22 replies to this topic

[Nuclear Pacman]

There's a few games that really cause me to keep hooking my Jag up on a regular basis, one of them is Pinball Fantasies. I really like video pinball on all consoles, and as for classic carts go, PF is my favorite. The Williams Collection for the X360 is an awesome game, but that is really a jump in technology and an entirely new era which I don't think is fair to judge against the classics.

I'm not that big of a fan of Ruiner Pinball, but I'm glad to own it and do occasionally play the Ruiner table. I think that PF is a far superior cartridge for a variety of reasons. The most obvious differences between the two games are of course that PF has 4 different tables, compared to RP having 2 oversized tables. Also, in terms of realism, I don't think anyone would argue that PF delivers the a better pinball simulation experience, whereas RP takes advantage of it's 'video' medium by having completely unrealistic physics and some baffling table goals.

I'm pretty sure I've seen before some people claim that the two oversized Ruiner tables are equal to having 4 separate normal size tables. Well, not quite, because you aren't getting 4 different themes in Ruiner, and I don't think you really have equal access to the extended parts of the big Ruiner tables, as you clearly spend more time in the game on a certain section, especially Ruiner itself. But to be fair, I only really enjoy 2 of the tables in Pinball Fantasies, which are Party Land and Stones n Bones. Billion Dollar Game Show and the Racing one I find not very enjoyable probably because I'm not very good at accomplishing the goals which I find to be almost impossible, especially in BDGS.

What is great about Pinball Fantasies to me is that these tables would make great tables as real pinball machines. Party Land and SnB, both have well designed playfields, that have a wonderful use of colors, with visual clarity that makes the goals of these tables easy to understand and follow, even without looking at the instructions, the mark of a good pinball. The HUD is also very intuitive and keeps you well informed of your progress. I love being told how many loops I need to finish MAD, and how many Screams I need for extra ball etc... These tables really remind me of those good Williams pinballs of the 80's and 90's.

Ruiner Pinball on the other hand, would not be possible as a real pinball. To me, that takes away from the attraction of the game. But, I can see a clear argument that this is what could make a video pinball good. However, I don't think Ruiner Pinball is a good case for unrealistic pins. It's really just difficult to look at it. The color palette is awful on Tower, with maybe 16 colors on screen, everything seems either green, purple and dark purple. The Ruiner table has more colors, but they aren't used very well, and in all honesty, it really reminds me of the awful color scheme in Pinball Jam for the Lynx.

Visuals aside, then you have to deal with the actual gameplay in RP. Welcome to the pinball with shots that are only achieved by complete luck. In Tower, on the middle section I think, that lizard mouth on the right side, you can only hope the ball bounces in there by complete accident, and this is an attainable goal at some point. There's a few more luck shots between both tables that you can't deliberately achieve, which is just bad game design. Then you have the ramps that actually accelerate the pinball going UP the table. OK, I can actually suspend disbelief due to the 'video' nature of the game. Again though these ramps, and all ramps in both tables are really quite difficult to hit at all. The Ruiner table itself can be quite fun, but can be really frustrating as you try to advance Defcon by hitting the right ramp on the left table (I know confusing right? left?). I'm not feeling any love for the HUD on RP either, I mean yeah it will tell you what to hit to advance Defcon but I'm still not sure what the Missile Ramp is, or the Missile Eject for that matter. Everything is a freaking missile in this game, even the flippers (which is a clever btw).

The tables are so big on RP that its tough to keep track of where everything is, and on Ruiner, the worst thing that happens is multiball, which is always the best part of any good pinball machine. Multiball in Ruiner is a freaking nightmare, the screen zooms WAY out so that you can see both sides of the table, making everything super tiny and the game starts to suffer from some pretty bad delay with the flippers. I don't know whether to call it slowdown or what, but the game runs like crap in multiball. All you can do is wildly hit the flippers until its over with. Good pinball players can manage multiball just as well as a single pinball, it's not really possible in Ruiner Pinball, whereas the normal tables in PF allow for a normal management of multiball, just like the real thing.

