22 replies to this topic

[theloon]

So, I just had an idea. What if every cart an a homebrew run had a different dungeon? Each buyer would have not only a unique manufacture number but actual differences in the game levels.

How cool would this be?

Would Albert personally motor-bike over my cranium if I handed him an order for 50 unique binary images to be put into carts?

[ApolloBoy]

It depends on which games you're talking about. Besides, I'd imagine something like that would be very time-consuming on the programmer's part.

[Albert]

theloon, on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:08 PM, said:

So, I just had an idea. What if every cart an a homebrew run had a different dungeon? Each buyer would have not only a unique manufacture number but actual differences in the game levels.

How cool would this be?

Would Albert personally motor-bike over my cranium if I handed him an order for 50 unique binary images to be put into carts?

I think that's a pretty cool idea, actually. It would require a fair bit of organization to keep the binaries and carts straight, but I would be willing to do it.

..Al

[GroovyBee]

My numbered cart releases have all had unique binaries. However, it was only a small change between them all. If you are talking unique worlds/levels you might be better off going with a piece of PC software that knows how to generate and compact the data down and then it copies it straight into the binary.

[theloon]

Thanks for the replies guys! Good to know it's not TOO insane a thought.My current game relies heavily on pseudo random number generators. Technically all I'd have to do is change the master seed and dungeon, item and monster locations/layout would all be different.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Albert, on Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:39 AM, said:

I think that's a pretty cool idea, actually. It would require a fair bit of organization to keep the binaries and carts straight, but I would be willing to do it.

If there is a random number generator involved (e.g. like for Pitfall! or River Raid) for creating the maps etc., only the seed and (optionally) the generator code would have to be changed. Pretty simple.

[Arjak]

If this actually ever happens, I will feel bad for the variant collectors.

[theloon]

Arjak, on Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:45 PM, said:

If this actually ever happens, I will feel bad for the variant collectors.

I never quite understood collecting versions of games. Neotokeo2001 and others have been encouraging me to make improvements to Nitebear on Sleepystreet but, wouldn't that make his original, untweaked game cartridge not as rewarding?

Edited by theloon, Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:57 PM.

[ZylonBane]

theloon, on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:08 PM, said:

So, I just had an idea. What if every cart an a homebrew run had a different dungeon? Each buyer would have not only a unique manufacture number but actual differences in the game levels.

How cool would this be?

Zero cool. What would be the point? How would this make for a better game? Normal people buy games to play them, not to be different.

[theloon]

ZylonBane, on Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:33 PM, said:

theloon, on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:08 PM, said:

So, I just had an idea. What if every cart an a homebrew run had a different dungeon? Each buyer would have not only a unique manufacture number but actual differences in the game levels.

How cool would this be?

Zero cool. What would be the point? How would this make for a better game? Normal people buy games to play them, not to be different.

I think the danger in every cart having different dungeons is in the potential for blandness. I'm having to check myself every step of the way to make sure that doesn't happen. Glad to have your feedback ZylonBane!

[ZylonBane]

Okay... um... what you said had nothing at all to do with what I said.

Maybe you should be expending more effort on making your game better and less effort on pointless divisive gimmicks.

[theloon]

ZylonBane, on Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:51 AM, said:

Okay... um... what you said had nothing at all to do with what I said.

Maybe you should be expending more effort on making your game better and less effort on pointless divisive gimmicks.

I apologize ZylonBane! Please, explain in greater detail what you said if you feel I missed it. You always provide awesome feedback and I'm glad to hear it What would make a game better? What should I be focusing on that you find currently deficient?

Your opinions may not represent the management but I'd take them over a hundred CEOs any day!!!!

Edited by theloon, Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:07 PM.

[Robert M]

I think this is a bad idea. You are going to the trouble of writing a random dungeon generator, and then you are going to disable that work in your final product. The resulting game experience could be highly uneven between customers. I could see some angry discussions breaking out as people feel they were cheated out of the full experience. The console has a select switch. Why not keep the random dungeon as a feature and then let the user select a specific "random" dungeon. That way you can build a community of players who will identify the best of the random dungeons and share that on the internet. Thus building interest in your game and maximizing the effort you are putting into the development.

Cheers!

[phaxda]

I think it sounds neat. As I read the topic it sounded like you were actually going to make the PHYSICAL cart (i.e., the plastic housing) different, not just the binary. But I see no reason to not do both. Sure you can put a different "limited edition" number on each cart/label, but why not MELT it in or something? That would be pretty cool.

[theloon]

Well, there's no extra effort in enabling or disabling random dungeon generation. But, maybe I could make it a difficulty setting or game select kinda thing. That could be the way to go.

Physically modding the cart wasn't even something I remotely imagined! It's a cool idea. I'm kinda afraid that anything that sticks out will be scraped off when the user stows the game away in their Atari 2600 cart holder.

