29 replies to this topic

[GroovyBee]

Hmmmm...

[HatefulGravey]

Those look like a lot of fun. I heard of that one and the model for the SNES just last week, looking forward to getting one of each soon. I have to get my Harmony Cart first though.

[The_Laird]

Please don't tell us you are joining the darkside!!!!

[GroovyBee]

The NES is on my list of consoles/computers to do a game for (along with the TI-99/4A, A8, Dragon32 and Intellivision). A great deal has been said about which is the superior system between the 7800, NES and SMS. All have their strengths and weaknesses. My main interest is a comparison between the NES and 7800. The only way I can compare them to a satisfactory level in my mind is by programming a non trivial game. After that I'll have a much better understanding of what the machine is "made of" and the limitations programmers of the day had to deal with and work around.

[goldenegg]

The PowerPak is awesome! If you're not already on NintendoAge and NESDEV, I'd suggest keeping an eye there for custom mapper pack updates and such. Bunnyboy also occasionally posts beta versions of mapper updates he's working on too.

[malducci]

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The NES is on my list of consoles/computers to do a game for (along with the TI-99/4A, A8, Dragon32 and Intellivision). A great deal has been said about which is the superior system between the 7800, NES and SMS. All have their strengths and weaknesses.

You don't need a powerpak to start learning, understanding, and code for the NES. You know there are very accurate emulators and debuggers too, right?

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My main interest is a comparison between the NES and 7800. The only way I can compare them to a satisfactory level in my mind is by programming a non trivial game. After that I'll have a much better understanding of what the machine is "made of" and the limitations programmers of the day had to deal with and work around.

Well... that's a very poor reason to want to code for a system, IMO. You code for a system you have love for, not because you want to 'measure up' the system. A good chance is that, if that's your motivation or mindset, then you're actually gonna miss out on some of the strengths of the system (it really does take years of coding for the system to get intimate level of understanding of the hardware, how to take advantage of exploits and what not of the system, etc). Guys over at nesdev have been honing their skills with the system for years. Also, you might have a 'much better understanding' relative to what you have now, but still might meaning nothing relative to their experience. I've coded systems for years now, trace through commercial code (seeing the good and the bad code/functions/algorithms/etc). Only thing I can tell you, is what they did (be it good or bad). Not what environments or tools or conditions or time restraints or anything, that they had to work with or under. I think it's kind of ignorant to assume otherwise.

[GroovyBee]

malducci, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 2:00 AM, said:

You don't need a powerpak to start learning, understanding, and code for the NES. You know there are very accurate emulators and debuggers too, right?

Unfortunately I don't trust emulators. I like to run code on real hardware.

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Well... that's a very poor reason to want to code for a system, IMO. You code for a system you have love for, not because you want to 'measure up' the system.

Not at all. I'm not biased against the NES in any way. I want to see what it can do. You are assuming that I'm going to compare it against the 7800 and the 7800 will automatically win no matter what.

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A good chance is that, if that's your motivation or mindset, then you're actually gonna miss out on some of the strengths of the system (it really does take years of coding for the system to get intimate level of understanding of the hardware, how to take advantage of exploits and what not of the system, etc).

Take a look at what I've been doing on the 7800 since I started coding on it last year.

[goldenegg]

malducci, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 2:00 AM, said:

Well... that's a very poor reason to want to code for a system, IMO. You code for a system you have love for, not because you want to 'measure up' the system.

I couldn't possibly disagree more strongly with that comment! GrooveBee has a love for these systems and what better way for him to learn more about what he's passionate about?

It's like me with musical instruments. I don't learn a new instrument because I have a specific love for it. I want to learn what that instrument can do and see what I can make it do. Should I not bother to pick up an instrument because others have had more experience with it? I'd have some strong words to anyone who'd tell me that.

[carmel_andrews]

wasn't the powerpak made by brit. software company, codemasters, I think it got renamed 'game genie' when the original US rights owner (camerica) did a distribution deal with Galoob toys (according to Mr Rolenta's book phoenix, the fall and rise of videogames)

I think there was suposed to be a follow up to Powerpak/game genie, which changed the code format to something similar to the equivalent datel devices (Pro action replay) i think that was called game genie II, i saw one loose in a retro shop (the shop's not there anymore) for the nintendo some years back

[GroovyBee]

carmel_andrews, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 12:01 PM, said:

wasn't the powerpak made by brit. software company, codemasters

Nope! This is the Powerpak we are talking about.

[carmel_andrews]

ah, different product alltogether

[malducci]

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It's like me with musical instruments. I don't learn a new instrument because I have a specific love for it. I want to learn what that instrument can do and see what I can make it do. Should I not bother to pick up an instrument because others have had more experience with it? I'd have some strong words to anyone who'd tell me that.

Nice analogy... but maybe you missed the point of my post? If you play a keyboard and are going to pickup and learn to play a six string guitar, *just* to for the sake of comparison.. is shallow. You're not learning to play the guitar because you, well, actually *want* to play the guitar, but for some other lesser/weaker motivation/reason. You'll never really learn the guitar. So.. replace the keyboard/guitar with whatever retro systems, if you still think thats perfectly fine, well.. then I bite my thumb at you, sir.

