355 replies to this topic

[dwh]

This got me thinking about the hype over all the different add-ons, back in the day.Hopefully we do not repeat history and this item really is released.And once it is,Curt can have the satisfaction of actually creating and releasing an add-on peripherial that does not go instantly to vapor-ware...

[Curt Vendel]

I totally agree with you and that's why you're not seeing any (lets throw a warp drive on this covered wagon) approach to the enhancement, lets run down a few things:

The case design is based on a piggyback CPU module proposed in early Spring of 1984, so keeping the look & feel as it was proposed.

We are throwing 128K of ram at the system and doing it based on a TTL solution method and doing it in 8K chunks, so it would've been feasible and easily possible in 1984-1992.

Adding Pokey audio and I/O -- off the shelf solution already existing.

Adding in built in high scoring capability - developed, just never officially released by Atari/GCC back in 1984.

Possibly implementation of a second audio processor that was used in many Atari Arcade machines throughout the 1980's. Again, off the shelf solution and implementation, not stretching outside of the possible.

SIO device usage - was proposed with the keyboard add-on

Keyboard add-on was proposed.

So I think this enhancement is staying well within the lines of a device that was a "coulda/woulda/shoulda" product.

ZylonBane, on Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:43 PM, said:

Products like this, no matter how technically impressive, entirely miss the point of coding on classic consoles. Part and parcel of coding on antique hardware is that it's technologically limited, so you suck it up and deal with it. The challenge is the entire point. If you don't want to deal with it, then why are you bothering? Go write Flash games instead.

And from a gamer's perspective-- Once you slap on this module, it's no longer an Atari 7800. It's a... I dunno... Curtari Vendelsystem. I have fond nostalgic memories of the Atari 7800, which is why homebrews for it still interest me. The Vendelsystem, on the other hand, I couldn't possibly care less about. If I want a version of Donkey Kong with better sound, I'll just fire up MAME. Ultimately, it all makes about as much sense as going to a Civil War reenactment and handing out AK-47s.

This isn't even addressing the installed base problem. The 7800 fan base is already pretty damn small. Fracturing it even further seems foolish at best. Even when major console manufacturers have attempted to introduce expansion modules, it's never been particularly successful.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. If anyone has a more substantive rebuttal than "screew U zylonlame yuo suck!!11!", I'd certainly be happy to listen.

[Shawn Sr.]

Will this expansion be released instead of the keyboard module and if so will the koyboard functions be included in the expansion design?

[potatohead]

I think it's great. Even with some add ons, the old systems are still old, and that makes for a nice, fun niche.

And it's kind of exclusive too. Won't ever go mainstream, though it's possible to see some of the better efforts do that.

[MrBeefy]

Neat not sure I could justify buying it for the price...Actually I need to check if my 7800 has the port....can't remember....

Eh looks like nope. (its supposed to be on the side right? anyone got a shot of what I'd look for?)

Edited by MrBeefy, Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:26 PM.

[Curt Vendel]

This plugs into the cartridge slot on top of any 7800, has nothing to do with the Expansion Port on the sides of the 7800.

MrBeefy, on Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:24 PM, said:

Neat not sure I could justify buying it for the price...Actually I need to check if my 7800 has the port....can't remember....

Eh looks like nope. (its supposed to be on the side right? anyone got a shot of what I'd look for?)

[Flojomojo]

Curt Vendel, on Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:11 PM, said:

I totally agree with you and that's why you're not seeing any (lets throw a warp drive on this covered wagon) approach to the enhancement, lets run down a few things:

The case design is based on a piggyback CPU module proposed in early Spring of 1984, so keeping the look & feel as it was proposed.

This is a very interesting idea, and I will watch it with interest, but as a modern person living in 2010 who no longer owns a 7800, I'd be much more interested in a standalone device with similar capabilities. Remember the Sega Neptune project, that contained the Genesis system with an integrated 32X? That's what I would love to see. Preferably with an SD card slot. It would be even cooler if the whole thing were in a mini package like the original Flashback case.

But that's not what you designed, so I will sit back and watch ...

[atariksi]

Curt Vendel, on Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:11 PM, said:

I totally agree with you and that's why you're not seeing any (lets throw a warp drive on this covered wagon) approach to the enhancement, lets run down a few things:

The case design is based on a piggyback CPU module proposed in early Spring of 1984, so keeping the look & feel as it was proposed.

We are throwing 128K of ram at the system and doing it based on a TTL solution method and doing it in 8K chunks, so it would've been feasible and easily possible in 1984-1992.

Adding Pokey audio and I/O -- off the shelf solution already existing.

