303 replies to this topic

[Mili]

I agree! It's the games that made it hard for people to see the 7800 for what it was worth. If we could come out with a whole new set of games, it might bring the system back into light and cause an upsurge of fans.

[Greg2600]

When someone ports SMB3 to the 7800 intact, I'll say it could have competed with the NES.

[Ben_Larson]

Atari Joe, on Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:41 AM, said:

Can anybody else think of a time when Whistles were used in Atari games??

Ok. I just want to point out that I, for one, was already aware of the whistle gap, like, a while ago, and that the latest homebrew I've been working on has a whistle in it. So...

YOU'RE WELCOME.

ok it's acutally a flute. sue me.

[Atari Joe]

You guys are forgetting, the 7800 was designed to trump the ColecoVision, not the NES. The NES also benefited from soo much development and programmers learning how to push the hardware to the limit, with Nintendo willing to go the extra mile with high memory cartridges and saves and stuff. Atari wouldnt do that. And just like the Jaguar, the 7800 rarely had anything designed for it that pushed the system to its limits, and with little third party support there were hardly as many people working to push those limits and figure it out.

[Atari Joe]

FLUTES WORK TOO! THANK YOU!

[Atari Joe]

Mili, on Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:14 PM, said:

I agree! It's the games that made it hard for people to see the 7800 for what it was worth. If we could come out with a whole new set of games, it might bring the system back into light and cause an upsurge of fans.

That's exactly what Curt, Mark, Eduardo and the rest are working on right now with the 7800 expansion module. Everyone here is working on new games that actually BEGIN to push the limits of the system. Some of it looks really great! I thought you knew that.

[Mili]

Atari Joe, on Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:41 PM, said:

Mili, on Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:14 PM, said:

I agree! It's the games that made it hard for people to see the 7800 for what it was worth. If we could come out with a whole new set of games, it might bring the system back into light and cause an upsurge of fans.

That's exactly what Curt, Mark, Eduardo and the rest are working on right now with the 7800 expansion module. Everyone here is working on new games that actually BEGIN to push the limits of the system. Some of it looks really great! I thought you knew that.

Well thats what I figured what was going on anyways.

[GroovyBee]

Mili, on Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:31 PM, said:

Well thats what I figured what was going on anyways.

Have you checked the homebrew section on AA? There are plenty of 7800 titles in development. There are 5 binaries available from me, 3 from Gorf, 2 from PacManPlus and 1 from Propane 13. Plus the unannounced ones .

[DracIsBack]

This has transformed from a funny thread to the usual 7800 vs. NES retreat.

[Gorf]

supercat, on Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:25 PM, said:

Gorf, on Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:09 AM, said:

The 7800 is techinically superior in just about every way.

The NES offered a "real" resolution that was more than half again that of the 7800 (the 7800 can kludge a 320x200 screen, but motion and transparency are determined on a 160-pixel basis). It also offered better native sound capabilities. While the 7800 does offer a few advantages, the NES is a technically superior platform in many ways.

The NES is garbage who's success is based on Atari's failure to run with the ball. Again, it is a headache
inducing flicker fest. It is not superior in many ways. It may have a higher rez in some instances and a
better sound than the TIA offers but the POKEY, even if its put out on cart is by far superior. NES's higher
rez is a joke because it like all the other rezolutions are flicker riddled and the color is garbage.

Nintendo's NES success is nothing more than Atari's failure and not because of Nintendo.They were in the right
place at the right time. The MARIA Is an arcade quality chip, which can not be said about the Nintendo VDP.
64 8x8 or 16 x 8 flicker riddle sprites versus MARIA limited by memory only screen sized sprites without any
flicker. That plus NES can't play the 2600 library. The best claim the NES can make is it's wide selection of
software, which could have been Atari's, had they beat Nintendo at the exclusive dev game....right time at the
right place...not due to technology...which Atari was always superior at.

[Gorf]

mbd30, on Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:50 PM, said:

supercat, on Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:25 PM, said:

Gorf, on Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:09 AM, said:

The 7800 is techinically superior in just about every way.

The NES offered a "real" resolution that was more than half again that of the 7800 (the 7800 can kludge a 320x200 screen, but motion and transparency are determined on a 160-pixel basis). It also offered better native sound capabilities. While the 7800 does offer a few advantages, the NES is a technically superior platform in many ways.