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GrooveBee has a love for these systems and what better way for him to learn more about what he's passionate about?

Well, if he has a love for these systems - shouldn't that be the primary reason for learning to code for a system? That's not the message I got from reading his reply.

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Unfortunately I don't trust emulators. I like to run code on real hardware.

.... That's just silly. It gives the opportunity to start learning the system right away, without having to purchase or invest anything anything upfront. The real hardware is definitely required, IMO ('cause that should be your primary target for compatibility), but not necessary for starting out and getting familiar with/learning the system. I mean, it's not like you're going to be pumping out any such timing sensitive FXs or such right from the start. Also, what are you going to use for a debugger if not emulation? Are you one of those "I don't use a debugger" types?

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Not at all. I'm not biased against the NES in any way. I want to see what it can do. You are assuming that I'm going to compare it against the 7800 and the 7800 will automatically win no matter what.

Wait.. so you are going to 'see what it can do', to compare it against another system? It doesn't matter where your bias lies. Or even if you have no bias (relatively speaking). Learning to code for a system based on that premise, is still pretty shallow. So what I stated previous about 'knowing' the system still stands.

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Take a look at what I've been doing on the 7800 since I started coding on it last year.

So what's that supposed to mean? That you'll intimately know the NES or what other system in a year as well? I know of two people that have learned a system (each for a different system) within a year as well (and put out a game on the corresponding systems too). Don't get me wrong, I know you've done some stuff and I don't think you're a noob to coding for a console. If your goal is to make games for the 7800, NES, and SMS, then that's fantastic But your other replies don't indicate that's your only or primary motivation. Anyway, I guess I'll see you over at nesdev forums...

[GroovyBee]

malducci, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 1:18 PM, said:

.... That's just silly. It gives the opportunity to start learning the system right away, without having to purchase or invest anything anything upfront. The real hardware is definitely required, IMO ('cause that should be your primary target for compatibility), but not necessary for starting out and getting familiar with/learning the system.

I didn't say I didn't use them, its just I don't trust them. Have you tried to debug anything in the 7800's ProSystem emulator? Guess not, because it doesn't actually have a debugger .

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I mean, it's not like you're going to be pumping out any such timing sensitive FXs or such right from the start.

How do you know? You seem to be very sure of my abilities.

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Wait.. so you are going to 'see what it can do', to compare it against another system? It doesn't matter where your bias lies. Or even if you have no bias (relatively speaking). Learning to code for a system based on that premise, is still pretty shallow. So what I stated previous about 'knowing' the system still stands.

In your opinion it is shallow to me its a comparison.

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So what's that supposed to mean? That you'll intimately know the NES or what other system in a year as well? I know of two people that have learned a system (each for a different system) within a year as well (and put out a game on the corresponding systems too).

I've started eight games on the 7800 in just over a year and completed two. Most of the games will end up being non-trivial. One was even a port from the BBC micro home computer.

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Don't get me wrong, I know you've done some stuff and I don't think you're a noob to coding for a console.

Correct! However you should be happy that anybody wants to code for the NES instead of being overly defensive about it in my opinion. The turf war happened years ago you know .

[Emehr]

malducci, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 1:18 PM, said:

so you are going to 'see what it can do', to compare it against another system? It doesn't matter where your bias lies. Or even if you have no bias (relatively speaking). Learning to code for a system based on that premise, is still pretty shallow. So what I stated previous about 'knowing' the system still stands.

What's the issue here? Who cares why he's learning to code for the NES? I think you're reading way too much into this.

[ls650]

malducci, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 2:00 AM, said:

Well... that's a very poor reason to want to code for a system, IMO. You code for a system you have love for, not because you want to 'measure up' the system.

I imagine there are as many different reasons to develop for a system as there are developers - everyone codes for his/her own reasons, not the reasons of others.

[Greg2600]

Well, I've been looking, and I haven't found too many worthy NES homebrews. I've seen some really good stuff in NES style, but they are not true NES coded games. They are Flash-based or whatever.

[goldenegg]

Emehr, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 1:58 PM, said:

What's the issue here? Who cares why he's learning to code for the NES? I think you're reading way too much into this.

I think malducci is just making excuses for not being great at certain things himself. "I must not LOVE this, so I'm not getting good at it."

[malducci]

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How do you know? You seem to be very sure of my abilities.

Hahaha, that's pretty arrogant. You're right I don't know you, but if 7800 is all you ever done for a console, *and* only a year's worth of coding - then I say it's safe assumption to make. You don't agree? But hey, maybe you're a prodigy

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I didn't say I didn't use them, its just I don't trust them. Have you tried to debug anything in the 7800's ProSystem emulator? Guess not, because it doesn't actually have a debugger .

