109 replies to this topic

[jaybird3rd]

The recent dust-up over unauthorized downloads of homebrew ColecoVision games has lead to a broader discussion of the ethics of the homebrew gaming community. One of the topics that has arisen in that discussion is the prospect of digital distribution of homebrew games. It is a prospect that raises several intriguing possibilities, questions, and challenges for the homebrew community, and this topic is intended as a place to explore these issues and to move the discussion forward.

Despite their questionable legality, dumps (or "digital copies") of old commercial games for classic computers and consoles have been circulating over the Internet for years. But, with the exception of those games that have explicitly been made available for free, digital copies of homebrew games for those same platforms have been frowned upon by the community, particularly those games that are still being sold and supported by their respective authors. Historically, these homebrew games have been distributed using the platforms' original storage media, such as ROM cartridges or optical discs, so they can be easily enjoyed on the original hardware. Now that emulators and alternative media (such as hard disk drives or flash-based multi-carts) are available for many of these platforms, there has been increasing demand among collectors of homebrew games for a convenient way to obtain digital copies of these games, in addition to--or possibly even as a substitute for--receiving them on physical media. This has raised concerns about software piracy and the resulting loss of income among homebrew authors.

One possible solution to this problem is the idea of digital copies of homebrew games that are created by the authors themselves. This is not a new idea, and it has been tried by individual authors on an experimental basis in the past, but I believe it is an idea whose time has come and that it would be worthwhile for the homebrew community as a whole to consider adopting it. It offers several compelling advantages over traditional methods of manufacturing and distribution:

• It eliminates the overhead and expense involved in sourcing or manufacturing the physical media;
  
• It eliminates the added costs of packaging, shipping, and handling;
  
• It enables more convenient methods of game distribution (for example, through a centralized "e-store" akin to Apple's iTunes), allowing developers to focus on developing;
  
• Through emulation, it makes possible the sale of homebrew games to collectors who may not even own the platforms for which those games were developed.

However, it also raises several potential questions and challenges, including:

• Price Points: What is a "fair price" for a digital copy of a homebrew game that would ordinarily be sold for $30 to $60 (or even more) on physical media?
  
• Distribution: Will new distribution channels need to be created? If so, how?
  
• Piracy: If homebrew authors distribute digital copies of their work, what is to prevent the work from being pirated?

The issue of piracy has been the main objection to digital distribution. There have been several proposed solutions, most of which have centered on the idea of embedding one or more unique identifiers (serial numbers, etc) inside the digital copies so that they can be traced back to their original owners. One necessary requirement of this idea would be a way to protect this identifier so that it cannot be changed, or at least a method of detecting changes so that copies that have been tampered with can be disabled or made to behave differently in some way, depending on the author's preference.

There are many possible ways of meeting these requirements, and perhaps even completely different anti-piracy measures that might be more effective. One of the purposes of this topic is to get the discussion going, and I'll start by throwing out a few of my own opinions about what the ideal solution would be like:

• It would involve embedding multiple unique identifiers inside each digital copy, or at least multiple copies of the same identifier.
  
• It would use a method of encryption that is strong enough to provide real protection but simple enough that decryption can feasibly be implemented on the target hardware.
  
• It would use an open decryption implementation that can be shared by multiple developers, eliminating the need for individual developers to "roll their own" encryption.
  
• It would not require the developer to perform custom compiles for every unique copy of the game. Ideally, the encryption could be applied to a precompiled binary, using a utility that can be run from within a script so that multiple unique copies can be created automatically, either by the author or by the distributor.

So, whether you're a developer, a collector, a distributor, or even a disinterested outsider, what do you think? Does the prospect of digital distribution appeal to you, or would you prefer to continue using physical media? Do you have any ideas about how unique identifiers or encryption could be implemented, or how the ordering and delivery of digital copies should work? Thanks in advance for your input!

EDIT: Before responding, please read and reflect upon the subsequent posts in this thread. Many readers seem to have concluded from the above that I am talking about implementing some form of DRM, and I explain in my subsequent posts--repeatedly and at some length--why this is not the case. I also explain further my view of the role of money for homebrew developers: put briefly, while developers should not participate in this hobby primarily as a way of making money, the money that they do receive is nevertheless a powerful and motivating expression of community support, and should be protected. To say that they shouldn't be after a big bank account is not to say that they shouldn't even be entitled to a tip jar.

[Emehr]

As a player: physical copies. Legitimate digital distribution and any kind of copy protection and DRM limitations that go along with it will suck the fun right out of this hobby. I download 2600 homebrew ROMs so I can try out the game. If I like it, I buy it. Simple as that. This isn't a multimillion dollar industry. Nobody's losing their livelihood for each illegally downloaded ROM. Most programmers do this as a hobby. Each physical purchase of a cartridge helps put a little money back into their pockets and encourages them to develop more games.

