22 replies to this topic

[rxd]

I was reading about the ps3 move because I'm interested in it for light gun games. I've been very disappointed in the way the Wii remote functions as a light gun. Then I read that Sony is patching several games to work with the move and I started wondering why Wii games haven't been patched to work with the Wii motion plus. Seems kind of strange to me that this hasn't been done more, or am I wrong about this? I don't have the Wii motion plus but from what I hear it's much more accurate, which is my gripe with Wii light gun games now. Just wondering why if there is a fix for this accuracy issue in the Wii motion plus it hasn't been used...

[Emehr]

Some people, like me, are against patching for video game systems and applaud Nintendo for not going down this dark path. If anything, they should just recode, reprint, and repackage such games as WM+ compatible.

[rxd]

Emehr, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:49 PM, said:

Some people, like me, are against patching for video game systems and applaud Nintendo for not going down this dark path. If anything, they should just recode, reprint, and repackage such games as WM+ compatible.

Really?!? I'm not talking about adding motion to games that don't have it, I'm talking about adding Wii motion plus support in order to get much greater accuracy. I don't see why anyone would be against this at all.

[cool110]

The reason their are no patches is simply it's impossible with the current hardware design. when you play a game everything (even the home menu) runs off the disk.

Quote

http://wiibrew.org/wiki/IOS
The "Home" menu you see when you press the Home button is part of the game, it is not provided by the running IOS or the System Menu. To put it simply, the game does not run "on top of" the system menu. When a game is launched the system menu is closed and the game is started, and when the game calls to return to the system menu, the game closes and the system menu is restarted.

Edited by cool110, Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:33 PM.

[Emehr]

rxd, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:13 PM, said:

Emehr, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:49 PM, said:

Some people, like me, are against patching for video game systems and applaud Nintendo for not going down this dark path. If anything, they should just recode, reprint, and repackage such games as WM+ compatible.

Really?!? I'm not talking about adding motion to games that don't have it, I'm talking about adding Wii motion plus support in order to get much greater accuracy. I don't see why anyone would be against this at all.

I'm not talking about adding motion to games that don't have it either. I'm not against them adding WM+ support to games and re-releasing them with new packaging that says "Now with WM+ suppport" or something. What I'm against is patching already-existing games whether it's to fix a bug or to add features.

[rxd]

Emehr, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:45 PM, said:

rxd, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:13 PM, said:

Emehr, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:49 PM, said:

Some people, like me, are against patching for video game systems and applaud Nintendo for not going down this dark path. If anything, they should just recode, reprint, and repackage such games as WM+ compatible.

Really?!? I'm not talking about adding motion to games that don't have it, I'm talking about adding Wii motion plus support in order to get much greater accuracy. I don't see why anyone would be against this at all.

I'm not talking about adding motion to games that don't have it either. I'm not against them adding WM+ support to games and re-releasing them with new packaging that says "Now with WM+ suppport" or something. What I'm against is patching already-existing games whether it's to fix a bug or to add features.

It's better to re-buy the games? I don't get it. And don't patch bugs, leave them in? Obviously we'll never agree on this stuff...

Edited by rxd, Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:19 PM.

[Lord Helmet]

Emehr, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:49 PM, said:

Some people, like me, are against patching for video game systems and applaud Nintendo for not going down this dark path. If anything, they should just recode, reprint, and repackage such games as WM+ compatible.

What's wrong with patching games?

[rxd]

Buy New and Improved Super Mario Brothers Wii!

Now with 10% less bugs...

Edited by rxd, Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:20 PM.

[rxd]

cool110, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:32 PM, said:

The reason their are no patches is simply it's impossible with the current hardware design. when you play a game everything (even the home menu) runs off the disk.

Quote

http://wiibrew.org/wiki/IOS
The "Home" menu you see when you press the Home button is part of the game, it is not provided by the running IOS or the System Menu. To put it simply, the game does not run "on top of" the system menu. When a game is launched the system menu is closed and the game is started, and when the game calls to return to the system menu, the game closes and the system menu is restarted.

Well there you go. This at least makes sense. If it can't be done then I guess that's why it isn't being done...

[Emehr]

rxd, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:15 PM, said:

Emehr, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:45 PM, said:

What I'm against is patching already-existing games whether it's to fix a bug or to add features.

It's better to re-buy the games? I don't get it. And don't patch bugs, leave them in? Obviously we'll never agree on this stuff...

