facinating. It seems to put to rest some of the myths that have been circulating for years. Primarily that Jack Tramiel was dead set against releasing the Atari 7800, and only did finally release it as a last resort. Where did those stories start?

 

Mike

I've spent too many forum posts defending the Tramiels without this information. Now the Tramiel haters really have little left to bash them with. Like it or not, Tramiel WAS Atari for longer than anyone else. People like to point out all of their mistakes. They don't like to point out that under Tramiel Atari went from bleeding hundreds of millions to turning huge profits. This while its two major competitors were Commodore and Nintendo in their primes. I'd like to see anyone here have done that. The market Atari was in when Tramiel took over was one that no one, given a choice, would choose to enter, as there was too much competition in computers and too much going against the videogame component early on, and too much competition from Nintendo afterwards. That they held out as long as they did, and actually excelled financially for awhile, is amazing.

 

When was Atari ever turning huge profits? Every product released under Tramiel ultimately failed. Atari hasn't made a profit since Nolan Bushnell owned it.

Edited October 27, 2010 by OldAtarian

[The_Laird]

Thats totally wrong.

 

The ST was a massive success (mainly in the UK and Europe) and made Atari alot of money.

The 7800 sold nearly 4 million units in the US with hardly any advertising, that's a success in my book.

The Lynx sold between 2 and 5 million units worldwide, again with little advertising.

The 2600 Jr. was sold cheap and helped clear alot of old inventory so was a great little money spinner.

 

The Jag was a failure and the Falcon was far too late to the market, it was only these later machines that didn't make money.

[Retro Rogue]

When was Atari ever turning huge profits? Every product released under Tramiel ultimately failed. Atari hasn't made a profit since Nolan Bushnell owned it.

 

Completely and utterly wrong. That cinches it, you've got to be Carmel or a blood relative. 1) Atari was almost constantly on the edge of bankruptcy under him. The highest were profits under him were $40 million in 1977 (sales of $120 million), which dropped drastically to $2.7 million in 1978 and he then left in December of that year. 2) Profits soared to a high of $323.3 Million (sales of $2 billion) after his departure. Atari was at it's most profitable *after* Nolan. 3) Laird already addressed Tramiel's Atari Corporation products and how many were sold, but I'll add that Tramiel was able to wipe out all of Warner's debt by 1986 (which is called bringing it in to the black) and have profits $21 million on sales $165 million over a nnine month period alone that year, which only went up further the next year.

[Atarifever]

 

 

When was Atari ever turning huge profits? Every product released under Tramiel ultimately failed. Atari hasn't made a profit since Nolan Bushnell owned it.

IIRC he managed the company, in just a couple of years, from bleeding well over $100 million a year to being a Fortune 500 company. The computer line was in something like second place worldwide for a number of years. The 2600 saw (as Curt's numbers have demonstrated) huge sales of software and Jr. hardware. Taken together, the 2600, 7800, and XEGS sales likely put Atari consoles in second place in sales until the Sega Genesis. For a time the company was quite successful. Like most computer companies, the future would not be kind to them, but Commodore and Sinclair are hardly juggernauts today either, now are they?

 

And for perspective, let's look at some other console makers. How is NEC doing today? How was Magnavox's latest console received? Can you get SNK's latest system at Wal-Mart? What about Sega? Philips? Tramiel Atari released and supported the 2600 Jr., the 7800, the XEGS, the Lynx, and the Jaguar over a period of a decade. On much of that, they turned a profit. That is much, much more than most companies can claim. Even Sega (which I love) only sold hardware in North America for about the same amount of time, and all those other companies failed much more quickly.

[kool kitty89]

I've spent too many forum posts defending the Tramiels without this information. Now the Tramiel haters really have little left to bash them with. Like it or not, Tramiel WAS Atari for longer than anyone else.

The Tramiel family perhaps, but didn't Jack step down by '89 with Sam Taking over? (so that would be 4-5 years with Jack heading things... I believe some have argued that Sam was less capable at managing things and that was part of the reason for Atari Corp's decline in the early 90s -on the entertainment side it might also have had to do with Katz leaving and his successors being less capable, but I'm not sure -I can't help but wonder how Katz might have managed the Lynx, let alone the Jaguar)

 

People like to point out all of their mistakes. They don't like to point out that under Tramiel Atari went from bleeding hundreds of millions to turning huge profits. This while its two major competitors were Commodore and Nintendo in their primes. I'd like to see anyone here have done that.

