109 replies to this topic

[sh3-rg]

Money. Politics. DRM. Income. Piracy. Encryption. Drama.

Where's the fun?

The only digital distribution needed for a game is a [DOWNLOAD GAME] button.

[jaybird3rd]

sh3-rg, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 4:47 PM, said:

Money. Politics. DRM. Income. Piracy. Encryption. Drama.

Where's the fun?

The only digital distribution needed for a game is a [DOWNLOAD GAME] button.

<Sigh>

I have no wish to be rude, but did you even read what I wrote? How many times do I have to say that I'm not primarily concerned about money, and that I'm not talking about DRM???

[sh3-rg]

jaybird3rd, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 4:54 PM, said:

sh3-rg, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 4:47 PM, said:

Money. Politics. DRM. Income. Piracy. Encryption. Drama.

Where's the fun?

The only digital distribution needed for a game is a [DOWNLOAD GAME] button.

<Sigh>

I have no wish to be rude, but did you even read what I wrote? How many times do I have to say that I'm not primarily concerned about money, and that I'm not talking about DRM???

That wasn't aimed at you specifically, just saying what I think is the simplest way to get games out digitally & having fun with it. It's worked for my groups for 15 years or so.

All the DRM semantics stuff... tl;dr.

[jaybird3rd]

sh3-rg, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:15 PM, said:

All the DRM semantics stuff... tl;dr.

jaybird3rd, on Wed Aug 4, 2010 3:47 PM, said:

DRM is a narrower concept than copy protection. Copy protection is concerned only with preventing the creation of unauthorized copies of content, but DRM adds restrictions on the way even authorized copies can be used: limiting them to particular devices, disabling them after a certain period of time, and so forth. One can debate about where copy protection ends and DRM begins, but it would be pointless in this context because I'm not talking about either. I wasn't familiar with the term "watermarking," or at least with its use when applied to digital content, but it sounds like a much closer match for what I'm talking about.

So, in ascending order:

Nothing --> Watermarking --> Copy Protection --> DRM

I realize that some people define these terms differently, but I'm trying to frame the argument in a constructive way, and these are the definitions that I shall use.

There. Is that really too long for you?

[sh3-rg]

jaybird3rd, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:19 PM, said:

sh3-rg, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:15 PM, said:

All the DRM semantics stuff... tl;dr.

jaybird3rd, on Wed Aug 4, 2010 3:47 PM, said:

DRM is a narrower concept than copy protection. Copy protection is concerned only with preventing the creation of unauthorized copies of content, but DRM adds restrictions on the way even authorized copies can be used: limiting them to particular devices, disabling them after a certain period of time, and so forth. One can debate about where copy protection ends and DRM begins, but it would be pointless in this context because I'm not talking about either. I wasn't familiar with the term "watermarking," or at least with its use when applied to digital content, but it sounds like a much closer match for what I'm talking about.

So, in ascending order:

Nothing --> Watermarking --> Copy Protection --> DRM

I realize that some people define these terms differently, but I'm trying to frame the argument in a constructive way, and these are the definitions that I shall use.

Is that really too long for you?

Like I said, it's not really an issue. I'm not interested in what DRM means to you or anyone else. My point is that you leave all the drama & worries behind if you just put your stuff out there & forget about it & go on to the next one.

[jaybird3rd]

sh3-rg, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:21 PM, said:

Like I said, it's not really an issue. I'm not interested in what DRM means to you or anyone else. My point is that you leave all the drama & worries behind if you just put your stuff out there & forget about it & go on to the next one.

But if a developer puts all his stuff out there for free without any way to protect it from piracy, and without any form of compensation, what's to motivate him to continue making games? What's to prevent somebody else from taking advantage of his work, either giving it away for free or making money on it behind his back? What's to prevent the next Opcode Games meltdown, which is going on in the ColecoVision forum even as I write this? How are we to attract new developers, when all they can expect is to have their stuff taken while they get little or nothing back for their efforts?