My point is, bugs shouldn't be there in the first place. That's what QC is for. All patching does is make developers more complacent. On PCs that have any number of hardware configurations, having patches is understandable. On a video game console with hardware that essentially doesn't change, having bugs is inexcusable.

Patches may seem splendid and convenient now but I'm interested in the preservation of this hobby and in ten years when I buy an old game that doesn't work because the servers dishing out "patches" no longer exist or don't support old games, well, that's when the whole idea blows up in our faces.

As far as re-buying games, don't we do that already with the endless remakes, virtual consoles, and sequels that aren't much different from the originals?

[RevEng]

cool110, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:32 PM, said:

The reason their are no patches is simply it's impossible with the current hardware design. when you play a game everything (even the home menu) runs off the disk.

Quote

http://wiibrew.org/wiki/IOS
The "Home" menu you see when you press the Home button is part of the game, it is not provided by the running IOS or the System Menu. To put it simply, the game does not run "on top of" the system menu. When a game is launched the system menu is closed and the game is started, and when the game calls to return to the system menu, the game closes and the system menu is restarted.

It's not impossible for that reason. The game still uses an IOS held on the nand for library functions - just not the same one the system menu uses. If a new game needs a new IOS, it gets delivered in an update to the system before the game will play.

If it modifying the IOS a game uses was impossible, there wouldn't be USB loaders. They use a patched IOS that replaces the disc sector reading routines with their own routines.

However, it is impractical to patch games via an IOS update. To change an IOS, Nintendo would need to QA test all of the games that use that IOS, including 3rd party games.

We're also unlikely to see patches for Wiimotion plus for existing games because it's not a simple matter - the old wiimote motion sensing API doesn't have the same resolution/info as the new wiimotion plus API. Each game would need to be custom patched to use the new API and do something sensible with it.

That kind of rework isn't going to fund itself, and there's no profit motive to do it.

Edited by RevEng, Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:19 PM.

[KrazyKaiju]

Nintendo can't patch 'Other M' to fix the door bug for the same reason. I heard that they're actually asking people to send in their game saves on an SD card for Nintendo to fix. At least Nintendo Japan is swapping discs for bug fixed V2s. Hopefully they'll do the same for NA eventually.

[rxd]

KrazyKaiju, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:24 PM, said:

Nintendo can't patch 'Other M' to fix the door bug for the same reason. I heard that they're actually asking people to send in their game saves on an SD card for Nintendo to fix. At least Nintendo Japan is swapping discs for bug fixed V2s. Hopefully they'll do the same for NA eventually.

I didn't hear about that bug. That's hilarious. Funny it never occurred to me that there's no way for wii games to be patched

[Atariboy]

How would it help lightgun style games anyways?

They just rely on the sensor bar and the sensor at the end of the Wiimote. I wasn't aware that Motion Plus enhanced that any.

I thought Motion Plus just made the accelrometers or whatever they're called more accurate and sensitive to motion? Not sure how that would improve a lightgun shooter like House of the Dead. They just utilize the sensor system, not the motion components like a game like Wii Sports relies on.

Edited by Atariboy, Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:36 PM.

[rxd]

Atariboy, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:34 PM, said:

How would it help lightgun style games anyways?

They just rely on the sensor bar and the sensor at the end of the Wiimote. I wasn't aware that Motion Plus enhanced that any.

I thought Motion Plus just made the accelrometers or whatever they're called more accurate and sensitive to motion? Not sure how that would improve a lightgun shooter like House of the Dead. They just utilize the sensor system, not the motion components like a game like Wii Sports relies on.

While I don't have a Wii motion plus from everything I've read about it it makes the controller much more accurate, almost as accurate as the PS3 Move. Is it true or is it bullshit? I really don't know. I was just hoping it would make light gun games more accurate. Well, there's no point anyway now....

[Atariboy]

It does make motion much more accurate, such as using the Wiimote to swing in a baseball game or to control Link's sword.

But in a lightgun style of game, the accelerometer that detects motion in the three different axis is inactive. The optical sensor is what is being utilized on the Wiimote which detects the infared LEDs on the sensor bar in order to use the Wiimote to move a cursor around the screen (Such as the targeting reticle in a game like House of the Dead).

The accelerometers are inactive in lightgun style games and I think that's the capability Motion Plus enhances, not the pointer capabilities of the Wiimote that games like House of the Dead 2/3 rely upon?

Edited by Atariboy, Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:13 AM.