Well, Atari had a very good chance of turning around and being stronger than Atari Corp was with Morgan's reorganization efforts and the 1984 split/sale did delay/complicate/weaken the position on the market in general and lost a lot of potential, but that wasn't really Tramiel's fault but Warner's for selling the company and in particular managing the split in a rather abrupt sloppy manner. (had they not split up, they wouldn't have lost the consumer game programmers, may have continued developing the advanced 16-bit computers, expanded the 7800 test market in late Summer of '84 with further market expansion following to a national launch plus added peripherals and the adapter for the 5200, the Amiga based console to arrive that fall as well -or likely a major lawsuit against Amiga/Commodore, possibly getting the revised 5200 controllers -not sure if the 5200 Jr was still planned or if that had been dropped entirely in favor of the 7800, and continued support for the 600/800XL)

 

When was Atari ever turning huge profits? Every product released under Tramiel ultimately failed. Atari hasn't made a profit since Nolan Bushnell owned it.

:rofl: :lawl:

 

 

How is NEC doing today?

Hmm, I think NEC is doing pretty well though they're not in the console market anymore, granted they don't have the massive monopoly on home computers that they did in the 80s and early 90s in Japan. (probably a big part of why they couldn't keep up with Sony in the mid 90s -the bottom had just fallen out of their monopoly with DOS PCs coming in- and probably why the PC FX was rushed and botched like it was)

 

I think Magnavox, Panasonic, and Phillips are doing fine too. (I think Panasonic is actually planning a new handheld game system)

 

Sega still exists, but more of a shadow of what they were in the 80s and 90s. (albeit not totally unlike Atari Games in the late 80s and early 90s compared to the home/arcade games of the 70s and early 80s) What happened to Atari Games was a fair bit different than Atari Corp though, but in the case of Corp I can't really argue that what they did with getting out of the industry in '96 wasn't in their best interests. (granted the whole Jaguar lifecycle had been managed more as a personal investment of the Tramiels vs Atari Corp itself -ie focusing more on keeping their financial stability than trying to really break into the market and risk their own funds even more so in the context of Sony entering the market -and the Jaguar definitely turned the company around from '93 to '96 from debt back into the black -facilitating the success of some lawsuits as well- and putting them in the very positive potion for liquidating the company in '96)

 

 

The Jag was a failure and the Falcon was far too late to the market, it was only these later machines that didn't make money.

See above, the Jaguar may have been a market failure, but it wasn't a business failure. (in fact it was a critical success for Atari Corp at the time)

 

For failures the Falcon probably does apply and the Transputer Workstation, not sure if the TT030 turned a profit either. (though it didn't make the impact desired)

Maybe I'm not looking at it with enough detail, but it seems like Atari Corp sort of screwed up with the ST at the end of the 80s and early 90s with rather limited upgrades that were a bit late (the STe came out at a point where it was really behind both mid-range PCs and still behind the Amiga -the latter mattering more for Europe) and then pushing more high-end with the TT without a lower-end /mid-range counterpart with similar video enhancement. (no lower end 68020/030 models prior to the Falcon or 16 MHz 68k models until the MEGA STE in '91 -it seems something like an STe with 16 MHz 68k with optional FPU and added TT SHIFTER video would have been good alongside the TT in '90 though more so if the STe had video upgrades in the first place -not all the TT modes, but a 320x200 256 color mode at least and probably a 640x200 16-color mode if not expanded 640x400/480 modes -obviously for dedicated RGB/VGA monitors only)

Edited October 27, 2010 by kool kitty89

[OldAtarian]

"See above, the Jaguar may have been a market failure, but it wasn't a business failure. (in fact it was a critical success for Atari Corp at the time)"

 

 

It's funny, then isn't it, how Atari discontinued all other product lines and bet the farm on the Jaguar and then folded itself into JTS not long after. Resounding success that was, eh? And whatever happened to JT's famous quote of Atari being a computer company now? The 2600 was kept in production, the 7800 was released, the ST was half assedly handled in the US, and then later all computer lines were canceled to devote resources to the Jaguar. Some computer company.

Edited October 28, 2010 by OldAtarian

[The_Laird]

That famous quote was debunked some time ago now, once again you need to read what Marty (wgungfu) has already posted.

[Atarifever]

 

 

I think Magnavox, Panasonic, and Phillips are doing fine too. (I think Panasonic is actually planning a new handheld game system)

I was only highlighting that they are all out of the console business. I am just illustrating that it is a tough market to succeed in, and most everyone who was ever in that space is now out of it, not just Atari. I know those companies are doing fine, but the fact that they are doing fine and are still all out of the hardware market shows how amazing it was that the Tramiels lasted as long as they did, and released as much product as they managed to.

 

 

See above, the Jaguar may have been a market failure, but it wasn't a business failure. (in fact it was a critical success for Atari Corp at the time)

Can you give me a source on this? This is the ultimate piece of information I would need to bash Tramiel bashers with. Here is the story of Tramiel Atari as most people see it:

 

"Once Nolan Bushnell sold Atari for $100 billion to Warner, Warner released E.T., which single handedly destroyed the videogame market until the NES came out. When Tramiel was offered the rights to the NES, Sega Genesis, and iPhone, he threw them all in the floor and screamed 'we make computers and these things will all fail because they suck.' Then he released the Lynx to sell batteries, and then he released the Jaguar, which lost $100 billion and was a joke from day one, and everyone knew it sucked forever and had no games."