Another key component of pinballs I just thought of right now, is advancing your bonus multiplier. The rollovers in PF are normal 3-4 rollovers to lite to advance X. In Ruiner, how do you feel about 6 or 7 rollovers to advance the multiplier? That's outrageous! Pinball Fantasies just wins in every category that I can think of. I do like the Nuclear War theme of Ruiner, but it wasn't executed well. I mean, it's unclear what you have to do at any given point, and you're mostly fighting bombs, tanks and planes instead of hitting the ramps and drop targets you need to be getting. Tower suffers from this too, there's always some crap in your way while your lining up your ramp shot that you desperately need.

I just wanted to discuss these two games a bit.

[the.golden.ax]

Simply put, Ruiner is cooler but next to unplayable compared to PF. My eyes won't focus when trying to play Ruiner. PF can be enjoyed for hours on end.

AX

[JagChris]

Ruiner is technologically more advanced an achievement on the Jag and as you said is 'video pinball' with unrealistic stuff going on that wouldnt happen on a real table. Also the table design is arguably not as good as Pinball Fantasies. And Pinball Fantasies is a Pinball Simulator.

[Austin]

Ruiner lacks any kind of real polish. Would have been nice if it had more tables, slightly better physics, as well as a higher color count and smoother scrolling tables and visuals. It's not not bad for what can be easily obtained at a very low price these days (brand-new), but probably not too much more.

[Stone]

I like Ruiner much better than PF.

But then I'm rubbish at 'real' pinball

Stone

[save2600]

As others have mentioned - Ruiner needed to be tweaked graphically and in the physics dept. As it is, it's barely a "good" fantasy pin game whereas PF is definitely more playable and pretty to look at IMO.

With as good as PF is though, it would have been nice to see:

a) more of the playfield at once. The DMD (dot matrix display) simulation up top is waaaaaay too large and unnecessary. Could have been shrunk by several lines or been ghosted altogether, kind of like a HUD control.

b) multi-ball

c) control of the camera. Ability to zoom out, or zoom close in relative to the aspect ratio for a 3D effect.

...by the time 21st Century got around to addressing these issues, the PF layout and designs left a lot to be desired IMO. Still, would have been nice to see something like Pinball Mania come out of the Jag instead. Pinball Fantasies was already a couple of years old IIRC.

Edited by save2600, Mon Oct 4, 2010 1:31 PM.

[Nuclear Pacman]

I would have liked to have Pinball Illusions, the 3rd game in the series. I think that would have been more appropriate for the Jaguar. I've never played Pinball Illusions as I never owned an Amiga, but all reviews I've read are glowing, and the tables are much better than the PF tables.

[Isgoed]

One thing that Ruiner definitely does right, in comparison with PF, is the ability to nudge the table sideways with the shoulder buttons.

[Gaztee]

I just love Ruiner - for me PF was to polished for me to enjoy! I spent waaaay to many hours on the Ruiner table, the tower just didn't quite do it for me as much, but still enjoyed it!!

[save2600]

Sorry if this strays too much from the original topic, but to everyone that likes Ruiner so much... what do you think of Alien's Crush, Devil's Crush (both TG-16 games) and Dragon's Fury (Genny)? Crue Ball, Sonic Spinball (both Genny) and Timeball (TG-16) are NOT in the same league IMO.

Alien and Devil... those are my absolute favorite "fantasy" video pinball games. By fantasy, I mean non-traditional graphics - but the game's are generally extremely faithful when it comes to the playability and physics of a real pinball - for a video pintable that is. Polished wise, they trump Ruiner in spades - again, IMO.

If you've never played some of these, they're worth checking out

Edited by save2600, Tue Oct 5, 2010 9:18 PM.

