109 replies to this topic

[thegoldenband]

jaybird3rd, on Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:23 PM, said:

But even that is a flawed analogy because it implies that homebrew games should be treated as commercial ventures, and as I've said before, I think that's the wrong way to approach homebrew development; the potential market is too small to do it for any other reason than the love of video games and the love of the creative process involved in making them. But creating even relatively simple games takes a lot of work--more work, I daresay, than it takes to dash off a simple love song--and I don't think it's unreasonable to send someone a few dollars if you derive enjoyment from a game they've created.

Absolutely, but the key question here is whether the transfer of funds represents a purchase or a donation. If it's a voluntary donation and the game is otherwise freely available for download, then I'd gladly give $5 -- $7 is pushing it, but not out of the question -- to a developer who's made a game I like a lot. (If anything, I'm likely to make that donation after a great deal of gameplay, in the same way that I'll often go out and buy a CD after I've extensively listened to a downloaded/burned copy, as a way of expressing thanks for the enjoyment I've experienced and support for the artist.)

I guess I'm not clear on what a fixed dollar figure would represent, or what function it would serve. I can understand having a minimum donation to offset costs and overhead of the donation process itself, or a "suggested donation" to establish a baseline. But otherwise, why not let people contribute whatever they deem appropriate? It worked for the Humble Bundle, after all.

If on the other hand I'm being asked to purchase a game that's otherwise not available to me, then $1 is the price point that would draw me in. The half-life of your average VCS title is just so short that I can't justify spending an hour's wages (after taxes) on less than an hour's worth of entertainment. There are exceptions, of course, but without a tangible object it's a harder sell.

Edited by thegoldenband, Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:03 PM.

[jaybird3rd]

thegoldenband, on Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:02 PM, said:

Absolutely, but the key question here is whether the transfer of funds represents a purchase or a donation. If it's a voluntary donation and the game is otherwise freely available for download, then I'd gladly give $5 -- $7 is pushing it, but not out of the question -- to a developer who's made a game I like a lot. (If anything, I'm likely to make that donation after a great deal of gameplay, in the same way that I'll often go out and buy a CD after I've extensively listened to a downloaded/burned copy, as a way of expressing thanks for the enjoyment I've experienced and support for the artist.)

I guess I'm not clear on what a fixed dollar figure would represent, or what function it would serve. I can understand having a minimum donation to offset costs and overhead of the donation process itself, or a "suggested donation" to establish a baseline. But otherwise, why not let people contribute whatever they deem appropriate? It worked for the Humble Bundle, after all.

If on the other hand I'm being asked to purchase a game that's otherwise not available to me, then $1 is the price point that would draw me in. The half-life of your average VCS title is just so short that I can't justify spending an hour's wages (after taxes) on less than an hour's worth of entertainment. There are exceptions, of course, but without a tangible object it's a harder sell.

Good questions, and I think that different authors would probably have different views. Some of them don't seem to mind posting the ROMs for their games for free after they feel the games have run their course in terms of cartridge sales, while others don't seem to want their games available for free even if they're only selling a few cartridges a year: I don't know how many copies of Combat 1990 are still being sold, for example, but it's been out for several years now and no ROM has been officially released (that's one of the homebrew titles that I do own on cartridge). Others seem to be happy with a combined arrangement: buy the cartridge if you're a collector who wants the full package, pay a few bucks for the ROM if you don't need the package but want to support the author's work, or download the game and play it for free. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but this seems to be the position that Thomas expressed earlier.

If digital distribution is going to work for everyone, it needs to be as flexible as possible so that it can accommodate all of these different authors' wishes. In addition to the paid options, perhaps there should also be a free download for authors who want to provide this, with the additional option of a "tip jar" to send the author a little money. Personally, I don't know that I'd want my stuff circulating out there completely for free, without any way of knowing how many people are using it, whether they like it, whether they want to see more of my work, and so forth. So, in my case, I'd want to provide an option to buy it either as a physical cartridge or as a digital download, but I'd also want to have a way of giving potential buyers links to gameplay videos on YouTube, reviews from other players, and other resources that would help them make an informed decision.

These are all merely suggestions, but I think these are some of the elements a successful online marketplace for homebrew games would need to have.