Nope. Never cared for 7800 real or emulation (development or game). And uhm... I was referring specifically to the NES. How can you miss-interpret that? This is a thread about you obtaining an NES flash cart. You making the statement that you can now start NES development. Or you just trying to be a smart ass?

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I've started eight games on the 7800 in just over a year and completed two. Most of the games will end up being non-trivial. One was even a port from the BBC micro home computer.

Congratulations. And? There are people that haven't completed a game ever for a specific system, but they know more about that system than you or I. I could also put out a ton of easy/simplistic project/games for system X. Doesn't say much of my ability (other than putting something out).

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Correct! However you should be happy that anybody wants to code for the NES instead of being overly defensive about it in my opinion. The turf war happened years ago you know.

Why should I be happy? There are plenty of people that code for system. And what turf war? Defensive? Ok, in case you have reading comprehension fail, I'll sum up my two original points I made to you: One is the shallowness behind your reason/motivation for coding on the NES/SMS or such system (I think you got that one), the other is the fallacy you can think you can speak with authority about such systems simply because you put out one or two simple games (lol, a year). Anyway, simple as that. I'm not saying don't code for the NES. Go right ahead. I'm just making some observations (apparently I'm not supposed to do that on people that develop for the 7800?). I guess I'd rather see a homebrewer put their heart into coding for a console, rather than just add a system to their rap sheet and/or a trophy in which validates them to speak with more authority. That's all.

And to your groupies on here: Grownups are talking. If you like his work, great. I think it's pretty damn cool to see 7800 stuff being put out too. Simplistic or advanced (doesn't matter, homebrew in general is great and on any system). But maybe you shouldn't jump to you savors defense if you don't understand the context of my replies. Besides, I'm sure he can answer for himself. Thanks

[goldenegg]

Why are you so intent on picking a fight? Your responses have been rude from the start and nothing was done to provoke you. If you want to troll, please go elsewhere!

[malducci]

goldenegg, on Wed Aug 4, 2010 12:24 AM, said:

Why are you so intent on picking a fight? Your responses have been rude from the start and nothing was done to provoke you. If you want to troll, please go elsewhere!

I'm not picking a fight. If I was picking a fight, I would be directly attacking his works and such (and pretty vulgar about it too). I asked a valid question to the original poster. I made a valid criticism/point as well. Because you don't like my opinions, I'm a troll? You're the one making direct insults to me, when I wasn't originally or directly replying/talking to you. I was only interested in responding to the OP. Get over yourself.

Edited by malducci, Wed Aug 4, 2010 12:29 AM.

[jaybird3rd]

malducci, on Wed Aug 4, 2010 12:16 AM, said:

And to your groupies on here: Grownups are talking. If you like his work, great. I think it's pretty damn cool to see 7800 stuff being put out too. Simplistic or advanced (doesn't matter, homebrew in general is great and on any system). But maybe you shouldn't jump to you savors defense if you don't understand the context of my replies. Besides, I'm sure he can answer for himself. Thanks

What, exactly, is your problem? We all pursue homebrew projects for our own reasons, and anything GroovyBee does on the NES for whatever reason he chooses can't possibly affect you, so why do you even care? If you don't like the fact that (according to you) he "speaks with authority", why not put him on your ignore list, just as I'm sure lots of people have already put you on theirs. If you're going to pick on GroovyBee because of the "simplicity" and infrequency of his projects, why not show us what you've done so we can decide for ourselves who's the more productive and brilliant.

Yes, he is perfectly capable of "answering for himself," but every minute he wastes talking to you is a minute that isn't spent working on the projects that he enjoys, and I don't want to see any homebrew developer (particularly one of the most prolific and helpful ones on these forums) get worn down from being picked apart by anonymous gnats and fleas like yourself. You've already expressed your asinine opinion, and we don't need to hear more of your snarky responses to each and every comment that everyone makes, so stop picking fights and go back to your own (probably non-existent) projects.

And before you fire off yet another tiresome response, remember that hitting back will only make you look like even more of an idiot. Just go away! Please!

[goldenegg]

jaybird3rd,

+1

GroovyBee,

Back on topic ... are you thinking about porting Halloween to the NES when you're done or do you have a brand new project in mind?

[malducci]

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why not put him on your ignore list

Because I'm not fucking mad at him or such. WTF is wrong with you people?? Seriously, reading comprehension fucking fail or what? My god...

[Emehr]

malducci, on Wed Aug 4, 2010 12:16 AM, said:

And to your groupies on here: Grownups are talking.

Again I ask, why are you so offended by his reasons for programming for the NES?

malducci said:

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why not put him on your ignore list

Because I'm not fucking mad at him or such. WTF is wrong with you people?? Seriously, reading comprehension fucking fail or what? My god...

Nope, not angry at all

[tep392]

malducci, on Wed Aug 4, 2010 1:18 AM, said:

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why not put him on your ignore list

Because I'm not fucking mad at him or such. WTF is wrong with you people?? Seriously, reading comprehension fucking fail or what? My god...

What happened to the adult conversation? Can't convince anyone of the validity of your point so you resort to a childish tirade. So sad.