[roland p]

Like Emehr, I like the current system where you can buy physical copies or just download the ROM.

[jaybird3rd]

Emehr, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 5:49 AM, said:

Legitimate digital distribution and any kind of copy protection and DRM limitations that go along with it will suck the fun right out of this hobby.

That wasn't what I was talking about. "Copy protection and DRM limitations" implies locking games to particular consoles, or limiting the number of backups you can create, or limiting the types of platforms the game can be used on, but that's not what I mean at all.

In the scenario I was describing, unique identifiers and encryption would only be used to prevent tampering with the binaries and as a deterrent against piracy, since the sources of pirated copies online could be identified. The cartridge you buy would have a serial number in it, as would the ROM you download, but you'd never have to know it unless you tried to go in and change it, or unless you made a copy and gave it to somebody else. You could use the ROM in any emulator on any platform you want, just as you would an ordinary ROM.

I should also clarify that I'm not talking about doing away with physical media, or making people choose between physical or digital copies. There will always be room, and demand, for both.

[GroovyBee]

To some people part of the challenge for developing a game is that you set yourself a goal of fitting it within a certain ROM size. If you have to factor in signatures, keys and decryption code into that space equation it gives you much less room for your game. Even if you add extra "protection" around the binary that the emulator knows to strip off it still leaves it open to abuse because most emulators are open source. All you'd have to do would be to to find in the code where to strip the "protection" and then write the binary straight to file.

I don't think that there is an easy solution.

[youki]

The solution would be may be to "sponsorize" the development before it actually starts.

Let imagine , AtariAge create a poll to know what user would like to have as homebrew.

Then, AtariAge ask for donation to contribute to the development. when an certain amount (to define) of money is reached . A developper what is interrest in doing a specific game in the sponsored project list , take the project (not the money yet).

Once the project is completed. AtariAge give the money to the developper. And the Rom files is available for Free. and of course some packaged version can be done also in the traditionnal way.

I think , it could work.

Homebrew developper could also propose idea for project to be sponsorised of course.

[RangerG]

Just a few thoughts:

I love the idea and I know I would purchase digital copies of homebrews. I'm just not a big fan of the box, manual, and cart for a new game. It doesn't hold any nostalgia for me and it takes up room, but I really appreciate and enjoy the games that have come out of the homebrew community. If one pays for a rom, I would hope that the person would have some ownership value attached to it and not share it. I can see piracy being an issue, and I don't know a solution. I think $5-$10 would be fair for a game.

Take care,
RG

[Emehr]

jaybird3rd, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 6:06 AM, said:

The cartridge you buy would have a serial number in it, as would the ROM you download, but you'd never have to know it unless you tried to go in and change it, or unless you made a copy and gave it to somebody else.

The problem is, every byte is sacred in a 2600 game. How many should be allocated for a serial number? I'm not sure how many 2600 homebrew titles exceeded 256 units in sales but in the event they do, two bytes would probably be needed to account for the possibility of sales exceeding that number. That's two bytes that could have been used for game play logic, graphics, data, etc.

Not only that, all it would take is one unscrupulous person with distella and knowledge of stella programming to devote the rest of their days finding these serial numbers or breaking the encryption, modify this data, and redistribute the binary.

I'm not sure what would be a good solution but in the case of the 2600 homebrew scene, I'm not sure there is a problem to have a solution for!

[GroovyBee]

One of the other problems is the incentive to pay for a download. Many homebrew authors (myself included) give WIPs away and also the final binary. How do you persuade multi-cart/emulator users to part with their cash for the legitimate article? You'd need some some sort of "points mean prizes" thing going on in the store.

[jetset]

jaybird3rd, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 5:27 AM, said:

So, whether you're a developer, a collector, a distributor, or even a disinterested outsider, what do you think? Does the prospect of digital distribution appeal to you, or would you prefer to continue using physical media? Do you have any ideas about how unique identifiers or encryption could be implemented, or how the ordering and delivery of digital copies should work? Thanks in advance for your input!

Physical media. Like the whole hullabaloo over pirated movies, cd's, etc...just owning a digital file does not equal the same thing as owning the real thing. For me, if I wanted to own a plain old file I would have stuck with emulation and never looked back.