[potatohead]

I am not feeling good about setting expectations like these.

One of the great things about home brew is stuff gets done when it gets done, and it gets done because people want to do it. When dollars are a part of that, it's a great "thank you", but nobody seriously expects enough income to make it worth more solid expectations do they?

If so, that really isn't home brew anymore. That's something else entirely. Maybe not a bad thing, mind you, just a different thing.

As for not reaching gamers, I suppose that's true enough, but how many really? If they have one of the older systems, and they know what home brew is, they've been reached.

If this marketplace were to rise in prominence, to the point where random people see it and start spending money, a lot of issues come into play then! What if the rights holders put the hammer down on what is a hobby activity right now, but is something more in their eyes because of this thing? What if people start expecting $5 for a download, and get pissed when somebody else just releases a ROM to play for nothing, or self-publishes their own carts, instead of going the usual route, etc... ???

Could get ugly, and that's not really being discussed. A whole bunch of work depends on rights holders kind of looking the other way too. They don't have to do that you know, and if there is some real attention on this stuff, I think they won't do that anymore, and that's a big loss. We enjoy relative freedom on most things. What if that isn't there anymore? Community that freely exchanges copies of "Space Invaders", while expecting $5 for a download of "killer bungies III by Bob?"

Now, raising the expectations, getting some consistency, that's not hobby anymore, that's work, and where there is work going on, there is money, and that's where it comes back around and gets difficult for me. I appreciate the labors of love, and paid great money for a cart or two, that I love to play and show off, but that's kind of it for me. Doing much above that means it's not really special anymore, and that just doesn't have the same appeal.

Retro is fun because it's low key, great projects are kind of special, and we really are lucky to have the scene we do. Change that into some expectation that there needs to be a scene, because there is demand, and suddenly you don't have a fun scene any more, and that's a loss in my book.

Sorry jaybird3rd. I hear what you are trying to say, but I'm not really sure that's where I personally would want to be. This is fun hobby stuff that might result in some mad money, or a "thank you", and it ranges from some goofy bB game that catches on to some really great projects, to the Ian $500 art show. That's homebrew! All over the map, fun people, games, projects, machines, etc...

The appeal of a few more dollars in return for some significantly raised expectations doesn't seem worth it to me. Maybe it is to others. I kind of like the Thomas route personally. Raising the profile above that might cost a lot more than people think it will.

Edited by potatohead, Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:01 PM.

[jaybird3rd]

I think I understand what you're saying, and I certainly recognize that there are "growing pains" associated with trying to extend homebrew gaming beyond a relatively small group of collectors and hobbyists. The issues you've raised really require a comprehensive response, and again, I'm not sure this is the appropriate venue. I get the impression that the people here become impatient with the length of my posts on this subject, but I don't know how to do the subject justice otherwise. When I (finally) get my website online next year, I plan to write in some depth on this topic, because it gets into some areas that have bugged me about the way the classic gaming hobby has evolved in the fourteen years or so that I've been following it.

For right now, to put it as briefly as possible, I suppose a lot of what we're talking about here all comes back to motivation: why are there creative people who are interested in making games for old systems in the first place, what is the spark that drives them to do it, and how can their fellow hobbyists help to keep that spark alive so they can continue doing it?

When it comes to creative people in general, the distinction is usually made between those who work solely for the money, and those who work as a labor of love with no thought of monetary compensation. To me, this is a false dichotomy which leaves out an entirely separate and distinguishable category of humanity: creative people who do what they do as a labor of love while at the same time wanting the people who benefit from their work to send them both material and non-material expressions of their appreciation. "I'll create fun games that my fellow classic gamers will enjoy playing so I can get a kick out of seeing how much fun they're having with them, and they'll each send me a few bucks per game so I don't have to go entirely out of pocket for the development tools and other resources that I need, and also so I can take my wife out to dinner every once in a while to make up for all the evenings and weekends I've spent coding for twenty-year-old video game consoles." The money isn't the ultimate end, you see, but merely one of the means: it's a way for those who contribute to the hobby and for their fellow hobbyists to exchange mutual values. The fact that money changes hands in this context doesn't make it any less of a hobby, in my view, either for the giver or for the receiver.