Adding in built in high scoring capability - developed, just never officially released by Atari/GCC back in 1984.

Possibly implementation of a second audio processor that was used in many Atari Arcade machines throughout the 1980's. Again, off the shelf solution and implementation, not stretching outside of the possible.

SIO device usage - was proposed with the keyboard add-on

Keyboard add-on was proposed.

So I think this enhancement is staying well within the lines of a device that was a "coulda/woulda/shoulda" product.

I don't know if it does, but it would be interesting if the POKEY had option to map to $D200 (same as Atari 800) and the ROM in the expansion allowed boot-up from Atari SIO devices and booted to BASIC "READY" and the DB9 port in it was based on PIA mapped to $D300 (same as Atari 800). That way it may even run some of existing A8 BASIC software like audio effects and joystick control stuff.

[ZIMM]

will this make it possible for every 2600 game (carts of course) can now be played on a 7800? that would be great!
can 5200 games now be played on 7800 with this? if not, another module to make that happen would be excellent. how about a module for XE games? that would be awesome!

great job Curt and everyone! looks and sounds great!

Edited by ZIMM, Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:24 AM.

[GroovyBee]

ZIMM, on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:23 AM, said:

will this make it possible for every 2600 game (carts of course) can now be played on a 7800? that would be great!

The 7800 is already backwards compatible with the 2600.

Quote

can 5200 games now be played on 7800 with this?

Nope!

[HammR25]

Zimm might be referring to the few games that have issues on some 7800s.

[DracIsBack]

ZIMM, on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:23 AM, said:

can 5200 games now be played on 7800 with this? if not, another module to make that happen would be excellent. how about a module for XE games? that would be awesome!

Module would essentially be a '5200' or 'XE' in a 7800 case as the architectures are totally different.

[Underball]

HammR25, on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:20 PM, said:

Zimm might be referring to the few games that have issues on some 7800s.

The Harmony cart already fixes this for those who don't want to mod their console (if they even have these suspect problems at all.

[AtariNerd]

I'm trying to visualize this. Any general specs as to the dimensions?

I'd buy one, even though I don't currently own a 7800, just for this. I know it may be a far-future possibility, but with the discovery of the chip data-sets, might there be an all-in one unit in the future?

[frogstar_robot]

This device needn't split the 7800 user base. At least not much. The main things it brings to the table are always on POKEY and extra ram. I doubt any included extra sound hardware or the keyboard DB-9 port will see much use and if they do then it will be for more computerlike titles where no one will mind having to get the expansion to use them.

So I can see games written to this device being distributed two ways: "super" carts with any needed extra RAM and POKEY on board and "light" carts with just the PROMs that require the expansion. The "supers" may have a $20 or so premium but this could be acceptable if someone wants a title but is otherwise uninterested in the expansion. That choice could help catalyze the market for the expansion and give maybe give it critical mass amongst 7800 fans. Of course, emulators should support it as well as that will whet appetites for enhanced titles too.

[Atari Dogs]

HammR25, on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:20 PM, said:

Zimm might be referring to the few games that have issues on some 7800s.

How about the size of the cartridge slot? Will it be big enough that all cartridges fit?

[Curt Vendel]

Yes, it will fit ALL cartridges, I looked at the 7800 cartridge guide and the 2600 one and I'm going to modify the existing 2600 mechanical drawings and do a new guide with the extra holes for the 32 pin carts and look to have a short run of them done.


Curt

Atari Dogs, on Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:51 PM, said:

HammR25, on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:20 PM, said:

Zimm might be referring to the few games that have issues on some 7800s.

How about the size of the cartridge slot? Will it be big enough that all cartridges fit?

[yuppicide]

[quote name='Curt Vendel' date='Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:11 PM' timestamp='1279156316' post='2051126']
So I think this enhancement is staying well within the lines of a device that was a "coulda/woulda/shoulda" product.

Shoulda Woulda Coulda!

[atarian63]

ZylonBane, on Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:43 PM, said:

Products like this, no matter how technically impressive, entirely miss the point of coding on classic consoles. Part and parcel of coding on antique hardware is that it's technologically limited, so you suck it up and deal with it. The challenge is the entire point. If you don't want to deal with it, then why are you bothering? Go write Flash games instead.

And from a gamer's perspective-- Once you slap on this module, it's no longer an Atari 7800. It's a... I dunno... Curtari Vendelsystem. I have fond nostalgic memories of the Atari 7800, which is why homebrews for it still interest me. The Vendelsystem, on the other hand, I couldn't possibly care less about. If I want a version of Donkey Kong with better sound, I'll just fire up MAME. Ultimately, it all makes about as much sense as going to a Civil War reenactment and handing out AK-47s.