[e1will]

I like the idea of authorized digital distribution. Here are my thoughts:

1. Let people download and try your game for free for as long as they like, without any DRM or strings attached.

2. If they love the game and want to reward your effort, but don't have enough money for a cartridge (or don't even have a console to play it on), suggest a donation via PayPal (say, $5) as a way of saying thanks to the developer. It's important to emphasize that this is optional (although greatly appreciated) so that people won't feel ripped off if they paid $5 (or whatever) and then see the binary floating around elsewhere for free.

3. Offer a special digital package for a little extra. For $15, you get a custom, numbered binary with the number of your choice that will display in the credits or title screen, zipped up with an RTF or HTML manual. Each binary is unique, so there'd only be one "#1", one "#2", etc. (Who wants Duck Attack digital edition #1? )

I don't like the idea of random jerks taking my work and putting it on a CD with a thousand other ROMs they found on the Internet and getting cash for it, but I think the solution to the piracy issue is not trying to punish the bad guys by slathering DRM, digital signatures and the like on your work, because you'll just end up irritating and inconveniencing legitimate users, and the DRM will just get cracked by someone anyway. Instead, you should reward the good guys (homebrewers and game players) by giving the game players an easy way to reward the developer, and giving the developer a way to reward the player with special editions.

--Will

P.S. I wrote an anti-DRM parable a while back that sums up my feelings on the issue: http://willnicholes....appleseller.htm

[GroovyBee]

e1will, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 7:46 AM, said:

3. Offer a special digital package for a little extra. For $15, you get a custom, numbered binary with the number of your choice that will display in the credits or title screen, zipped up with an RTF or HTML manual. Each binary is unique, so there'd only be one "#1", one "#2", etc. (Who wants Duck Attack digital edition #1? )

For the two cart releases I've done so far there have been a limited edition numbered run (number shown on the title page) and a standard edition so it would be difficult to add extra value to the downloadable binary image in that case.

[Kurt_Woloch]

e1will, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 7:46 AM, said:

P.S. I wrote an anti-DRM parable a while back that sums up my feelings on the issue: http://willnicholes....appleseller.htm

I really like that parable! I think it was already written in the bible that apples grow on trees freely... so it's a very good analogy to the copying of games. Of course they don't grow in trees, but they also can be copied without actually harming anyone - except for the seller which MAYBE gets deprived of the revenue... if the buyer would have bought the game legitimately at all and if the buyer would have known where and how to buy.

So... is there any special digital package for that parable? :-)

[potatohead]

Maybe this could work like a tip jar. Like Curt, I would pay for a game I found entertaining, or noteworthy. I don't play too many, and I don't buy too many, and that's just where I'm at personally. Would love more of both!

I don't collect ROM files either. I've some, but not a ton. If one strikes me as interesting, or that maybe it should see a review, or whatever, I'll generally just go ask for it. Why not?

DRM and all that goes with it really is a turn off. At least in the older 8 bit scene, looking at the games technically is a big part of the fun, as is the often open development process. Would be a shame to lose that.

If there was a place to spend on ones they enjoy or want to support, quite a few people simply would. IMHO, the key to this is to provide options for those wanting to do that, ignoring those that won't or never will for whatever reason. One nice thing about doing that is smaller amounts make sense. Either buying a cart or not is sometimes difficult. It is for me, and that's due to having sick people around, nothing else. I would have a pile of the things, looking for more, if that were not true.

I think participating in this hobby is way more fun than commercial gaming is. The reason for that is the low expectations, and open nature of it. We get to see, learn, do, play, talk with everybody, and that's just attractive on a lot of levels. --every bit as attractive as the simple nostalgia is.

I bet that's true for a lot of people, so give them an option. One other interesting thing here is that I find myself often completely skipping commercial, modern console gaming. It's a lot more fun to go and buy old goodies, and jam on them like we do here. The only commercial games I buy are ones that my wife or kids want to play, and that's not many as it's often viable to just swap with friends. Wonder how many do that, and if that number is significant, and there is a tip jar kind of model, good things could happen!

One thing that's been demonstrated by some entrepreneurial authors is that when people can easily pay, a lot of them just do. The ones that don't, or can't, or won't --just don't do it, and their reasons are good enough for them, as are the number of things where it's possible to do that.

DRM is about making it possible, so that everyone pays for every use. What has also been shown is where that's true, there are simply a lot fewer uses, not a ton more dollars paid. For this hobby, that's a killer, IMHO, and the difference between a hobby and an actual market niche.

There have been more successful authors of various kinds using this model, in tandem with some rather ordinary means of distribution.