One other issue you raised has to do with the dangers of enlarging the homebrew hobby to the point where it becomes a commercial enterprise, and thereby attracts undesirable attention from copyright owners whose properties are being exploited. I frankly don't see any danger of things growing to that point; even if a digital marketplace doubles the number of people who buy homebrew games, that's still too small of an audience to sustain any kind of serious commercial motivation. But the issue of all the unauthorized ports and clones is a legitimate one, and I suppose this is one reason that I (among others) have been pushing for more originality from homebrew developers. I understand the stated reasons why many of them choose to implement ports of other old games (the games are more familiar, it's more of a technical challenge to replicate a known design, they're interested only in learning the hardware and not in new game design, etc.), but to be honest, I think that after their first or second game, most developers do it out of laziness more often than not. Personally, I intend to choose nothing but original concepts to implement in my own projects (after I finish my first one and after I complete only one legally safe "port" of a popular game), mainly because I don't want to have to go through life hiding what I do from somebody who might have the authority to sue me or hit me with a C&D letter. That's not my idea of a fun hobby.

Perhaps what I really need to do is to "put my money where my mouth is," so to speak. I have a number of development projects on my plate for next year, and one of the things I plan to do is to conduct some small experiments with novel methods of game distribution on my own, just to gauge the response of the user community. Whether these ideas can be extended to other projects and to other platforms, I don't know, but it will be an interesting thing to try.

[potatohead]

Well PM me then. I'm curious about what you have to say.

Re: Ports.

Well, lots of reasons to do ports.

1. Do them better. There is a significant, "if they only had...", or "if they knew what we do now..." factor in play.

2. Fill in missing blanks. System A has it, system B does not.

3. Benchmark, rite of passage. Pong, for example. It's a great first game. There are some of those, as well as the learning that goes on behind the scenes. That's my current focus, working on some ports of things (for micro controllers at the moment, because I'm kind of hooked), because I can go run those things, examine code, learn stuff, verify behavior and generally have a path forward. For the hobby person, like me and others, that's a great entertainment, as well as something others may appreciate.

4. Extend them / combine / rip mix burn. Early classic gaming is where the basic dynamics are at. It's a lot like asking all the film makers to only do original works. How many people does that attract, compared to those works that are more relevant? Gaming has the same problem, and that is what makes the rights issue so ugly for this hobby and a lot of others. Another discussion, but copyright terms are too long. So, what if space invaders was done with a paddle, and the system was capable of rendering a lot more shots? Asteroids with a driving controller?

I don't think it's "lazy", and really I don't think there can be lazy, unless there is some expectation of "productive", and that's the rub.

What do you measure lazy against?(for it framed a slightly different way)

Re: Making up time.

Well, were you entertained? If the time is a waste, why not simply reconsider how you use that time? See where I'm at here? Raising the expectations for things comes at a cost that's not been talked about all that much, that's all. I think many people would see it as, more games, more of the time. But what about the authors and interested others, perhaps seeking to be authors?

One subtle bit about this hobby is that people can just sort of jump in and do stuff. That's what I did, and I had a grand time! Honestly, the pressure ramped up when I was kind of ready to just move on, and I stepped away for a while. Now, that's not dissing anybody, that was just me and where my life was at then, no worries.

But... I think having that subtle, friendly framework in place helps attract those people, who see it, and say, "maybe I could do this?", and we all get to enjoy something pretty special more often than not. Without that in play, or the bar raised, would that happen, and if so, why not just go develop for iPhone?

Put another way, would we have gotten GOSUB! with the higher expectations in play? Should we have? What about that lander game, or Solar Plexus, or many other efforts that were a lot of fun to check out, watch them build, and maybe help out with? I kind of worry about that part of it, because that's largely where new home brew talent will come from. It won't be dollars, getting a lot of fame is dangerous for both could run afoul of rights holders, so it's about the experience more than it isn't. At least I see it that way.