[Austin]

Gunstarhero, on Mon Oct 4, 2010 2:32 PM, said:

I would have liked to have Pinball Illusions, the 3rd game in the series. I think that would have been more appropriate for the Jaguar. I've never played Pinball Illusions as I never owned an Amiga, but all reviews I've read are glowing, and the tables are much better than the PF tables.

Pinball Illusions was released on the Saturn and PlayStation in America (with enhancements) as "True Pinball". It's pretty cheap, so check it out if you're interested. I think the console conversion was called something different in other territories.

save2600, on Tue Oct 5, 2010 9:17 PM, said:

Sorry if this strays too much from the original topic, but to everyone that likes Ruiner so much... what do you think of Alien's Crush, Devil's Crush (both TG-16 games) and Dragon's Fury (Genny)?

Yeah, Ruiner is definitely in the same league as these, probably one of the reasons I originally wanted to play it (and still enjoy it mildly today). It can't hold a candle next to them, but regardless, you can tell where it got its inspiration from.

[The_Laird]

I have always preffered Ruiner which is still one of my most played Jag games.

PF is good but I only really find myself playing the Stones N Bones table and there is a tactic you can use on that to get really high scores which makes it get kinda boring after a while.

Ruiner could have looked a little nice I suppose but I think it plays well and the sound is really good, I can play it for hours.

[the.golden.ax]

Austin, on Tue Oct 5, 2010 9:36 PM, said:

Gunstarhero, on Mon Oct 4, 2010 2:32 PM, said:

I would have liked to have Pinball Illusions, the 3rd game in the series. I think that would have been more appropriate for the Jaguar. I've never played Pinball Illusions as I never owned an Amiga, but all reviews I've read are glowing, and the tables are much better than the PF tables.

Pinball Illusions was released on the Saturn and PlayStation in America (with enhancements) as "True Pinball". It's pretty cheap, so check it out if you're interested. I think the console conversion was called something different in other territories.

save2600, on Tue Oct 5, 2010 9:17 PM, said:

Sorry if this strays too much from the original topic, but to everyone that likes Ruiner so much... what do you think of Alien's Crush, Devil's Crush (both TG-16 games) and Dragon's Fury (Genny)?

Yeah, Ruiner is definitely in the same league as these, probably one of the reasons I originally wanted to play it (and still enjoy it mildly today). It can't hold a candle next to them, but regardless, you can tell where it got its inspiration from.

REALLY? Way cool, that was one of the Saturn games I picked up for ultra cheap last week as posted in the thrift thread. It's packed away waiting for me to move, but what a cool surprise waiting to be used when I get "home."

AX

[Nuclear Pacman]

Thanks for the info on True Pinball Austin, I had no idea that was a port of Pinball Illusions. I shall try and grab a copy of that for PS1.

[Austin]

Well, a year later, here I am playing Pinball Fantasies on the regular once again. I am trying to obtain another copy of Ruiner now, so I can't comment on my feelings with that. Due to the nature of its physics though, I don't think it will change much.

Last year I had never really played real pinball asides from the occasional run-in at a hole-in-the-wall arcade, or some other family themed place. However, after getting the modern Pinball Hall of Fame collections, I decided to see if there are any local places to play the real thing. At the beginning of the Summer, I discovered a nearby bar where a pinball league is held on a weekly basis, with a dozen tables or so. Needless to say, I've been playing on the real deal at least once a week since, so my view on video pinball games has changed vastly. Now I actually dislike some of them more than before. On the other hand though, I have a greater appreciation for a video pinball game that manages to get some of the realistic aspects right, which is something I now realize Pinball Fantasies does, to a degree, anyway.

Now, while I do appreciate PF a little bit more, my feelings overall are still mixed, but in a different way now. Last year I thought things just happened at random. The ball was unpredictible. There was little control over it. I drained all the time, and games could be short and frustrating. Not so much the case anymore, as thanks to playing real pins, I now realize you can have decent ball control here. Still not ideal (I'm looking at you, shifty nudging), but better than before. One very useful form of this ball control is the dead flipper bounce, where you let the falling ball hit one flipper, and it naturally bounces to the other. After that, I can catch the ball safely and make an educated shot. No longer, for the most part anyway, am I randomly shooting at things hoping the ball hits something good. My scores are a lot higher than before, too.