My 7800 sure didn't seem superior to me back at the time. I was playing "Ms. Pac-Man" and "Dig Dug" when the NES had games like "Super Mario Bros.", "Metroid", "Contra" and "Mike Tyson's Punch-Out". All I wanted was a NES. Not that the 7800's anemic library was necessarily a result of hardware inferiority, but still...


It would be interesting to see if someone could homebrew a "Contra" or SMB style game on the 7800 that would put NES to shame. I know that some graphically impressive shmups have been recently released for it.

All the NES titles you mentioned are uniteresting to me. PAC-Man, Dig Dug and most other 7800 titles were smash
arcade hits. I never liked the MArio platformers....Donkey Kong is still the best 'Mario' game to date. Every game
you mention can be done on the 7800 and they wont flicker your eyeballs out doing it.

@ Drac
Um....the title of the thread "I think now I understand why the NES beat the 7800" is clearly what
this thread was from the start....a 7800 vs NES thread.

[Gorf]

Mili, on Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:14 PM, said:

I agree! It's the games that made it hard for people to see the 7800 for what it was worth. If we could come out with a whole new set of games, it might bring the system back into light and cause an upsurge of fans.

I dont know about that Mili but what you will see if I have my way are 7800 games that will show the NES for what it
really is.....hokey.

[DracIsBack]

Gorf, on Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:01 AM, said:

@ Drac
Um....the title of the thread "I think now I understand why the NES beat the 7800" is clearly what
this thread was from the start....a 7800 vs NES thread.

At first, I thought this was going to be. Then I read the first light hearted post ...



There are plenty of NES vs. 7800 threads in here that talk about technical strengths and weaknesses, which was pushed and what wasn't etc. This started out different but we changed it to same-old-same-old.

[Atari Joe]

Hey guys, can we get back to the good hearted debate of the presence of MAGICAL FLUTES and WHISTLES and their affect on Nintendo games vs. those released for the 7800? That's what I'm most interested in. I like to play both systems but in my mind and in my heart I know what the specs are and where my loyalty lies. It's a settled issue for me. So I'd rather go on about Whistles and gameplay.

[Chuck D. Head]

Hell, the whole system was a damn whistle....you had to blow in the bottom of the damn cartridge to even make it work! Morgan

[Atari Joe]

If I were re-writing ET: The Extra-Terrestrial for the Atari 7800 I would include a whistle or a flute. And I'd make the game a whole lot more like Legend of Zelda where instead of finding pieces of Triforce Eliot is finding pieces of the ET phone just like in the 2600 games but with better screens and more bosses and not some dumb FBI agent that comes clumping onto the screen to take away the reeses pieces. I'd womp on his monkeyass with a whistle too.

[carmel_andrews]

Something atari joe and others are forgetting, if ray kassar hadn't got caught with his hands in the till (insider dealing) that had forced him out of atari, the proposed tie up with nintendo would have been on (since kassar would have seen it through) and that would've essentially kept nintendo out of the non asian markets (since the deal with atari was for non asian markets rights for the upcoming NES as it was still in development (or NAVS as nintendo originally called the american model) assuming that atari survived the VG crash

Also Nintendo sort of initially restricted the concept of 3rd party games publishing, something that atari created (thanks to an out of court settlement with atari spin off, activision), look at it another way, would we have the same VG industry if atari had actioned nintendo style games development or publishing practices, i think we'd have a very different industry now

Also because of the restricted practices nintendo initially actioned, they effectively created a cartel, therefore artificially inflating the price of NES etc software (or keeping the price at a high level) which is actually illegal in UK/Europe

[Gorf]

carmel_andrews, on Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:43 AM, said:

Something atari joe and others are forgetting, if ray kassar hadn't got caught with his hands in the till (insider dealing) that had forced him out of atari, the proposed tie up with nintendo would have been on (since kassar would have seen it through) and that would've essentially kept nintendo out of the non asian markets (since the deal with atari was for non asian markets rights for the upcoming NES as it was still in development (or NAVS as nintendo originally called the american model) assuming that atari survived the VG crash

Also Nintendo sort of initially restricted the concept of 3rd party games publishing, something that atari created (thanks to an out of court settlement with atari spin off, activision), look at it another way, would we have the same VG industry if atari had actioned nintendo style games development or publishing practices, i think we'd have a very different industry now

Also because of the restricted practices nintendo initially actioned, they effectively created a cartel, therefore artificially inflating the price of NES etc software (or keeping the price at a high level) which is actually illegal in UK/Europe

Why CA, Im quite impressed....and for that you get a big fat red juicy....