Re: Large. I see it differently. Right now, retro is HUGE. There are lots of little scenes in play, communities of people, not as prominent as this one, where people are doing stuff because they are having a good time of it. Outside that somewhat niche and techy zone of machines long dead, retro is seeing a fair amount of attention, and it's being watched. Gaming is kind of stale, and where there are some niches, there is considerable pressure to exploit them, particularly on emerging platforms. (ipad, phones, etc... **I'm hoping micros and custom game gear gets added to that list, because I think it's got the low expectations that old hardware does, combined with the do it yourself fun, and it's all very cheap, and modern, so there are not supply issues)

It's about prominence. There can be a fairly big home brew scene that can scale to a lot of systems lots of games and lots of people. The game changer is money and expectations. It moves from a fun scene, to something that actually is noted, and that line is kind of right here, in this discussion. Maybe it's micro-gaming, or some other thing, but I don't think it makes sense to do home brew gaming with those expectations in play, just like we don't do home brew beer or music either. Those get called micro, indie, or some other thing to differentiate it from those things that people do, at home, to entertain themselves.

And my post isn't meant as hostile at all. Just reasonable questions and concerns. I think it's more than fair to talk about this whole thing being more or less under the sight line. I'm not closed to this idea, but I am questioning, because I value this thing just how it is right now.

Edited by potatohead, Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:35 PM.

[jaybird3rd]

potatohead, on Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:19 PM, said:

And my post isn't meant as hostile at all. Just reasonable questions and concerns. I think it's more than fair to talk about this whole thing being more or less under the sight line. I'm not closed to this idea, but I am questioning, because I value this thing just how it is right now.

Understood, and you've actually raised some points I hadn't thought enough about before.

I talked about "laziness" earlier, but I think that's too strong/negative a word. In the thread I linked to, mos6507 talked about a kind of "cultural inertia" that's taken effect in homebrew gaming, to the point where "homebrewing" automatically means "porting," and that idea comes closer to what I was referring to. He also talks about how unusual and off-the-beaten-track it was to be "into" classic systems in the early days of homebrew development (the mid-to-late 1990s, when I first started following it), but that all forms of entertainment have now become pop culture recycling. Maybe that's part of what prompted me to pursue this topic: to a certain extent, I've gotten bored with how the hobby has evolved, and I'm looking for a way to find new frontiers in it.

I think another motivation was to find a solution to the problem of burnout, which has lead a number of developers to drop out of the "scene" in various ways over the years. But as you point out, people get involved in it for specific reasons, and perhaps those reasons are transient: they take on a game or some other project to learn something, and once they get what they want, there's not enough of a motivation to tackle another project.

[potatohead]

Yeah. I think that's a solid observation.

IMHO, there are some facets to this:

"the scene" if it's friendly, fun, interesting, etc... people will do stuff. IMHO, the more people that do stuff, the more likely it is that something really special gets done. The more you swing the bat, the better the chance of hitting the ball. Toward that end, open is good, relaxed is good, fun is good, helpful is good, etc... Closed is very bad, competitive is good and bad, and owing things, turf wars, etc... bad too.

Some structure is good. If it reinforces getting things done, without making it work, or demanding, I think things grow organically, with people coming and going as they get "that itch". Where it's demanding, the value goes down, because the expectation of a reward goes up. When I wrote something in bB, I did it because bB was really freaking cool! (and it is still) Getting something done, entering in the compo, and interacting with some of the really great developers here was a blast.

Some people wanted to just knock out a game, maybe score a few bucks, and move on. We've seen some of those.

Still others enjoy the art of it, or the challenge.

So there is story there too. What can the VCS do next? Honestly, that's a big one! I hang around because the really awesome thinkers and tinkerers here are going to make it do something new. Advancing that a notch is big, and one of the fruits that attract the very best kinds of people. Money really doesn't do that.

Instead of worrying about who drops out, I think it's more important to figure out who joins and why! The story is a big part of that. Perhaps it's worth it to just ask a bunch of folks why they bother? I've given my reasons.

Re: Stale.

Yeah. Happens. Seems to go in cycles. All depends on who is doing what, and what the state of that story is. Atari 8 bit computers got a bit stale, but then NRV just opened up a big door. I think that's important. Adding hardware can be important too. Harmony is a big deal. A lot of doors opened, some not yet walked through, so that story is just now being experienced. Without Harmony, it might be safe to say we've seen the upper limit of the VCS, or at least the bar would be very high after the last round of stellar home brew games.