Another neat thing is at one point, I disliked all but one table in Pinball Fantasies (Stones 'n Bones). Now, being better at my shots thanks to real pinball, I now like each and every table.

There's something that bugs me about them though, something I didn't notice before, and it's that every table uses nearly the same structure to advance the game. Typically, only a single light is lit on the playfield when you launch the ball, usually on a ramp of some sort. But hitting that lit ramp doesn't seem to do anything asides from adding to a running tally, which is usually added to the end-of-ball bonus. To actually activate modes, or advance the lights on the center of the playfield that usually lead to the massive points, I've noticed that you have to hit the drop targets. And not just two or three, but ALL of them. This is very annoying, as they are spread so far out on each table. With the limp physics the ball seems to have when aiming from the very tip of a flipper, it's very, very difficult to hit these. I don't think I would mind this much if it was on one table, but you have to hit the drop targets on *every* table in order to do anything special. Four tables, same basic setup. What doesn't help this any more is that even the bumpers are setup nearly the same way on three tables, and simply mirrored on two (Party Land and Billion Dollar Game Show).

So, I'm torn at the moment. I like the game more in some ways than before, but now I dislike it more in other ways. I'm curious to hear others' thoughts that may have some thorough experience on real pins as well.

Edited by Austin, Thu Nov 3, 2011 8:23 PM.

[save2600]

Austin, on Thu Nov 3, 2011 8:21 PM, said:

So, I'm torn at the moment. I like the game more in some ways than before, but now I dislike it more in other ways. I'm curious to hear others' thoughts that may have some thorough experience on real pins as well.

Your awareness of the basics now has allowed you to progress in a way that realizes the shortcomings of video pinball - especially that of Pinball Fantasies and *especially* PF on the Jag. Which is seriously flawed in its ball travel math than other versions. I discovered this little tidbit after competing in the H.S. thread here at AA one night. I always knew there was something "wrong" with the Jag version, but could never really put my finger on it until then. It simply does not have that analog where you know the ball can travel throughout any part of the play field it or your flippers, wishes. It's severely stunted in a digital, limiting sort of way. Other versions are not as "stiff" as limiting though. For example, I know for a fact that the Amiga versions have more variety to them in the ball travel sense. This is what I mean by the Jag version having its math wrong.

Anyway, the other thing I can't stand about PF on the Jag is how stubby the play field is visually. In pinball, your eye can perceive most of the play field all in one frame. Video pinball tries to compensate by scrolling the screen, which is the natural "fix" and compromise here. Problem with the Jag version is that its part of the play field that's visible at a given time, is even more narrow than others versions which would normally make it tougher for you to plan and line up a shot. Perhaps the math or algorithm being stunted for ball travel was done on purpose for the Jag? To compensate even further for the crummy "camera". So basically, since you cannot see as much of the play field as you should, we'll just limit how many different ways the ball will travel from the flippers. Somehow, I doubt that much thought went into this particular translation though.

But yeah, while I love Pinball Fantasies on the Amiga (and now the iPhone) - it was a little "behind" the times (features, play field layout and rule set wise) when it was first originally released though but it's a much better effort than Pinball Dreams IMO. Never really did care for PD to be honest.