My purpose here is to find a solution to the growing pains that homebrew gaming is experiencing, and to find a way to keep it healthy and to make it grow even as it reconciles itself to the new challenges of digital distribution. If we're going to do that, we need to think in deeper ways about what motivates developers, and what forms of input from the community keep them enthusiastic and excited about their work. Then, we need to think of ways of maximizing those inputs and of protecting them from the various threats that digital distribution might pose if it is done incorrectly.

I haven't written long posts about all this merely for the sake of writing long posts. In thinking through these things, it's necessary to introspect a little bit, to untangle some complicated issues, and to avoid conflating things that need to be kept separate. I don't know how to do those topics justice in a postage-stamp-sized treatment.

If you want things to continue as they are without even putting forth the effort to understand what drives people to do the work they do, and why they sometimes burn out, feel free. I don't think it can go on forever, though, without more wipeouts like we're seeing now with Opcode Games.

[sh3-rg]

jaybird3rd, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:36 PM, said:

But if a developer puts all his stuff out there for free without any way to protect it from piracy, and without any form of compensation, what's to motivate him to continue making games?

We're talking bedroom game making here, right? The motivation comes from the fun of doing it & the feedback from the people who play it.

jaybird3rd, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:36 PM, said:

What's to prevent somebody else from taking advantage of his work, either giving it away for free or making money on it behind his back?

That [DOWNLOAD GAME] button I mentioned earlier

jaybird3rd, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:36 PM, said:

How are we to attract new developers, when all they can expect is to have their stuff taken while they get little or nothing back for their efforts?

Having stuff taken is motivation for making it, second only to the fun of actually making it. New developers might want to consider a current platform rather than an obsolete one if getting something back for their efforts is there motivation.

jaybird3rd, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:36 PM, said:

My purpose here is to find a solution to the growing pains that homebrew gaming is experiencing, and to find a way to keep it healthy and to make it grow even as it reconciles itself to the new challenges of digital distribution. If we're going to do that, we need to think in deeper ways about what motivates developers, and what forms of input from the community keep them enthusiastic and excited about their work.

OK, I can see where you're coming from I suppose. Maybe a poll asking bedroom game programmers what motivates them would be a good place to start rather than assuming it is financial or otherwise.

jaybird3rd, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:36 PM, said:

I haven't written long posts about all this merely for the sake of writing long posts. In thinking through these things, it's necessary to introspect a little bit, to untangle some complicated issues, and to avoid conflating things that need to be kept separate. I don't know how to do those topics justice in a postage-stamp-sized treatment.

That's fair enough. My posts were just to point out that you can avoid all the drama & troubles if you simply put your stuff out there. All the extra headaches, planning & time invested in keeping your stuff safe & protected from these undesirables is then free to spend making games or other fun stuff like playing other people's games or drinking beer or...

[Greg2600]

batari, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 12:43 AM, said:

The distinction here is clear to me. Modern homebrewers never did this for money - it's a labor of love, and we may have put many months and hundreds of hours of effort creating a game. The old games we all download were not labors of love, they were created by paid (and sometimes highly paid) programmers. If you ask any programmer today if they care that someone is downloading and making carts of some game they made for a company 25-30 years ago in exchange for a paycheck, I doubt any would care. However, if told me someone was making poor quality carts of a game I made a year ago in my spare time, I would definitely care.

You're taking me out of context, I said it was a labor of love prior to that paragraph. I also agree no one should be making and selling carts without permission. I'm only talking about giving out the rom to use on emulators or flash carts, even just demo versions. If a home brewer wants to do carts-only, I'm fine with that. I'm more unhappy with those who will only sell copies of an unreleased classic game, which they did not create and have no rights to sell physical copies. Even those who port a game between like systems, or hack a game, which is basically the same thing. That's a whole different argument of course.