 

It has become pretty obvious that in reality some of Atari's best financial management was actually under the Tramiels, and to be able to demonstrate that the Jaguar actually kept the company in the black, rather than bankrupting it, really highlights that any big failings for Atari seem to have occurred either before or after the Tramiel's watch. If you can give me proof of the Jaguar putting them in the black, Tramiel Atari's game division would look like this:

2600 Jr. and new 2600 software: profit

7800 and 7800 software: profit

8-bit computer line and game software: profit

Lynx: ?

Jaguar: profit

 

That's hardly the failed, unsuccessful company people think it was.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Atarifever

[DracIsBack]

Jaguar: profit

 

Agree on most of your points, but not this. Atari hemoraged money every single quarter they had the Jaguar. Check the annual reports. At some points they were losing more money than they earned in revenue.

[OldAtarian]

That famous quote was debunked some time ago now, once again you need to read what Marty (wgungfu) has already posted.

 

Debunked? Not hardly.

 

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.05/history_pr.html

 

scroll down to where Jerry Jessop (an Atari engineer) says this

 

"Brad Saville was a production guy at Atari during the Tramiel days. When the 7800 machine was finished, he went to Tramiel's office to present it. Brad said Tramiel swept the prototype right off his desk and onto the floor, yelling, "We're a computer company now!"

 

So here we have a quote from someone WHO WAS THERE saying that the quote actually happened. Not only that, but that JT wanted nothing to do with the 7800, so that kinda debunks all of your assertions that JT wanted to sell the 7800 all along and it wasn't a response to Nintendo.

[ApolloBoy]

So here we have a quote from someone WHO WAS THERE saying that the quote actually happened.

Except Jessop wasn't actually there and was recounting what someone else said. How can you be absolutely sure that's what happened?

[kool kitty89]

"See above, the Jaguar may have been a market failure, but it wasn't a business failure. (in fact it was a critical success for Atari Corp at the time)"

 

 

It's funny, then isn't it, how Atari discontinued all other product lines and bet the farm on the Jaguar and then folded itself into JTS not long after. Resounding success that was, eh?

Hell yes it was, it took atari out of debt they had in '93 and put them in the profitable position they were in to liquidate the company in '96. Otherwise they'd quite possibly have not been able to win the pending lawsuits at the time, and quite possibly have gone bankrupt. (something that didn't ever happen to any of the Ataris)

Not a resounding market success, but a critical business success that more or less saved the company in the short term. (they were in a better position in '96 by far than '93, but with massive competition on the market and Sam's heart attack they decided to liquidate the company -had they kept pushing, they had the jag duo on the table and the Jaguar II in development and supposed to be ready for market by the end of '96 -it was far more capable in general and more developer friendly, but hardware and developer support doesn't get you much without competitive funding)

 

And they didn't even come close to betting the farm on the Jag, that's one reason it didn't sell better (the Tramiels were a bit conservative and cautious, not wanting to throw a bunch of private savings at it), and indeed it would have been a big risk that would not have paid off if they couldn't establish a strong niche prior to Sony hitting big on the market in '95/96.

They didn't have any other products to really push at the time: the 2600 and 7800 were dead, the computer lines were pretty much dead as well, and the Lynx was there but not substantial enough to do keep them afloat in '93. (what put them in that position is another matter though, and some might blame Sam Tramiel at not being as capable as his father and possibly Katz's successors not being as capable at managing the entertainment division -and the series of events that led to no direct successor to the 7800 being launched: the ST derived console moved on to the Panther which was canceled in favor of the Jaguar in 1990 -it make you wonder if they could have beefed up the Lynx hardware and worked that into a home console for 1990 or used the Slipstream ASIC that Flare had developed prior to the Jaguar)

 

They rushed out the 1993 test market to drum up investor interest with the hype: and it worked, they got the support they needed to make a mass market release in '94. (including IBM's support) Not nearly enough to compete directly with other major players on the market in '95 though. (it didn't help that the Jaguar was released during the middle of the market wide slump in sales either) Management was a problem, but that ties into lacking funding as well. (to some extent)

 

We discussed this at length before:

if you want to take over the gaming world, you can go down to defeat looking like a horses ass and disrespected as was the case, OR you can give yourself a fighting chance, knowing it's now or never

 

You sound like Ted Hoff. Ted Hoff is a big part of the story of a scrappy little company named Intel. Heard of that one?

 

Atari hired him in mid 1995 to turn Atari around, and he ended up quitting in disgust shortly after. He said the Tramiels were not interested in 'betting the company' on the Jaguar, instead they were jealously guarding it like a personal investment. Three months later Atari was sold and the Tramiels got enough money to retire happily. So they made the right decision... for themselves!