One thing that Cory Doctrow demonstrated, that I think is relevant here, is one can leverage free. In the end, each use is mind-share, and that's worth something. What he did was become the authority online for free distribution of his stuff. Plenty of it is sold the old fashioned way, and he does books, so it's really about physical copies, like it is for us with carts. What he found is when the stuff was available digitally, more people consumed it, that grew his mind share, and he sold more ordinary books! The side effect, which was particularly relevant to our hobby, was his digital license permitted derivatives to be made, so long as they were not sold for profit. He gladly hosts those at the same site where his books are available for anyone to read. What happened is his books became translated into other languages, some fan works have been done (some of which are very good), and those books are available on any device capable of serving as a reader for them.

http://www.craphound.org

Some of those ideas could work well for home brew gaming, IMHO.

It makes no sense to actually pirate his stuff, because it's there for the asking, and while a person is there, they have the opportunity to send some dollars his way. It's a very interesting model commercially. His stature as an author has grown considerably, because he's using that mind share to his advantage. With home brew, it might be a way to significantly grow the hobby without the hassles.

The one thing that disturbs me about making digital distribution more formal, is that it will attract the wrong kind of attention. An awful lot of good things run under the radar, and we are permitted to have some good times. If the perception grows that it's not just a small niche, so will the expectations, and that will kill off some of those fun things. The question is whether or not, other things back fill, and or the hobby kind of splits, where small communities continue to do their thing under that radar, while a more open, growing one, focused on original games grows to compete with indie gaming.

Edited by potatohead, Tue Aug 3, 2010 8:43 AM.

[the.golden.ax]

It seems to me that in the past several developers were able to give away their goods by allowing the customers to decide what amount to donate. This is a great idea still today. Anyone who wants to support the homebrewers will want to support them as much as possible. Since a site would cost something to maintain, perhaps a "donate what you like, minimum $1" would be appropriate. To make sure that at least the bases were covered, in addition to being able to log back in and donate MORE if you like the game/author.

AX

[Retro Rogue]

GroovyBee, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 7:22 AM, said:

One of the other problems is the incentive to pay for a download. Many homebrew authors (myself included) give WIPs away and also the final binary. How do you persuade multi-cart/emulator users to part with their cash for the legitimate article? You'd need some some sort of "points mean prizes" thing going on in the store.

a) You stop giving the final binary away. b) You price it accordingly (i.e. realisticaly). As people already posted in the other thread, they're more than willing to support homebrewers by buying their rom to use in emulators and multicarts. And we're not talking about a windfall, we're talking about an avenue that's currently generating no money vs. potentially some.

And regarding what I'm seeing discussed with DRM issues, I never suggested DRM. I think that's silly with regards to games like these, and near impossible to implement in these older consoles unless you're talking about in regards to immplementing it in emulators only. DRM usually works in conjunction with the playing device or software. My suggestion was that if homebrewers were releasing more games based on original works, those works would be protected for them under DMCA and they could legally do things like contact the webhost of a site to yank a site that's selling or distributing their games.

It comes down to that currently the games are being distributed and sold digitially whether you like it or not and you're getting nothing for your efforts and nothing to support future development except for when you produce full carts (which you should continue to do). Having an online medium where people who want to support you guys and legally purchase the roms for use in emulators and flash carts would at least attempt to bring something your way vs nothing. It would also bring more of a presence to the homebrew community for people who don't hang out at AtariAge and don't know much about it, extending the range and reach of your work. We deal with this scenerio constantly at game shows like the Midwest Gaming Classic, where we have a constant influx of people new to this (I'd estimate a good 4200 of the almost 5000 we had this year) that have never heard of AA and had no idea people are making new games for old system and are often stoked to find out they are.

Edited by wgungfu, Tue Aug 3, 2010 9:25 AM.

[the.golden.ax]

wgungfu, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 9:04 AM, said:

GroovyBee, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 7:22 AM, said:

One of the other problems is the incentive to pay for a download. Many homebrew authors (myself included) give WIPs away and also the final binary. How do you persuade multi-cart/emulator users to part with their cash for the legitimate article? You'd need some some sort of "points mean prizes" thing going on in the store.

a) You stop giving the final binary away. b) You price it accordingly (i.e. realisticaly). As people already posted in the other thread, they're more than willing to support homebrewers by buying their rom to use in emulators and multicarts. And we're not talking about a windfall, we're talking about an avenue that's currently generating no money vs. some.

Hey, that and people don't always want to search around for 100+ posts to get the games on their flash cart. There could be awesome packages like Atari Age years 2001 - 2002 with a couple dozen roms for $25. (Brainstorming)

AX

[RangerG]

I really don't think copy-protection is needed. It's going to be cumbersome for those that will legally pay and it will be gotten around anyway by those that want to illegally get a copy. This is a small community and despite the bickering at times, I think you'd be surprised how many buyers would legally pay for digital distribution (if the price is reasonable). People will pay to support something that helps the community (just look at the AtariAge subscriber idea). I don't know how many people are subscribers and financially support AA, but it seems to be a good amount?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I say: Ignore the pirates! Whatever you do to protect your ROM, there will always people who can do better.