I'd like to buy more homebrew games, but I don't have the space. If they were available digitally, without the hardware costs, I'd be very interested. Every one of the homebrews/hacks/unreleased that I own a cartridge of, the rom is freely distributed (at least a playable demo).

Edited by Greg2600, Thu Aug 5, 2010 6:04 PM.

[jaybird3rd]

sh3-rg, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:55 PM, said:

That's fair enough. My posts were just to point out that you can avoid all the drama & troubles if you simply put your stuff out there. All the extra headaches, planning & time invested in keeping your stuff safe & protected from these undesirables is then free to spend making games or other fun stuff like playing other people's games or drinking beer or...

I understand. What interests me about this whole idea is that there are ways of adequately protecting homebrew games that won't add lots of extra time and work, and that won't take away from the fun, for the developers or for the players. This thread was really meant to be a place to brainstorm about them. I can think of a few ideas of my own, and I'll probably develop them further later, but I wanted to learn what other people had to say about it first.

I got into the subject of developer motivation mainly in response to some of the misunderstandings that I saw. Perhaps a separate thread would be a better place to explore that subject further; after all, it's really necessary to understand that before we can even talk about what distribution and protection would work best for the finished product.

[potatohead]

One way to protect these things is to be a good community.

That should be enough. It was for a long time. Maybe growth is bad, and perhaps it will be again.

[the.golden.ax]

sh3-rg, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 4:47 PM, said:

Money. Politics. DRM. Income. Piracy. Encryption. Drama.

Where's the fun?

The only digital distribution needed for a game is a [DOWNLOAD GAME] button.

Isn't that a KMFDM song?


(link not for minors)

[thegoldenband]

I'm not (much of) a programmer, but I am a musician, so I have some sense of what it's like to have your creative work made available by others in digital form, with or without consent. In fact it's happened to me at least three times, twice without prior consent.

I've also participated in other forums where copyrighted material (like bootleg recordings of live concerts) was made available by private individuals who didn't own the copyright to those materials, and then flipped out when someone reused their material without their approval and/or proper credit.

IMHO, it's a fantasy to think that you can retain complete control once your stuff is "out there", especially in the case of non-original homebrew ports where there's no legal standing to begin with. If that's crucially important to someone -- if they have that kind of highly control-oriented personality -- they should reconsider their involvement in the hobby/business, because things aren't going to get any better and it's just going to lead to ulcers all around.

Having said that, I have no problem with watermarking. And I would love to see more digital distribution, especially if it uses a "pay what you can" model. I think the $10 range would be excessive given the short half-life of the average VCS game, but I would happily contribute something. It might seem insulting to receive only a dollar or two for one's hard work, but it sure worked out for the Humble Indie Bundle people -- I bought the bundle using the leftover balance on a gift card, which wasn't much but, because of the convenience factor, swayed me to purchase the games despite having no good way to play them at the time (computer issues). A 5-pack of some of the best homebrews might sell surprisingly well.

As for carts, I've always thought the best answer was pre-ordering, which basically guarantees your revenue stream. Figure out how many pre-orders you need/want to take, fill the orders, make a second run of carts if demand is high...and then release the final ROM in some format (i.e. with or without bells and whistles that are on the cart version). Any other approach, like depending on obscure bankswitching formats or special hardware, will eventually be defeated, so why not release the ROM on one's own terms, whether it's for free or via inexpensive digital download?

Edited by thegoldenband, Fri Aug 6, 2010 3:45 PM.

[e1will]

This thread (and the other one) have been interesting to follow. Now I'm really curious to see if there's a market for digitally distributed homebrews, so I'm going to try it.

I put together a $15 "ROM pack" zip file containing the ROM of my game, its manual, and some extras, like a monochrome version of the game and a behind-the-scenes essay on the development with some screenshots of the early prototype versions. And if you buy the cartridge (from Al) I'll toss in the ROM pack for free, so hopefully it won't discourage people from getting the cartridge.

This is the first time I've done something like this, so I'll be very curious to see if there are any takers.