BINGO!

[Atari Joe]

That's not necessarily true. And it doesnt keep me from wanting more magical twilight Whistles in 7800 games that already exist. You're talking wouldashouldacoulda sideways reality stuff.

Edited by Atari Joe, Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:31 AM.

[carmel_andrews]

Well Atari joe...you want to read this then (re: nintendo's software development and publishing practices and policies and it's effect on UK/european markets at the time)

http://www.competiti...ltext/359c1.pdf

http://www.economics...poly-power.html

I am surprised that domark in the UK (who had licencing contracts with tengen/atari) didn't try suing nintendo in the UK or european courts as they (nintendo) technically operated a cartel, as i would guess nintendo had the same business practices in the uk/european markets as they had in the US, and if it true what various 3rd party US publishers were saying at the time (i.e either preventing or making it difficult for non licenced nintendo publishers to getting retailers stocking non nintendo licenced product in their store/shop) i am sure that nintendo's UK/euro representatives were playing the same game in the UK/european markets

[Atari Joe]

I'm not disputing Nintendo's software and publishing practices implemented in the NES days. That's all obvious. I'm saying that if Kassar had stayed around for a while longer who knows what would have happened with the american famicom deal at Atari. They may have further developed the system and launched it, they may have launched the 7800 and kept the non asian rights forcing nintendo to be small, and worst of all they could have boxed the famicom as an Atari system just to have Warner turn their back on Atari in 1984, sell the company off and have the NES wind up in the hands of the Tramiels. That's a pretty scary thought if you ask me. But it's all a bunch of "what ifs"

Most everybody knows about Nintendo's third party publishing practices back then, etc. That's not in dispute. However it never really bothered me, regardless of what european courts may have said. Nintendo was doing what they thought was in their best interest to make their product a success. If Atari and the rest had been on their toes maybe they could have reached the level of success the NES did in the 80's. As much as I love Atari and my 7800 I don't bemoan Nintendo their success one bit.

What I do bemoan is the immense lack of respect Atari had for Whistles. That's just inexcusable. European courts should have placed more regulations on Atari to force them into having more whistles.

[Atari Joe]

BTW - Does anyone here know what the reaction was WITHIN Atari (during the Tramiel years) to the success of games like MARIO, METROID and ZELDA?? Scrapyard Dog was the answer to Mario, and I think ElectroCop on the 7800 was going to look a lot like Metroid.. but I would love to know if ANYONE at Tramiel Atari had any thoughts on the delightful ZELDA games being released and the success of RPGs back then. I would have loved to see more of that kinda stuff other than just Midnight Mutants. You know, something with flutes and whistles.

[Crazy Climber]

Whistles sounds about right

[Gorf]

No one is demoaning Nintendo's success. What is fact is that Atari's 7800 is a superior system
and with a little less head up ass syndrome on Atari's part, the NES would have gone nowhere
mainly based on techincal merits of the system AND the software by Nintendo themselves.

By the time Nintendo practiced their illegal monopolistic licensing, Atari did not have
any choice but to deal with their own classic titles which are by far more playable than
anything Nintendo has released. For those Nintendo fanboys that have the balls to dare
bitch about Atari and their rehashes, no one has milked off of one theme as much as
Nintendo's Mario...

Don't believe me...read for your self...

http://en.wikipedia....o_games_by_year

...that poor cows udder was worn out a looooooooooong time ago.

Atari one the other hand since the 80's have at least 100 completely different
themes that are hardly worn out. From Asteroids to Centipede to War Lords
to Agent X and on and on.

Even Sega did better in the originality aspect than Nintendo did but not by
much. What this tells me is the more you wear out a theme the more popular
you become....If Atari only had practiced the use of these over 100 ver unique
titles over the year, esepcially with the Jaguar, they'd have done worlds better
than the Mario dead horse beating brigade.

[accousticguitar]

Atari Joe, on Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:32 PM, said:

I'm saying that if Kassar had stayed around for a while longer who knows what would have happened with the american famicom deal at Atari. They may have further developed the system and launched it, they may have launched the 7800 and kept the non asian rights forcing nintendo to be small, and worst of all they could have boxed the famicom as an Atari system just to have Warner turn their back on Atari in 1984, sell the company off and have the NES wind up in the hands of the Tramiels.

Actually, Kassar was the reason the Atari Nintendo deal didn't happen. He was upset that Coleco ported Donkey Kong to the Adam computer.