[Mendon]

Emehr, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:38 PM, said:

My point is, bugs shouldn't be there in the first place. That's what QC is for. All patching does is make developers more complacent. On PCs that have any number of hardware configurations, having patches is understandable. On a video game console with hardware that essentially doesn't change, having bugs is inexcusable.

Patches may seem splendid and convenient now but I'm interested in the preservation of this hobby and in ten years when I buy an old game that doesn't work because the servers dishing out "patches" no longer exist or don't support old games, well, that's when the whole idea blows up in our faces.

As far as re-buying games, don't we do that already with the endless remakes, virtual consoles, and sequels that aren't much different from the originals?

I hear what you are saying, Emehr, and agree with the principle of QC you express.

But I also think you would need to include eliminating all firmware updates to achieve this goal. Why? Because there have been instances where firmware updates have caused game glitches in already released games and the software developers have had to issue patches to specific titles to address these glitches.

As long as systems and/or games can be changed via an internet download.... whether a patch or DLC or update..... there are likely going to be problems. Sort of the old axiom "Fix one leak in a pipe and another will pop up".

As for playing these games when no servers exist...... its going to be something to witness when millions of gamers discover that there are campaign modes in Halo and Modern Warfare


Mendon

Edited by Mendon, Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:27 AM.

[Lord Helmet]

rxd, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:53 PM, said:

Atariboy, on Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:34 PM, said:

How would it help lightgun style games anyways?

They just rely on the sensor bar and the sensor at the end of the Wiimote. I wasn't aware that Motion Plus enhanced that any.

I thought Motion Plus just made the accelrometers or whatever they're called more accurate and sensitive to motion? Not sure how that would improve a lightgun shooter like House of the Dead. They just utilize the sensor system, not the motion components like a game like Wii Sports relies on.

While I don't have a Wii motion plus from everything I've read about it it makes the controller much more accurate, almost as accurate as the PS3 Move. Is it true or is it bullshit? I really don't know. I was just hoping it would make light gun games more accurate. Well, there's no point anyway now....

It makes the wiimote a TON more accurate, but it doesn't affect the light sensor.

[Video]

Because Nintendo wants to make money, and there is no money in patches. I guess they could charge for patches, but then imagine all the shitting people would do over that.

Yeah, not happening. Besides, nobody knew the games were "busted" until Nintendo released the motion+ device anyways, did they? At least, I don't recall anyone saying "god damn, this games controls suck, (out side of "it could have worked with traditional controls ) They should have more precision" just a thought

[selgus]

Actually Nintendo has a policy about not allowing patching of game applications. The reason they give to developers is because of security reasons. We wanted to use patching in one of our Wii titles, to allow incremental feature addition via an online connection, but Nintendo wouldn't allows us to do so.

Each year at the developers conference I have this same discussion with the execs at Nintendo, and they won't budge.
--Selgus

[Tr3vor]

When was the last time Nintendo patched anything, besides the Wii OS?

[Atariboy]

selgus, on Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:46 PM, said:

Actually Nintendo has a policy about not allowing patching of game applications. The reason they give to developers is because of security reasons. We wanted to use patching in one of our Wii titles, to allow incremental feature addition via an online connection, but Nintendo wouldn't allows us to do so.

Each year at the developers conference I have this same discussion with the execs at Nintendo, and they won't budge.
--Selgus

Does it only apply to retail titles? There are some WiiWare titles that are doing "incremental feature addition" through a online connection, such as the Mega Man titles.

Or are you technically just unlocking something already present in the original download when you purchase DLC in a game like Mega Man 9?

[Mendon]

selgus, on Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:46 PM, said:

Actually Nintendo has a policy about not allowing patching of game applications. The reason they give to developers is because of security reasons. We wanted to use patching in one of our Wii titles, to allow incremental feature addition via an online connection, but Nintendo wouldn't allows us to do so.

Each year at the developers conference I have this same discussion with the execs at Nintendo, and they won't budge.
--Selgus

Hmmm.... sort of confusing. High Voltage Software, developers of The Conduit and Conduit 2, have stated on several occasions that Conduit 2 will support game patching. The quickest source I could find of this is Wikipedia: "It has been confirmed that Conduit 2 will be supporting patching to allow fixes to bugs and glitches in its online multiplayer."

Maybe Nintendo has changed their policy or maybe there is a difference between patching the main gameplay portion and patching the online portion?


Mendon