--Will

[akator]

I don't think there is an idea solution, however I like youki's idea.

youki, on Tue Aug 3, 2010 6:54 AM, said:

The solution would be may be to "sponsorize" the development before it actually starts.

Let imagine , AtariAge create a poll to know what user would like to have as homebrew.

Then, AtariAge ask for donation to contribute to the development. when an certain amount (to define) of money is reached . A developper what is interrest in doing a specific game in the sponsored project list , take the project (not the money yet).

Once the project is completed. AtariAge give the money to the developper. And the Rom files is available for Free. and of course some packaged version can be done also in the traditionnal way.

I think , it could work.

Homebrew developper could also propose idea for project to be sponsorised of course.

If asked, I would be willing to contribute for a game's development if the ROM was available later. As someone who loves playing on the original hardware, after the game was released I would also be willing to purchase a physical copy. It could be a win-win situation...

[potatohead]

e1will, on Fri Aug 6, 2010 3:53 PM, said:

This thread (and the other one) have been interesting to follow. Now I'm really curious to see if there's a market for digitally distributed homebrews, so I'm going to try it.

I put together a $15 "ROM pack" zip file containing the ROM of my game, its manual, and some extras, like a monochrome version of the game and a behind-the-scenes essay on the development with some screenshots of the early prototype versions. And if you buy the cartridge (from Al) I'll toss in the ROM pack for free, so hopefully it won't discourage people from getting the cartridge.

This is the first time I've done something like this, so I'll be very curious to see if there are any takers.

--Will

Nice value add there!! Well done.

[jaybird3rd]

e1will, on Fri Aug 6, 2010 3:53 PM, said:

This thread (and the other one) have been interesting to follow. Now I'm really curious to see if there's a market for digitally distributed homebrews, so I'm going to try it.

I put together a $15 "ROM pack" zip file containing the ROM of my game, its manual, and some extras, like a monochrome version of the game and a behind-the-scenes essay on the development with some screenshots of the early prototype versions. And if you buy the cartridge (from Al) I'll toss in the ROM pack for free, so hopefully it won't discourage people from getting the cartridge.

This is the first time I've done something like this, so I'll be very curious to see if there are any takers.

--Will

Thank you! You should do whatever you can to make people aware that you're offering this option, either in a new thread or in a thread you've already started about your game. I think people will like it, particularly with the nice "extras" you've included. I know I'll be buying a copy from you within the next week.

[newcoleco]

e1will, on Fri Aug 6, 2010 3:53 PM, said:

This thread (and the other one) have been interesting to follow. Now I'm really curious to see if there's a market for digitally distributed homebrews, so I'm going to try it.

Well, tell us if anyone do get the rom pack solution... I'm very curious.

[Shawn Jefferson]

I think this is being seriously "over-thought". A digital distribution site should be created now and the authors given the chance to use it. There is a market for digital copies of the games, and those authors that want to distribute their games in that way can, those that don't, won't.

A few more thoughts:

1. Donations don't work. It's not really a donation either if you are getting something for it. Just charge an acceptable rate for your digitial copy (let the author chose the rate, and the market will quickly show the "proper" rate.) Authors that want to give their stuff away could put a price of $0 on it, but use the same distribution channel.

2. DRM/Watermarking/Serializing the digital copies is going to be a waste of time, IMO. If an author is that worried about their digital copy being misused, maybe digital copies aren't for them. Also, your distribution system will have to take into account many different platforms, and standardize the location and method of the watermark/serial and the checksumming of that for each platform. Seriously though, is this something that is really needed in a hobby? Authors that want this can either do it themselves or opt out of the digital distribution system, imo.

3. Piracy... it's probably still going to happen. Get over it. Do what you can, rely on the goodwill of the majority of the community and try to enjoy doing stuff for reasons other than the limited amount of money you will get out of this hobby.

Edited by Shawn Jefferson, Fri Aug 6, 2010 8:33 PM.