This isn't even addressing the installed base problem. The 7800 fan base is already pretty damn small. Fracturing it even further seems foolish at best. Even when major console manufacturers have attempted to introduce expansion modules, it's never been particularly successful.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. If anyone has a more substantive rebuttal than "screew U zylonlame yuo suck!!11!", I'd certainly be happy to listen.

Certainly rediscovering a "toy" that you have fond memories of is a good thing. the enhancements just genrate renewed interest. Also this includes some the items (add ons) that were planned for the system so.. that is bringing to fuition what should have been and more. Very nice indeed!
Kind of like if someone made an actual 1450xld with some enhancements like AMY. All atari projects that should have been!

Please add me to the list Curt if there is one!

[Douglas patton]

Just get a jaguar.

[ApolloBoy]

Douglas patton, on Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:26 PM, said:

Just get a jaguar.

I see you got off to a great start.

[JohnnyBlaze]

ZylonBane, on Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:43 PM, said:

Products like this, no matter how technically impressive, entirely miss the point of coding on classic consoles. Part and parcel of coding on antique hardware is that it's technologically limited, so you suck it up and deal with it. The challenge is the entire point. If you don't want to deal with it, then why are you bothering? Go write Flash games instead.

And from a gamer's perspective-- Once you slap on this module, it's no longer an Atari 7800. It's a... I dunno... Curtari Vendelsystem. I have fond nostalgic memories of the Atari 7800, which is why homebrews for it still interest me. The Vendelsystem, on the other hand, I couldn't possibly care less about. If I want a version of Donkey Kong with better sound, I'll just fire up MAME. Ultimately, it all makes about as much sense as going to a Civil War reenactment and handing out AK-47s.

This isn't even addressing the installed base problem. The 7800 fan base is already pretty damn small. Fracturing it even further seems foolish at best. Even when major console manufacturers have attempted to introduce expansion modules, it's never been particularly successful.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. If anyone has a more substantive rebuttal than "screew U zylonlame yuo suck!!11!", I'd certainly be happy to listen.

I do. It seems like that what Curt is planning is the expansion system we were promised in 1984. This way, we will FINALLY have the expansion for the 7800 and see what Atari wanted us to have. Think about it as Atari's ultimate vision. On top of that, he's adding a few things to work the bugs out of Atari's design, using what we know now to help what drawbacks this system did have. I get your point, but this is the ultimate in homebrew, a finished expansion module for the 7800 following the original specs with a few fixes. Also, the games will be made by the community. We're all involved in this and this expansion module, when finished, will be a community effort.

BTW, Curt, I do plan on buying one as well as a new 7800(I sold my old one a while back). But, there are concerns on here about finding a system with an expansion port. Will you or anyone else be making a mod for 7800's without expansion ports to either use this or to add the port to the motherboard so it can be used?

GroovyBee, on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:30 AM, said:

ZIMM, on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:23 AM, said:

will this make it possible for every 2600 game (carts of course) can now be played on a 7800? that would be great!

The 7800 is already backwards compatible with the 2600.

I think he meant if Robot Tank, the Supercharger, and the few 2600 games that have problems running on the 7800 will finally work with no bullshit.

Edited by JohnnyBlaze, Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:34 PM.

[ApolloBoy]

JohnnyBlaze, on Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:32 PM, said:

BTW, Curt, I do plan on buying one as well as a new 7800(I sold my old one a while back). But, there are concerns on here about finding a system with an expansion port. Will you or anyone else be making a mod for 7800's without expansion ports to either use this or to add the port to the motherboard so it can be used?

The new expansion module plugs into the cartridge port, not the expansion port, so it'll work with any 7800.

[Austin]

This is actually good for me.. Regardless of how many new titles are released, it adds the High Score capability (Considering most of the games on the platform are arcade-style, score-based games, this is very nice), and hell.. Maybe my 7800 won't have trouble with 2600 games after I plug this baby in!

[nathanallan]

ApolloBoy, on Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:33 PM, said:

JohnnyBlaze, on Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:32 PM, said:

BTW, Curt, I do plan on buying one as well as a new 7800(I sold my old one a while back). But, there are concerns on here about finding a system with an expansion port. Will you or anyone else be making a mod for 7800's without expansion ports to either use this or to add the port to the motherboard so it can be used?

The new expansion module plugs into the cartridge port, not the expansion port, so it'll work with any 7800.

One more thing I am looking forward to are Easter Eggs that Curt always throws in. Something just can't be designed without an Easter Egg in there somewhere, I think it's one of the Maker's Rules wish I could find a link for those.