Regarding "limp physics" in PF as you said, some of those shots are indeed tough and not in a good way unfortunately. Just have to learn to time your shots just right, which would be wrong in real pinball if that makes any sense. It's almost as if they purposely mis-index the flippers as to make the game artificially and unnecessarily more difficult. Any decently designed table will allow you to make a shot, any shot, that's on the opposite side of your flipper, with very little effort. If you're good and the flippers are properly indexed, you should even get the ball to travel to the same side as the flipper that struck it. If the flippers are positioned too far down and you can't adjust their indexing (i.e.: resting position and coil stop ending position) since its a video pinball game, you're screwed! Indexing on PF is too low in fact. On all versions and since the flipper never swings far enough up, makes a ton of shots more of a pain in the ass than they need to be. And not in a good, challenging sort of way. More like some asshat, who shouldn't be programming a video pinball game is programming a video pinball game and the people who bothered to play test the damn thing, wouldn't know the difference between a Gottlieb and a Williams pintable. And that's been the rule of thumb, decade after decade in most all video pinball cases. Either the flipper indexing is too far down or too high up. Too high up and now you can't make the lower opposite play field shots and your left hoping to heck that the ball will accidentally strike the target sometime or somehow - which is NOT what real pinball players, playing a REAL pinball machine, EVER relies on.

Edited by save2600, Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:27 PM.

[Willard]

I personally prefer ruiner, but then again pinball sims never really appealed to me. Would rather play real pinball on a pinball machine and "adventure" type pinball on a console. The physics in ruiner are constant, but just like most video games, they don't accurately reflect the physics in reality. Easily one of my top 10 Jaguar games and one of the best in the genre IMO.

Edited by Willard, Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:25 PM.

[epobirs]

save2600, on Tue Oct 5, 2010 9:17 PM, said:

Sorry if this strays too much from the original topic, but to everyone that likes Ruiner so much... what do you think of Alien's Crush, Devil's Crush (both TG-16 games) and Dragon's Fury (Genny)? Crue Ball, Sonic Spinball (both Genny) and Timeball (TG-16) are NOT in the same league IMO.

Alien and Devil... those are my absolute favorite "fantasy" video pinball games. By fantasy, I mean non-traditional graphics - but the game's are generally extremely faithful when it comes to the playability and physics of a real pinball - for a video pintable that is. Polished wise, they trump Ruiner in spades - again, IMO.

If you've never played some of these, they're worth checking out

I agree, the Crush series is the standard for this kind of fantasy pinball genre. There was a third game on the Super Famicom in Japan that was never released here. Every copy I ever saw was priced far too high for me to justify buying.

Another good one in the same vein is Pinball of the Dead on the GBA. It's themed on the Sega 'House of the Dead' series.

[Nuclear Pacman]

epobirs, on Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:58 AM, said:

save2600, on Tue Oct 5, 2010 9:17 PM, said:

Sorry if this strays too much from the original topic, but to everyone that likes Ruiner so much... what do you think of Alien's Crush, Devil's Crush (both TG-16 games) and Dragon's Fury (Genny)? Crue Ball, Sonic Spinball (both Genny) and Timeball (TG-16) are NOT in the same league IMO.

Alien and Devil... those are my absolute favorite "fantasy" video pinball games. By fantasy, I mean non-traditional graphics - but the game's are generally extremely faithful when it comes to the playability and physics of a real pinball - for a video pintable that is. Polished wise, they trump Ruiner in spades - again, IMO.

If you've never played some of these, they're worth checking out

I agree, the Crush series is the standard for this kind of fantasy pinball genre. There was a third game on the Super Famicom in Japan that was never released here. Every copy I ever saw was priced far too high for me to justify buying.

Another good one in the same vein is Pinball of the Dead on the GBA. It's themed on the Sega 'House of the Dead' series.

never got the chance to play PotD, but I had a blast with Metroid Prime Pinball on GBA, wow that was good. Makes me wish I kept my GBA, plus it had that rumble cartridge that came with the game. The rumble was underwhelming, but what a fantastic overall package that pinball game was.

[Austin]

Well, I got ahold of another Ruiner cart. I have to say, I'm less impressed with it now than I was before. The physics in this game really are terrible, and the flippers either seem to be "up", or "down". There's no in-between. Shots are absurdly difficult to make, partially due to that, and partially due to the fact that your ball doesn't roll smoothly down the flipper. Nope, it bounces slightly on the flippers' ridges. Lame.