 

But it's true that you have to take huge risks if you're a little company competing with the big boys. Atari didn't.

 

- KS

Atari was just too messed up I think by the time they got to the Jaguar. They were clearly in a bad situation and the Jaguar was a last ditch effort. It will be remembered fondly for years to come.

 

This is basically how I feel. There are tons of neat what-ifs you can play with the Jaguar technology, but I don't think technology was enough to save the Jag. There were much bigger business problems, and a lot of what is most wrong with the Jaguar (lack of dev tools, lack of testing) is more due to the lack of engineering resources that again trace right back to the management's dire problems with cash flow, profitability, 3rd party relationships, retail channels, etc, etc.

 

- KS

Dont even try to tell me the Tramiels did not have personal cash...if they really cared, they'd have done so

and at the same time made it less of a risk and more of a sure thing.

 

You're reminding me of this great quote from Martin Brennan (co-inventor of the Jaguar):

Sony announced that they were going to spend 200 million dollars acquiring software for the Playstation. They'd hired Chicago's rock café and invited software developers to come to it.

 

When you have pockets that deep you're not going to fail. I happen to know that at that time the Atari family had made 60 million dollars cash from the sale of some land in Taiwan that they had judiciously purchased.

 

They must have considered putting their 60 million up against Sony's 200 million dollars - I'm not sure I'd have made any other choice than theirs. You can't compete with that - even if you have a better product or not.

 

He's forgiving about it, but he's saying the same thing. The Tramiels never really bet the farm on the Jaguar.

 

- KS

Edit, see the additional quote below, summarizes things better.

 

And whatever happened to JT's famous quote of Atari being a computer company now? The 2600 was kept in production, the 7800 was released, the ST was half assedly handled in the US, and then later all computer lines were canceled to devote resources to the Jaguar. Some computer company.

Totally false: Tramiel may not have been particularly interested in games, but he knew he'd have to rely on them to support Atari, it was simple business. They wanted to release the 7800 from the start, but Warner contended ownership: the GGC deal for the 7800/MARIA/7800 launch games had been made directly with Warner (not Atari) and thus Warner figured that it was NOT part of the sale to Tramiel and wanted Tramiel to pay for that separately: that went back and forth until early 1985 iirc when Tramiel finally relented and paid up and at about the same time started trying to get Mike Katz onboard to manage the game related stuff (Katz was then head of Epyx) and Katz came onboard with the condition that Tramiel create a dedicated enterntaiment division at Atari Corp.

 

And iirc the 2600 wasn't kept in production as such, but existin stockpiles were sold through 1985 (when they ran out) and the 2600 Jr project was completed. (I'm not sure if that was released in late '85 or early '86, but I know Katz stated that their 1985 2600 sales were limited by capacity, the 7800 was definitely released in early '86)

Nintendo had absolutely nothing to do with the release of the 7800 or 2600 Jr though, nothing at all. (and Nintendo's efforts had been viewed as failed in early 1986 -the sentiments expressed at Winter CES of '86, but that would change a few months later after the expanded tests and release of SMB)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think Magnavox, Panasonic, and Phillips are doing fine too. (I think Panasonic is actually planning a new handheld game system)

I was only highlighting that they are all out of the console business. I am just illustrating that it is a tough market to succeed in, and most everyone who was ever in that space is now out of it, not just Atari. I know those companies are doing fine, but the fact that they are doing fine and are still all out of the hardware market shows how amazing it was that the Tramiels lasted as long as they did, and released as much product as they managed to.

True, but some that are still in the business aren't even successful. The only reason MS doesn't drop out is almost certainly PR related combined with the fact that their profits from other divisions offset losses. (they may have finally started turning a profit through the xbox division, but like last generation that came late and likely won't be enough to go beyond back losses -though that may finally change next generation and probably would have changed this gen had they not screwed up the hardware)

If Sega had had that sort of luxury, they'd likely still be in the hardware business. (as it was, the loss of pretty much all their other consumer products in the Saturn years combined with the decline of the arcade business meant they had no buffers to speak of -they might have been able to push more into the PC market, but they didn't -and oddly gradually phased that out post Dreamcast)

 

Can you give me a source on this? This is the ultimate piece of information I would need to bash Tramiel bashers with. Here is the story of Tramiel Atari as most people see it:

It's buried in the 1993 jaguar thread that I quoted from above... I might be able to dig it up again.

This is an interesting post I found, btu I still haven't found the main one I was looking for...

See, now a few years ago I might've whole heartedly agreed with you Steve, but I've gotten a real insider view of the happenings within Atari from emails and internal memo's. There was nothing spiteful or vindictive about the business done by the Tramiels. Now, I don't have anything conclusive, but I will say, judging from the press releases to the stock increasing to the sale of stock and profit taking --- yeah I'd say there was perhaps some monkey business with generating capital from false promises, which were so many from Atari, that many started to doubt anything would come out of the company, but then some real gem's like the laser printers, Lynx, Portfolio, the TT030 would come out and surprise everyone.