[haroldoop]

Maybe you could use an 16-bit random number generator, and the top eight bits of the seed would be fixed for each cart, while the bottom eight bits of the seed could be selectable by the user. That way, you could have up to 256 unique carts (the top part), each with up to 256 unique dungeons (the bottom part).

[Gateway]

theloon, on Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:52 PM, said:

Arjak, on Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:45 PM, said:

If this actually ever happens, I will feel bad for the variant collectors.

I never quite understood collecting versions of games. Neotokeo2001 and others have been encouraging me to make improvements to Nitebear on Sleepystreet but, wouldn't that make his original, untweaked game cartridge not as rewarding?

I liked your "Nitebear" project and also would like to see you tweak it into a more polished game.

I think the difference between Neo's physical, untweaked cart(s), and a later, polished edition is just the "collectible" factor. Having been signed by "Freddy" gives the item a unique story to go with having it. Some collectors like these "very limited" or "one-of-a-kind" items, so they have their place. Me, I like to collect items that other people can also get, or have an equal chance at.. it levels the playing field.

I guess it depends on the value one thinks something is worth to them.

As far as having a unique program for every game, I don't think it would work out very well. When I produced my limited release Globetrotter demo cart and box, etc. I did like GroovyBee, and made 26 unique binary files, each with a different letter of the alphabet on the titlescreen. In my case, the programming didn't take much time, however, keeping them organized was a challenge once I put the boards inside the cart shells, then had to remember which letter to put on the label, then the front of the box, etc.. It can be done, but is very time-consuming!

If you are doing unique pieces of "art", then you can ask for a higher price, since each artpiece will be unique and custom.. but also takes more time and energy to produce. A one-of-a-kind, original painting can sell for top dollar to the right person, OR you could sell hundreds of "prints" of your work for a lot less per piece. Depends on what market you are selling too, I guess.

Are you selling to the "prototypes" crowd or the "gamer/collector" crowd?

Me, I like the idea that was suggested: use the select switch to either play the "standard" dungeon (so people can compare scores) or "random play"

[ZylonBane]

Gateway, on Sun Nov 7, 2010 6:35 AM, said:

Are you selling to the "prototypes" crowd or the "gamer/collector" crowd?

He's certainly not selling to the "just want to play the game" crowd, since they would have zero motivation to intentionally pay for less variety.

[JingleJoe]

This reminds me of mazecraze, but rather than there being different levels on each cart, every new level is different. I don't know if there is a huge library of mazes in the cart or if they are generated each time you reset the game (I think they are generated new each reset) I've played thousands of mazes and no two were alike, from time to time you'd see similar patterns in the mazes but they are all different!

It would be interesting to have two versions of your idea Mr loon: the unique versions of the game and a version which generates a new level each time you turn on the console.

[theloon]

Hey, thanks for the input everyone! This has gone way beyond a yea or nay debate and given me more ideas than I imagined.

I think I'll keep the master seed static for the main dungeon. Just like Adventure the later play levels will be random. I think Zylonbanes wisdom kinda tempered my enthusiasm for randomly generated content. If I was gonna make each cart unique it better be damn, er, unique. Right now my dungeons aren't very much so.

Right now I'm just planning on making a few real carts for a local video game store. As per my previous releases source and binary will be available on AtariAge.

[raskar42]

theloon, on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:08 PM, said:

So, I just had an idea. What if every cart an a homebrew run had a different dungeon? Each buyer would have not only a unique manufacture number but actual differences in the game levels.

How cool would this be?

Would Albert personally motor-bike over my cranium if I handed him an order for 50 unique binary images to be put into carts?

kind of a lot of negativity here....

i think it's a good idea provided you don't get a cart with dead ends or impossible mazes. or a cart that's too easy.

This reminds me a bit of Yoda Stories for the PC( a truly awesome game)

That game generated random mazes by having separate rooms, and a randomly generated room order.
i'm not a programmer so i'm not sure how they did it, but the effect was great.

i think they made a version for the game boy that did not have random mazes and was panned critically, i don't know if that was due to a limitation on the gb hardware or a management choice.


anyway i think it's a different idea for a vcs game , and anything different should be explored, even if it ultimately dosen't work.

[theloon]

Quote

i think it's a good idea provided you don't get a cart with dead ends or impossible mazes. or a cart that's too easy.

I've attempted (and hopefully succeeded) in nailing this problem down by 2 ways:

Although the next room generated has no checking for matching entrances and exits my code "bulldozes" a matching exit back to the last room. This becomes a feature as some rooms appear to have "trap doors" that close after a player exits and reenters the room.

The first technique still doesn't solve the case for 2 room "cages" that never lead to further areas of the dungeon. For this scenario I've programmed in a random chance a room will turn into an alternate version. Since each room has a normal state and a rare state I've never been able to lock myself in.

[raskar42]

it sounds interesting. i could see the discussions it may prompt as people compare their versions.

i'm not usually into dungeon games, but i would buy a copy for posterity.