A new idea

[R4ngerM4n]

Could you do a Recording on the real thing, for comparision?

 

Emkay, is there any way of manipulating the SID chip the same way? Maybe you give it a try and post your results.

[analmux]

Could you do a Recording on the real thing, for comparision?

 

Emkay, is there any way of manipulating the SID chip the same way? Maybe you give it a try and post your results.

 

SID can do the same, though 2 (out of 3) channels are wasted.

 

At least, if we're both talking about the extended pulsewave features of pokey: Pokey needs 2 channels for the ordinary pulsewave feature. But, it still needs 2 channels for the extended pulsewave feature, giving us a smooth mixture of pulse and sawtooth alike waveforms. To do the same on SID the sync feature is needed to obtain a coherent state of two superposed channels.

[emkay]

 

Emkay, is there any way of manipulating the SID chip the same way? Maybe you give it a try and post your results.

 

 

Interesting, you ask about it.

What I'm doing here is making "corrections" with POKEY's sound generators. Back in the 80s everone was sure, POKEY cannot do clean working 2 operator sounds, because the start of the used generator wave was always different.

 

Now we know about some possibilities , to adjust the "start" of the generated sounds, which results in the tunes I'm converting as good as possible in RMT.

 

SID has this "granted start of a sound" by default available and all additional features -like Ring Modulation - have been used a million times before. So there is no need to manipulate SID in that way.

 

All I can say is that the end of the possibilites on ther POKEY's side is not reached.

 

The next step would be that someone creates a real POKEY tracker, which could be compatible with Protracker commands in the upper layer.

The lower layer should be a POKEY synth tool to adjust the chip to the needed sounds and doing those corrections directly in the runtime.

After such a Tracker has been developed, we may get an overview of the possible.

[emkay]

-Some additonal volume changes

-one more timing adjustment added to the lead

-changed 2 instruments of the percusion (drums)

turend3.xex

[analmux]

I don't want to use RMT, because it is not running on Atari 8bit. It is part of the hobby for me to use the atari as much of possible. (So that is why I don't use crosscompilers/assemblers)

 

That's why I would code an atari-native tracker, if I would want to write one. But, I'm still figuring out what would be the most suitable file-format for a pokey tune written in a tracker with full support of all (until now) known features.

 

The most annoying is tuning differences between emulator and real machine. Sometimes you can write a tune on RMT, thinking it sounds all fine, but when exporting it to .xex and then to .atr, running it on the real machine, sometimes detuning is there.

[+MrFish]

I don't want to use RMT, because it is not running on Atari 8bit. It is part of the hobby for me to use the atari as much of possible. (So that is why I don't use crosscompilers/assemblers)

 

That's why I would code an atari-native tracker, if I would want to write one. But, I'm still figuring out what would be the most suitable file-format for a pokey tune written in a tracker with full support of all (until now) known features.

 

The most annoying is tuning differences between emulator and real machine. Sometimes you can write a tune on RMT, thinking it sounds all fine, but when exporting it to .xex and then to .atr, running it on the real machine, sometimes detuning is there.

One shortcoming of Atari native trackers is their use of 40-column fonts, which makes fitting all info on one screen a real chore. One option is to use a smaller (yet legible) font for the tracker interface.

 

Another more esoteric option to the Atari based tracker is to have a PC based tracker that utilizes some sort of sound card that contains a real Pokey chip. Apparently at least one individual has done it (Pokey sound card) before with good results: Atari Projects (scroll down to "Atari 8-bit computers")

Edited August 18, 2010 by MrFish

[+Stephen]

One shortcoming of Atari native trackers is their use of 40-column fonts, which makes fitting all info on one screen a real chore. One option is to use a smaller (yet legible) font for the tracker interface.

 

Another more esoteric option to the Atari based tracker is to have a PC based tracker that utilizes some sort of sound card that contains a real Pokey chip. Apparently at least one individual has done it (Pokey sound card) before with good results: Atari Projects (scroll down to "Atari 8-bit computers")

That sounds like the best solution (short of having a 100% accurate FPGA PoKey). I can't bring myself to do serious coding or design work on the old A8. I still code for it, but have been too spoiled with the PC tools. Cut & paste is a must, I can do without a mouse. That being said, NeoTracker 1.8 is one of the most impressive bits of software I've seen on the A8.

[Creature XL]

That sounds like the best solution (short of having a 100% accurate FPGA PoKey). I can't bring myself to do serious coding or design work on the old A8. I still code for it, but have been too spoiled with the PC tools. Cut & paste is a must, I can do without a mouse. That being said, NeoTracker 1.8 is one of the most impressive bits of software I've seen on the A8.

 

Well, you do not have to USE the old A8 if that is what you are saying.

For example I use cc65 (and VIM and MAKE and so on) on my PC. I test the result with the emulator and can (If I build the SIO2PC cable today as it is planed) load the XEX file with the A8 to see the real results.

 

On another note. Just want to remind you all that you do not need to use the text modes. I know that is nothing new as we have SW-80-column mode.

Its just a reminder. And I had some interesting results with a 53-column mode (obviously 6 bit per char) back in the days.

 

I am just throwing ideas around, I have no intention of coding a music editor, however, I am really curious what the out come will be and would be willing to assist a bit with coding

[emkay]

OK... a last on

of the turrican endtune...

 

Just different timings for comparision.

The "hand-clapping" sound reminds me of the start of the Turrican 2 Tune ... btw...

 

If we only had had chance of real bass usage with Pokey.....

turend3b.xex

Edited August 18, 2010 by emkay

[emkay]

A PC soundcard could be nice. But it will not be enough to only build a POKEY on it. You would have to rebuild the whole thing. CPU, ANTIC, and POKEY to have the correct timing.