 

Now by the time 1991-1992 had rolled around, the Tramiels saw the writing on the wall, computer sales were in sharp decline and a decision had to be made - so literally everything would be stopped and all resources would go to a new gaming platform - that being the Jaguar 64, so it was really a matter of economics and cashflow more then anything else.

 

Unfortunately for the Tramiels, they got seriously hosed on the Jaguar system by their developers who used the platform more as a learning tool, then to produce good quality games. The lessons learned from the Jaguar by developers was taken to the Playstation to develop - which, lets face it, thanks to insight by Sony - had one of the single strongest and best created developer support networks ever seen for a gaming platform ever - in fact, Sony stumbled horribly by not having the same caliper of support when the PS2 came out.

 

 

 

Curt

 

It seems like Atari Corp under Jack was managed pretty well (taking the massive debt from Warner and turning around to make Atari Corp profitable). It seems more like things started falling apart after Sam took over in the late 80s.

 

The same motive was behind Jack too...they dumped the ST like a used condom once they felt Jag would rule the world.

sorry anyone who fires the guy responsible for the 7800 is not any better. That machine could have saved Atari's game

name if they did not sit on it while Nintendo took over the world.

Edit, found the one I was looking for:

If you want to be a little more cynical about it, you could say that the Jaguar did exactly what it was intended to.

 

Before the Jaguar announcement, Atari was on its last legs, in debt, and the stock price was in the dumps. Then the Jaguar hype began. The stock price shot up (for a while), they were able to partner up with businesses that normally wouldn't have worked with a failing company (IBM, TWI), and they survived long enough to beat Sega in court and collect $90M in cash.

 

So if you believe Atari was already doomed by 1991 (I do), then the Jaguar was a great example of taking lemons and making lemonade.

 

By the time the Tramiels shut down Atari in 1996, the financial position of the company was healthy enough to allow them to completely liquidate their holdings and walk away with millions of dollars. Without the Jaguar, they would have been bankrupt.

 

It's easy to armchair quarterback, but I think it's remarkable Atari shipped hundreds of thousands of Jaguars and millions of game cartridges, considering their business reputation and financial situation. They were a skeleton of a company with under 100 people for most of the Jaguar's life. Comparing them to Sony or Sega is comparing David to Goliath.

 

From that perspective, I don't think the Panther could have worked. Its specs were inferior in almost every way to its 16-bit competitors. The Jaguar on the other hand, had amazing specs for its day. Those specs helped prop up Atari stock long enough to engineer a somewhat happier ending for Atari.

 

- KS

It turned out to be in a different thread afterall.

 

 

 

----

"Once Nolan Bushnell sold Atari for $100 billion to Warner, Warner released E.T., which single handedly destroyed the videogame market until the NES came out. When Tramiel was offered the rights to the NES, Sega Genesis, and iPhone, he threw them all in the floor and screamed 'we make computers and these things will all fail because they suck.' Then he released the Lynx to sell batteries, and then he released the Jaguar, which lost $100 billion and was a joke from day one, and everyone knew it sucked forever and had no games."

I won't be able to wipe the smile off my face for a while.

 

 

It has become pretty obvious that in reality some of Atari's best financial management was actually under the Tramiels, and to be able to demonstrate that the Jaguar actually kept the company in the black, rather than bankrupting it, really highlights that any big failings for Atari seem to have occurred either before or after the Tramiel's watch. If you can give me proof of the Jaguar putting them in the black, Tramiel Atari's game division would look like this:

2600 Jr. and new 2600 software: profit

7800 and 7800 software: profit

8-bit computer line and game software: profit

Lynx: ?

Jaguar: profit

The best under Atari Inc was almost certainly with Morgan in charge... too bad he didn't replace Kassar a year earlier.

The one notably bad thing Morgan did do was more of a "right thing at the wrong time" sort of case with the across the board hold on operations in fall of 1983 for an evaluation of the company. (among other things it left the holiday season wide open for Commodore at a time when the 800XL and 600XL could have really started taking off) Hell, had there been a hold in fall of '82, maybe some of the bigger mistakes may have actually been avoided or curtailed -5200, 1200XL, ET. (and while it may have opened the doors for more competition, that might have actually been a good thing, namely with more market share distribution and Atari not so much of a monopoly, the market could have been more stable and resistant to collapse)

Edited October 28, 2010 by kool kitty89

[Retro Rogue]

That famous quote was debunked some time ago now, once again you need to read what Marty (wgungfu) has already posted.

 

Debunked? Not hardly.

 

Completely and utterly debunked.

 

scroll down to where Jerry Jessop (an Atari engineer) says this

 

"Brad Saville was a production guy at Atari during the Tramiel days. When the 7800 machine was finished, he went to Tramiel's office to present it. Brad said Tramiel swept the prototype right off his desk and onto the floor, yelling, "We're a computer company now!"