I don't have all of that right, but there are some dynamics in play here that I see in more than one place.

Honestly, this is why I'm into the micros right now. They've got that "to the metal" feel to them, and ports make sense as the pool of games is small. On some of the chips the tech is challenging in the same way the old hardware is. Love that. Building your own system is excellent. I'm building one for a friend, and plan to finish a game on it for him. Will ship the board, battery, good old Atari Joystick, and some source code... I don't see that as a whole lot different from what happens here, just different components, same dynamics.

Wanted to add on to the "new game concepts only" comment. I think that's actually hard. If one looks at the scope of gaming, particularly the classic era, it's damn near all been done. Music is a great analogy here. There are really only 12 notes. The secret is in how it all gets put together right?

How is gaming different? Many of the "innovations" in gaming came from bugs, or system limits as much as they came from people thinking up new stuff. So then, it's gotta be possible to rip, mix, burn or that bubbling up of new ideas and features never has the relevance necessary to fuel the innovation.

that's what scares me about raising expectations on this stuff

In the micro scene, I'm actually learning a ton from a few pros, who love to do some retro, on the little chips. I've never asked, but I think they see it as a happy diversion, and or a chance to feel that spark vicariously through somebody new, who still has that gleam in their eye... I've got it, but not on some schedule. Life is short man. I gotta want to do it, and the money won't really carry the day, particularly in these times.

So, it can't just be new games only, and it can't be "lazy" or "stale". To get the new ideas, people gotta connect the relevant ideas together, build skill, and get to a place where they can afford to ask the question, "what if?"

You know, that's a very expensive question for your average hobby person! I look at the time I get on this stuff, and it's hard to just burn a ton of it with high expectations, knowing that it all might not even happen for lack of skill, time, or some other thing. Having some help at hand, or being able to get a piece done and see gratification for that helps a lot. I recently got a board in the mail, after having worked on some cool driver stuff, with a note, "what else can you make it do?" That kicked a lot of ass, and I'm hacking on the thing this weekend.

I sent a note a while back too. Picked up a great home-brew, and wrote the "show and tell story" That author pinged me back, saying it made his day knowing we had a good time. (and we did too) Actually, I've done that a few times, each time similar.

So those things matter. We know they do.

Another part of "the story" is when people do tricks! Somebody gets a extra color, or something, and it's GAME ON! as suddenly there are options not explored.

Honestly, that's the solution to burnout. It's just gotta be fun. Fun goes a long ways.

[accousticguitar]

To have digital distribution of 2600 games would be cool. I think $5 would be a good price point for people who are into classic games. That would mean less of a royalty for some people, but those people could either raise the price (at a cost of sales) or decline digital distribution altogether.

I don't really see people who are not into classic games paying $5 for a game though. In order to get the masses to pony up a $1 price point would be more in line with this generation's idea of cheap entertainment. Unfortunately, if the masses did not join in then the $1 price point probably wouldn't work out well.

[Devin]

Personally, I am glad if anyone plays my games (and any I create in the future). If anyone wants to download the ROM - as far as I see it - they are completely welcome.

The more the merrier!

[Mord]

accousticguitar, on Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:17 AM, said:

I don't really see people who are not into classic games paying $5 for a game though. In order to get the masses to pony up a $1 price point would be more in line with this generation's idea of cheap entertainment. Unfortunately, if the masses did not join in then the $1 price point probably wouldn't work out well.

I don't think it would change the current scene as it exists now very much. Most of us are use to getting the rom for free - yet we spend 20+ (in some cases much more +) to get a copy of the physical cart regardless.

I wonder how things would turn out if a few homebrewers got together and tried to pull off a variation of the Humble Bundle method. Certainly you wouldn't expect to make $100,000+ each like what seems to happen in the Humble Bundle but then if each dev made $1,000 you'd already be at the limit of what most physical distributions seem to net for royalties.

You'd certainly need to get it somehow announced on slashdot tho to expect having a chance of a million eyes at least looking at the offer. And with that many eyes looking at it, I wouldn't recommend having unlicensed ports in the bundle.

And where this would just be digital distribution, you'd have the ability to run a physical distribution as well - because we already know a lot of us here want physical carts regardless.