[Albert]

Shawn Jefferson, on Fri Aug 6, 2010 8:32 PM, said:

I think this is being seriously "over-thought". A digital distribution site should be created now and the authors given the chance to use it. There is a market for digital copies of the games, and those authors that want to distribute their games in that way can, those that don't, won't.

I can trivially add digital downloads to the AtariAge Store.

I'm personally very much against any DRM-schemes that restrict the end user in some way. They have bitten me in the ass before and I can't stress strongly enough my disdain for them. I will not be involved in any scheme that sells DRM-infested software. On the other hand, I do not have a problem with watermarking or building copy protection into cartridges. This, of course, can always be defeated but it will slow down the casual "copier".

However, most homebrew games are distributed in binary forms for free even when cartridges are offered for sale. Using any kind of DRM or copy protection or anything else is pretty pointless when people can download the binaries with the authors' blessings for free. For authors who do not distribute their binaries, you'll not easily solve the problem of preventing the binary from getting out there, so I'd instead focus on giving people an option to pay for a binary version if they don't want a physical cartridge.

I've given this thought in the past but haven't acted upon it. Again, I could easily setup digital downloads in the AtariAge Store, which already supports this capability.

..Al

[potatohead]

I would prefer that, given how well the store has operated in the past.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

jaybird3rd, on Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:36 PM, said:

But if a developer puts all his stuff out there for free without any way to protect it from piracy, and without any form of compensation, what's to motivate him to continue making games?

For me:
1. The fun of MAKING the game.
2. The feedback of the people who code games too.
3. The feedback of the people playing it (the more honest, the better!).
...
10. The number of copies being sold.
...
...
...
100. The money.

In that order.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Albert, on Fri Aug 6, 2010 8:38 PM, said:

I've given this thought in the past but haven't acted upon it. Again, I could easily setup digital downloads in the AtariAge Store, which already supports this capability.

What are you waiting for?

[HammR25]

As someone who owns a CC2 and the 128 in 1 cart for the 5200 I don't typically like to buy homebrew games that are of limited run but have the final binary released to the public because me buying a physical cartridge takes it out of the hands of someone who can't play it on real hardware any other way. I wouldn't mind giving the developers some money myself regardless of whether I buy a physical cart or not.

Ken Siders gave out a final rom to CC2 purchasers of Beef Drop if they asked for it for the initial run. I sent him a PM asking if he was going to do that again for B*nQ and never got a response so I just assumed he didn't care for what happened with the Beef Drop rom.

[kenfused]

HammR25, on Sat Aug 7, 2010 6:11 AM, said:

As someone who owns a CC2 and the 128 in 1 cart for the 5200 I don't typically like to buy homebrew games that are of limited run but have the final binary released to the public because me buying a physical cartridge takes it out of the hands of someone who can't play it on real hardware any other way. I wouldn't mind giving the developers some money myself regardless of whether I buy a physical cart or not.

Ken Siders gave out a final rom to CC2 purchasers of Beef Drop if they asked for it for the initial run. I sent him a PM asking if he was going to do that again for B*nQ and never got a response so I just assumed he didn't care for what happened with the Beef Drop rom.

If anyone owns a b*nQ cartridge or Beef Drop VE and wants a binary copy for their CC2, PM me a picture of their cart posed with their pet, themselves, their lunch, their car, their girlfriend, or anything creative and I'll send a copy of the binary.

I have considered selling binaries separate for use on CC2s or emulators, but then I would probably want to change the AtariAge intros, and would have to write up a mini-manual for each since the AA manual is not my work (or at least very little of it is).

[e1will]

Albert, on Fri Aug 6, 2010 8:38 PM, said:

I can trivially add digital downloads to the AtariAge Store.

Even better! I'll PM you the Duck Attack! ROM pack once I'm done adding to it (I keep thinking of new things to add, like a game world map.)

The AA store would be the perfect place for this sort of thing.

--Will