 

I'm not sure why, but it happens to the libraries already. They seem to be handled different in RMT and in the emulator, so the sounds vary from emulation to emulaten, even if the same libraries were used.

[Marius]

My point is that I do NOT want to use a PC or whatever other system. The hobby for me is using my Atari 8bit. For me MPT sounds like a great alternative. Really.

 

But I only know how to use Chaos Music Composer (CMC). Is there English documentation available for MPT. I also need routines (and documentation) to implent MPT in my own programs.

 

thanks a lot!

Marius

[Mathy]

Hello guys

 

I know that is nothing new as we have SW-80-column mode.

 

Or you could use the XEP80. Better yet, if the tracker is able to load whatever screen-driver you want, you could have drivers for SW-80-column mode, XEP80, the Austin 80 or even the VBXE.

 

sincerely

 

Mathy

[analmux]

Guys, which screenmode to use for such a native tracker is not one of my biggest concerns. 40*24 chars in standard gfx 0 mode is enough in most cases. And, remember, we have many keys, so just press one to flip to another screen immediately. We could have many screens. But, this problem will solve itself I'm afraid

 

How to deal with memory usage, cpu usage. Data format? That's the biggest problem now. A large data-format will need many bytes in memory for one tune, but a small data-format will need many cpu cycles. I'd like to find a balance.

 

And indeed, as emkay already wrote, if you want to use a pokey2pc plugin card, then you need to make sure it is controlled the same way as in the atari. Thus, with exactly the same timing scheme. At least if you want to compose a pokey tune specifically for a pokey inside the A8. Of course there are other options, like a 16-pokey-box directly linked to a midi-keyboard (and a simple controller inbetween).

 

 

@ emkay, which of the latest tunes is the best to make another recording of?

[emkay]

 

@ emkay, which of the latest tunes is the best to make another recording of?

 

 

 

3b

 

 

Thanks in advance.

[analmux]

@ emkay, which of the latest tunes is the best to make another recording of?

3b

 

Thanks in advance.

[emkay]

@ emkay, which of the latest tunes is the best to make another recording of?

3b

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Hm..... this one sounds better than I expected.

[analmux]

Yes, and some slight distortion could be caused by the .mp3 compression, so in real it sounds even somewhat better.

 

The weird thing is still the difference between tuning/pitch here and there, especially when listening to the bass parts. Playing this tune on emulator gives 2 different note types being slightly out of pitch, somewhat too high frequency. On the real machine it's only 1 note type being slightly out of pitch.

 

I also tried to listen using 60 hz (ntsc) emulation. However the RMT player detects ntsc and starts playing at another timing scheme, however 312/262 is not exactly a rational number. And, as expected, sometimes the chosen pulsewidth is cancelled.

 

Another weird thing I noticed is, there's no pitch difference between emulator in pal or ntsc mode. Maybe this gives some problems. It seems emulator is always in ntsc clocking, thus always 1789790 Hz. That's why the real recording sounds somewhat lower in pitch, as pal SHOULD be 1773447 Hz. Possibly THIS emulation bug (or just sloppiness) causes some minor differences between te emu sound and the real thing?

Edited August 21, 2010 by analmux

[emkay]

Sometimes I wonder myself, why doing this stuff

Knowing the limits of POKEY and the even less features in RMT. But it always seems interesting, to have the result of the "possible".

 

Listening to the original MOD, it plays "Melodies" every programming cycle" (1/50 seconds) while often in the RMT for 2 complete vbi cycles "nothing is played"....

 

The harder bread ..... the tune uses many one-note - different pitch recording - instruments. And in all it's complexity, this time, the tune is veeeeeryyyyyyy looooong

 

I have further ideas to enhance the tune without higher cpu usage. If only the clock changing in the envelope was enabled....

rte.xex

[analmux]

Interesting tune, especially the instrumentation. And indeed veeerrryyy long. Maybe a recording would be a possibility, but it still needs some edits. Some melody parts need a transpose, and some instruments some last fine-tuning, according to the real machine's sound.

[emkay]

Feel free to adjust the needed

 

Actually, one instrument would extremely take benefit by some clocking changes (gen 2 @ 1.79Mhz) and back to "A" ...

 

If the basses do well on the real A8, they could turn a bit louder.

 

A good thing is the upcoming RMT, havin all needed features, incl. one Digi channel .......

 

 

 

 

At least, the tune lives by the change of the main voice .... sometimes the filter is in front, sometimes the "simple" voice. Which is imho a good thing for a long playing soundtrack.

rte.zip

Edited August 31, 2010 by emkay

[analmux]

Which version of RMT did you use? 1.27? And, hacked or non-hacked one?

[emkay]

1.28

 

 

[emkay]

This one sounds in RMT very funny (in a good way). But it sounds less good in A800 p4....

 

At least it's some 3.5chn rendition and the filter sound shows that we can tune inbetween the 8-bit resolution.

swt.xex

[+Stephen]

This one sounds in RMT very funny (in a good way). But it sounds less good in A800 p4....

 

At least it's some 3.5chn rendition and the filter sound shows that we can tune inbetween the 8-bit resolution.

Apologies if this has been discussed - I searched this thread and only saw one brief mention by Rybags. Emkay - what is your opinion on Altirra's PoKey emulation?

 

P.S.

This is my favorite one yet. That bassline is great

[emkay]

 

Apologies if this has been discussed - I searched this thread and only saw one brief mention by Rybags. Emkay - what is your opinion on Altirra's PoKey emulation?

 

 

 

Don't know why, but there seem to be heavy problems with the re-playing speed control. It sounds sometimes like a droning cat.