 

So here we have a quote from someone WHO WAS THERE saying that the quote actually happened. Not only that, but that JT wanted nothing to do with the 7800, so that kinda debunks all of your assertions that JT wanted to sell the 7800 all along and it wasn't a response to Nintendo.

 

As was already pointed out, Jerry was not there, he was recounting a story told to him which was just that - a story. Jerry's a friend of mine via rgvc, and I'm fully aware of what his work did or did not entail at Atari Inc. and very briefly at Corp. (Which apparently you're not). Likewise Curt and I exhaustively researched this, pouring over actual internal emails, documents, talking *directly* to people involved at Atari and GCC, and more. The cost reduced 2600 project started up immediately. Negotiations for various projects that had actually been under Warner and not Atari, which included the 7800 and Amiga, started in very early August '84. The Amiga contract was successfully negotiated over to Jack, the 7800 was not and there was haggling over who owed GCC for the MARIA and 10 launch titles. This is when Jack was approached by Saville, apparently not knowing what was going on, and pushing for Jack to release something he didn't have the rights for yet. Jack finally relented to Warner's position that he and not them were responsible if he wanted ownership, and paid GCC that May '85 for MARIA, that is *fact*. Both people on the GCC side (which Curt has directly talked to) and Atari Corp. side (I directly talked to Leonard Tramiel) have verified that. He then paid for the 10 launch titles that summer of '85 and began looking for someone to head a consumer entertainment division, that is *fact*. He approached Mike Katz, then heading Epyx, that August of '85 to begin wooing him over to run the division, which is *fact*. When I talked to Mike myself in an over hour long phone interview, he point blank stated that the 7800 was mentioned to him by Jack *from the beginning*. And in fact it was he who talked Jack in to doing more than just the cost reduced 2600 and 7800 and expanding in to other consumer enetertainment products before he'd come on board. There was nothing in response to Nintendo, they weren't even a blip on anyone's map. And in fact it was when he came on board in late October (officially announced in November) that he started looking at expanding the 7800 titles beyond the initial 10, and first came across Nintendo as a possible competitor (in Katz's word a minor competitor at that point) after hitting walls with all the exclusive arcade titles that had been locked up. That's when Katz reached in to his connections and started licensing formerly computer platform only titles to port over.

 

Now we're talking about actual documentation and actual people "WHO WERE THERE" and "DIRECTLY INVOLVED", and directly spoken with, not half diluted stories passed through the grapevine and regurgitated with nonsense claims of "debunking". Unless you can come back with the same level of research and resources, I don't see how you basing such claims about us on a single questionable story comes off as anything other than silly if not completely amateurish (and insulting to those who actually put in the time, effort, and money).

Edited October 28, 2010 by wgungfu

[Curt Vendel]

Further...

 

The quote from Brad Saville came DIRECTLY from ME... Jerry is also a friend and he reiterated what I'd posted. I have already stated (yet, seems I have to say this again...)

 

Brad was fired, and I wouldn't have blamed him if he had exaggerated the circumstances to me...

 

The FACTS are, Tom Brightmans project management scheduling notes from August 8, 1984 show the Atari 2100 (aka Atari 2600jr) was already continued to be worked on.)

 

The FACTS are, Steve Golson, one of the two LSI engineers who worked on the MARIA chip of the 7800 whom I still speak with to this day stated that GCC was left in a limbo during the sale of Atari because Warner and the Tramiels felt each was responsible for paying GCC for the MARIA chip work. They were left in limbo for nearly 9 months and once a (as Steve called it) Check to "pay and go away" was received, the MARIA chip and the 7800 finally belonged to the Tramiels. What followed next was they (GCC) were contacted then about games for the 7800 as the first 10 were already done and now the Tramiels worked out a deal to purchase them.

 

This AGAIN shows:

 

#1: The Tramiels were committed supporting and selling video games from day 1.

#2: That the deal and intent to move forward was always being negotiated until completed.

#3: The deal to have games for the 7800 were intended and negotiated until completed.

 

This all lead up to delays that held the 7800 up for full release until it finally came out in 1986.

 

This is DONE, in the CAN, SIGNED SEALED AND DELIVERED...

 

I'm not going into this any further because it is no longer an arguable subject, move on and get a life!

 

 

Curt

 

That famous quote was debunked some time ago now, once again you need to read what Marty (wgungfu) has already posted.

 

Debunked? Not hardly.

 

Completely and utterly debunked.

 

scroll down to where Jerry Jessop (an Atari engineer) says this

 

"Brad Saville was a production guy at Atari during the Tramiel days. When the 7800 machine was finished, he went to Tramiel's office to present it. Brad said Tramiel swept the prototype right off his desk and onto the floor, yelling, "We're a computer company now!"