I will be giving this one some more time, mainly for the Jaguar HSC, but I don't think I will grow to appreciate it like Devil's Crush/Dragon's Fury.

save2600, on Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:02 PM, said:

Regarding "limp physics" in PF as you said, some of those shots are indeed tough and not in a good way unfortunately. Just have to learn to time your shots just right, which would be wrong in real pinball if that makes any sense. It's almost as if they purposely mis-index the flippers as to make the game artificially and unnecessarily more difficult. Any decently designed table will allow you to make a shot, any shot, that's on the opposite side of your flipper, with very little effort. If you're good and the flippers are properly indexed, you should even get the ball to travel to the same side as the flipper that struck it. If the flippers are positioned too far down and you can't adjust their indexing (i.e.: resting position and coil stop ending position) since its a video pinball game, you're screwed! Indexing on PF is too low in fact. On all versions and since the flipper never swings far enough up, makes a ton of shots more of a pain in the ass than they need to be. And not in a good, challenging sort of way. More like some asshat, who shouldn't be programming a video pinball game is programming a video pinball game and the people who bothered to play test the damn thing, wouldn't know the difference between a Gottlieb and a Williams pintable. And that's been the rule of thumb, decade after decade in most all video pinball cases. Either the flipper indexing is too far down or too high up. Too high up and now you can't make the lower opposite play field shots and your left hoping to heck that the ball will accidentally strike the target sometime or somehow - which is NOT what real pinball players, playing a REAL pinball machine, EVER relies on.

I hear you man! This has to be my biggest complaint with video pinball games. Either the flippers don't swing high enough, or they swing too high (this is especially the case with several more "modern" video pinball games). In Pinball Fantasies though, the lack of serious flipper strength compounds on the frustration. The flippers feel so weak that sometimes it is even difficult getting the ball up an opposite-sided ramp. Good luck getting it up a same-sided ramp, as backhand shots are impossible in this game, at least from a cradle position, heh.

I also have to add, the zoomed-playfield doesn't bother me that much (I can predict where the ball is going pretty well). I do think they should have made it larger, or somehow managed to perhaps overlay the score on top of the playfield, or have it appear and disappear at various times like in Epic Pinball for the PC. I was able to get used to it though and don't mind it too much--it's the physics (or lack thereof ) that really kills it for me.

Nuclear Pacman, on Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:00 PM, said:

never got the chance to play PotD, but I had a blast with Metroid Prime Pinball on GBA, wow that was good. Makes me wish I kept my GBA, plus it had that rumble cartridge that came with the game. The rumble was underwhelming, but what a fantastic overall package that pinball game was.

Metroid Prime Pinball on the DS is an excellent video pinball game. I spent hours upon hours with it years ago and have even been considering reacquiring a DS just for that game.

[Nuclear Pacman]

oh yeah it was the DS wasn't it! Seems like ages ago for some reason....

[Austin]

Nuclear Pacman, on Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:50 AM, said:

oh yeah it was the DS wasn't it! Seems like ages ago for some reason....

Well, when you think about it, it was!

The DS came out in, what, 2004? Metroid Prime Pinball probably wasn't more than a year later (I recall buying it early on)!

[so_tough!]

save2600, on Tue Oct 5, 2010 9:17 PM, said:

Sorry if this strays too much from the original topic, but to everyone that likes Ruiner so much... what do you think of Alien's Crush, Devil's Crush (both TG-16 games) and Dragon's Fury (Genny)? Crue Ball, Sonic Spinball (both Genny) and Timeball (TG-16) are NOT in the same league IMO.

Alien and Devil... those are my absolute favorite "fantasy" video pinball games. By fantasy, I mean non-traditional graphics - but the game's are generally extremely faithful when it comes to the playability and physics of a real pinball - for a video pintable that is. Polished wise, they trump Ruiner in spades - again, IMO.

If you've never played some of these, they're worth checking out

Alien's and devils crush are great games!