I am not here for the money as this quickly can ruin the hobby, so I will only be after people ruining it (e.g. selling without permission). If people just download the binary and never buy the game, then it is either not good enough to pay for or they don't think it is fair to sponsor the development. The first case I can change, the 2nd not.

[the.golden.ax]

I really think the focus needs to shift from piracy and the prevention, to distribution and voluntary support for your favorite games/author. Sure, you could get any game for free, and there will be those who do that. Convenience and helping the homebrew guys out should be the main goals IMHO.

AX

[newcoleco]

I've added a "donation button" in my new Coleco web site. I did promote my web site a few weeks ago, here and on Youtube. So far, no donation whatsoever, but I presume it's normal, it's reccent, new, so I should wait months before it really starts. And don't feel the need to visit my web site and make a donation just because I've talked about it... I prefer to get a real feedback regarding this option.

NewColeco's web site ( still in construction )

http://www.ccjvq.com/newcoleco

[Kripto]

As a multi-platform software developer, I will say that every moment spend on anti-piracy measures is time wasted.

Provide a demo ROM, sell a full digital version and offer a deluxe physical copy with extras for those who want it. That, in my opinion, is the best strategy in this market at present.

[Mord]

wgungfu, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 9:04 AM, said:

GroovyBee, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 7:22 AM, said:

One of the other problems is the incentive to pay for a download. Many homebrew authors (myself included) give WIPs away and also the final binary. How do you persuade multi-cart/emulator users to part with their cash for the legitimate article? You'd need some some sort of "points mean prizes" thing going on in the store.

a) You stop giving the final binary away. b) You price it accordingly (i.e. realisticaly). As people already posted in the other thread, they're more than willing to support homebrewers by buying their rom to use in emulators and multicarts. And we're not talking about a windfall, we're talking about an avenue that's currently generating no money vs. potentially some.

Actually that might be a bit off. How many people have stated on the forums that they insist on being able to play the final product before deciding if they'll buy a cart of it? In some homebrew scenes, not giving away the final binary may actually impact cartridge sales negatively.

[Emehr]

Mord, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 1:04 PM, said:

wgungfu, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 9:04 AM, said:

GroovyBee, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 7:22 AM, said:

One of the other problems is the incentive to pay for a download. Many homebrew authors (myself included) give WIPs away and also the final binary. How do you persuade multi-cart/emulator users to part with their cash for the legitimate article? You'd need some some sort of "points mean prizes" thing going on in the store.

a) You stop giving the final binary away. b) You price it accordingly (i.e. realisticaly). As people already posted in the other thread, they're more than willing to support homebrewers by buying their rom to use in emulators and multicarts. And we're not talking about a windfall, we're talking about an avenue that's currently generating no money vs. potentially some.

Actually that might be a bit off. How many people have stated on the forums that they insist on being able to play the final product before deciding if they'll buy a cart of it? In some homebrew scenes, not giving away the final binary may actually impact cartridge sales negatively.

I agree, but maybe a "final-gimped" version can be released. It would have all of the finalized gameplay and graphical elements intact but will have a generic title screen or something that sets it apart from the cartridge version, which would have the cool title screen. Problem is, once the "cool-ungimped" cartridge is dumped by someone unscrupulous, that method goes out the door.

I like the incentives-to-buy-binaries option. If the incentives translate into a tangible product (manual, trading card, whatever) that would be a lot more effective than any serial numbers or copy protection can offer. There will always be pirates. Playing this leapfrog game with them is pointless. Instead, let's focus our energies on making it worthwhile to purchase the homebrew (be it a binary or cartridge).

[Retro Rogue]

Kripto, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 1:02 PM, said:

As a multi-platform software developer, I will say that every moment spend on anti-piracy measures is time wasted.

Provide a demo ROM, sell a full digital version and offer a deluxe physical copy with extras for those who want it. That, in my opinion, is the best strategy in this market at present.

Exactly what I've been promoting. And I think it's the right way to go. I took a lot of flack back in 2001 when I wrote an editorial calling for year round sales of homebrew carts in order to combat the insane "only available at x show release" ebay profiteers around at the time. (Even told by some I was against homebrewers and the scene, which was silly). But I was right and was proven right when Al started supporting all of you in the AtariAge store in 2003, and some of the other homebrew stores started popping up. And I do believe I'm right on this again.

Edited by wgungfu, Tue Aug 3, 2010 2:30 PM.