 

So here we have a quote from someone WHO WAS THERE saying that the quote actually happened. Not only that, but that JT wanted nothing to do with the 7800, so that kinda debunks all of your assertions that JT wanted to sell the 7800 all along and it wasn't a response to Nintendo.

 

As was already pointed out, Jerry was not there, he was recounting a story told to him which was just that - a story. Jerry's a friend of mine via rgvc, and I'm fully aware of what his work did or did not entail at Atari Inc. and very briefly at Corp. (Which apparently you're not). Likewise Curt and I exhaustively researched this, pouring over actual internal emails, documents, talking *directly* to people involved at Atari and GCC, and more. The cost reduced 2600 project started up immediately. Negotiations for various projects that had actually been under Warner and not Atari, which included the 7800 and Amiga, started in very early August '84. The Amiga contract was successfully negotiated over to Jack, the 7800 was not and there was haggling over who owed GCC for the MARIA and 10 launch titles. This is when Jack was approached by Saville, apparently not knowing what was going on, and pushing for Jack to release something he didn't have the rights for yet. Jack finally relented to Warner's position that he and not them were responsible if he wanted ownership, and paid GCC that May '85 for MARIA, that is *fact*. Both people on the GCC side (which Curt has directly talked to) and Atari Corp. side (I directly talked to Leonard Tramiel) have verified that. He then paid for the 10 launch titles that summer of '85 and began looking for someone to head a consumer entertainment division, that is *fact*. He approached Mike Katz, then heading Epyx, that August of '85 to begin wooing him over to run the division, which is *fact*. When I talked to Mike myself in an over hour long phone interview, he point blank stated that the 7800 was mentioned to him by Jack *from the beginning*. And in fact it was he who talked Jack in to doing more than just the cost reduced 2600 and 7800 and expanding in to other consumer enetertainment products before he'd come on board. There was nothing in response to Nintendo, they weren't even a blip on anyone's map. And in fact it was when he came on board in late October (officially announced in November) that he started looking at expanding the 7800 titles beyond the initial 10, and first came across Nintendo as a possible competitor (in Katz's word a minor competitor at that point) after hitting walls with all the exclusive arcade titles that had been locked up. That's when Katz reached in to his connections and started licensing formerly computer platform only titles to port over.

 

Now we're talking about actual documentation and actual people "WHO WERE THERE" and "DIRECTLY INVOLVED", and directly spoken with, not half diluted stories passed through the grapevine and regurgitated with nonsense claims of "debunking". Unless you can come back with the same level of research and resources, I don't see how you basing such claims about us on a single questionable story comes off as anything other than silly if not completely amateurish (and insulting to those who actually put in the time, effort, and money).

[prostx23]

That famous quote was debunked some time ago now, once again you need to read what Marty (wgungfu) has already posted.

 

Debunked? Not hardly.

 

Completely and utterly debunked.

 

scroll down to where Jerry Jessop (an Atari engineer) says this

 

"Brad Saville was a production guy at Atari during the Tramiel days. When the 7800 machine was finished, he went to Tramiel's office to present it. Brad said Tramiel swept the prototype right off his desk and onto the floor, yelling, "We're a computer company now!"

 

So here we have a quote from someone WHO WAS THERE saying that the quote actually happened. Not only that, but that JT wanted nothing to do with the 7800, so that kinda debunks all of your assertions that JT wanted to sell the 7800 all along and it wasn't a response to Nintendo.

 

As was already pointed out, Jerry was not there, he was recounting a story told to him which was just that - a story. Jerry's a friend of mine via rgvc, and I'm fully aware of what his work did or did not entail at Atari Inc. and very briefly at Corp. (Which apparently you're not). Likewise Curt and I exhaustively researched this, pouring over actual internal emails, documents, talking *directly* to people involved at Atari and GCC, and more. The cost reduced 2600 project started up immediately. Negotiations for various projects that had actually been under Warner and not Atari, which included the 7800 and Amiga, started in very early August '84. The Amiga contract was successfully negotiated over to Jack, the 7800 was not and there was haggling over who owed GCC for the MARIA and 10 launch titles. This is when Jack was approached by Saville, apparently not knowing what was going on, and pushing for Jack to release something he didn't have the rights for yet. Jack finally relented to Warner's position that he and not them were responsible if he wanted ownership, and paid GCC that May '85 for MARIA, that is *fact*. Both people on the GCC side (which Curt has directly talked to) and Atari Corp. side (I directly talked to Leonard Tramiel) have verified that. He then paid for the 10 launch titles that summer of '85 and began looking for someone to head a consumer entertainment division, that is *fact*. He approached Mike Katz, then heading Epyx, that August of '85 to begin wooing him over to run the division, which is *fact*. When I talked to Mike myself in an over hour long phone interview, he point blank stated that the 7800 was mentioned to him by Jack *from the beginning*. And in fact it was he who talked Jack in to doing more than just the cost reduced 2600 and 7800 and expanding in to other consumer enetertainment products before he'd come on board. There was nothing in response to Nintendo, they weren't even a blip on anyone's map. And in fact it was when he came on board in late October (officially announced in November) that he started looking at expanding the 7800 titles beyond the initial 10, and first came across Nintendo as a possible competitor (in Katz's word a minor competitor at that point) after hitting walls with all the exclusive arcade titles that had been locked up. That's when Katz reached in to his connections and started licensing formerly computer platform only titles to port over.

 

Now we're talking about actual documentation and actual people "WHO WERE THERE" and "DIRECTLY INVOLVED", and directly spoken with, not half diluted stories passed through the grapevine and regurgitated with nonsense claims of "debunking". Unless you can come back with the same level of research and resources, I don't see how you basing such claims about us on a single questionable story comes off as anything other than silly if not completely amateurish (and insulting to those who actually put in the time, effort, and money).

 

Hi Marty,

 

As I just recently came across this thread and have enjoyed you information so much, this weekend I'm going to order Retro Gamer 78 just for your 7800 article.

 

The 10 titles Tramiel was negotiating with GCC over, I assume, were 10 of the so called "Fabulous 11". Which was the 11th title and why was it not part of those negoations?

 

Mike

Edited October 29, 2010 by prostx23

[ApolloBoy]

Which was the 11th title and why was it not part of those negoations?

The 11th one was Desert Falcon and I'm guessing it wasn't included because it was still unfinished at the time.

[Retro Rogue]

Hi Marty,

 

As I just recently came across this thread and have enjoyed you information so much, this weekend I'm going to order Retro Gamer 78 just for your 7800 article.

 

The 10 titles Tramiel was negotiating with GCC over, I assume, were 10 of the so called "Fabulous 11". Which was the 11th title and why was it not part of those negoations?

 

Mike

 

Mike - thanks for the compliments, hope you enjoy. As far as what the original launch titles were to entail and what wasn't released, it depends on what time period. In May of '84 it was actually 12 titles:

 

"A dozen game titles will be marketed, with the 7800, ProSystem in July, including the best available versions of

the recently announced Atari-Lucas film games Ballblazer and Rescue on Fractalus!; new versions of Ms. Pac-

Man, Centipede and Joust, and a 3-D rendering of Asteroids. Six cartridge based education and utility programs

for use with the keyboard are under development."

 

The 7800 Press Kit given out at CES in that June lists: Pole Position II (first as a cartridge and later to be built in to the system), Ballblazer, Rescue on Fractulus, Desert Falcon, Food Fight, Galaga, Xevious, Robotron: 2084, Ms. Pac-Man, Dig Dug, Joust, Centipede, and 3-D Asteroids.

[DracIsBack]

Hell yes it was, it took atari out of debt they had in '93 and put them in the profitable position they were in to liquidate the company in '96. Otherwise they'd quite possibly have not been able to win the pending lawsuits at the time, and quite possibly have gone bankrupt. (something that didn't ever happen to any of the Ataris)

 

Not really following how the Jaguar had anything to do with the lawsuits? Atari reached back into the legacy patents and sued Sega (for a lot) and got paid a small settlement by Nintendo. T

 

SETTLEMENTS OF PATENT LITIGATION

 

During the first quarter of 1994, the Company received $2.2 million with

respect to the settlement of litigation between the Company, Atari Games

Corporation and Nintendo. Although not part of the litigation, the Company

sold 1,500,000 shares of its common stock to Time Warner (parent company of

Atari Games Corporation), Inc. for $12.8 million.

 

During the fourth quarter of 1994, the Company completed a comprehensive

agreement ("Agreement") with Sega Enterprises, Ltd. ("Sega") concerning

resolution of disputes, equity investment and patent and product licensing

agreements. The results of the Agreement were as follows: (i) Sega

acquired 4,705,883 shares of the Company's common stock for $40.0 million;

(ii) the Company received payment of $29.8 million ($50.0 million from

Sega, net of $20.2 million of legal fees and associated costs) in exchange

for a license from Atari covering the use of a library of Atari patents

issued between 1977 through 1984 (excluding patents which exclusively claim

elements of the Company's JAGUAR and LYNX products) through the year 2001;

and (iii) the Company and Sega agreed to cross-license up to five software

game titles each year through the year 2001.

 

 

The Jaguar itself was a huge money loser. In 1993, they lost almost $49 million dollars for that fiscal year. In 1994, they eaked out a 9.4 million profit for the year, but also settled the above lawsuits to bolster. They had an operating loss of $24 million for 1994. By 1995 fiscal year, the net loss was back up to almost $50 million and sales had collapsed from $38.7 million to $14.6 million as a result of competition.

 

Check out the 1995 annual report

http://www.secinfo.com/dr6nd.96q.htm

 

 

Edited October 29, 2010 by DracIsBack