38 replies to this topic

[cimerians]

Pixelboy, on Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:26 AM, said:

Cybergoth, on Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:37 AM, said:

This video perfectly sums up my thoughts regarding some of the "issues" a lot of people seem to have with Other M (especially those who actually haven't even played it):

http://gameoverthink...to-metroid.html

Very nice video, but I think mister "overthinker" is missing the point. It's true that Samus has always been a "robot" of sorts, causing us gamers to fill in the blanks about her personality. But let me ask you this: How many successful video games series let us do that to such an extent? A video game series where an entire world is created, an entire complex storyline is forged around a galactic threat (let it be Metroids, Space Pirates or Phazon) without actually taking the time to define the main hero's personality in relation to this threat? There have been many such series, actually, I'm sure you can name a few (Contra, Castlevania and Ghost'n Goblins comes to my mind) but most of the time there's a storyline plot point that explains why the heroes are there (you're a soldier presumably acting under orders in Contra, and you're a descendant of the Belmont clan in Castlevania). Most of the time, such "heroes" are men, so automatically we assume that there's this sense of "duty" and "respect for hierarchy" that defines the character and sets the stage for their mission. We don't need to define the personality of the hero, we just borrow a page from the "military duty handbook", apply it to the hero, and then we tackle the real problem, which is how to survive and fulfill the game's objective(s).

Out of habit, we gamers also applied the "military duty handbook" to Samus Aran, since she's a bounty hunter and all, but there's a slight difference here: There's no real hierarchy that overshadows Samus' activities (the exception being Metroid Fusion). As a lone bounty hunter, Samus can leave the planet/space station/whatever in her gunship any time she wants, in theory. The way the story is usually set up in the Metroid games, SHE sticks around because SHE wants to. Or rather, the game itself doesn't let us leave, because all that keeps Samus from leaving is her pure sense of duty, and her need to get the job completely done. And the fact that she's a woman only serves to solidify the respect that we have for this particular hero character.

We gamers took that "robot placeholder" female character that Nintendo created, and collectively defined a personality for her. This personality wasn't defined by game manuals, or by in-game intermissions. It wasn't even infered by the fact that she's a woman. It was defined strictly by her accomplishments: She ventured into dangerous and unexplored territories, faced hordes of nightmarish alien creatures, stood up to powerful monsters several times her own human size, and she survived it all powered only by her sense of duty towards galactic peace. In my book, that's the very definition of a bad-ass hero, regardless of gender. And we're supposed to believe that Samus Aran is NOT fearless? That she's NOT stoic in the face of danger, even in the smallest degree?

The point I'm trying to make is that Samus has always been OURS, in terms of character definition. From one Metroid game to the next, we collectively reached a consensus about what her personality is like, and Retro Studios respected this consensus when they created the Prime series. Now a small band of japanese game designers sitting comfortably in their ivory tower comes along and assign a backstory to OUR hero, giving her feelings and doubts that clash terribly with our collective consensus, and we're supposed to say "Okay, I guess we didn't know Samus like we thought we did"? Off with their heads, I say!!!

I'm not saying that it was wrong to define a back-story for Samus. In fact, personally, I've been waiting for years for Nintendo to properly define her back-story via an official installment in the Metroid series. But there's just something fondamentaly wrong about how they went about it in Other M, and given the general online response to this particular issue, I'd say I'm not alone with this perception. It's okay to define a back-story for Samus, to give her memories and experiences that help us better understand where she came from, who she is and what makes her tick, but when OUR hero character is practically redefined (dare I say even re-imagined) to the point where she acts in ways that are uncharacteristic of her, I'm sorry but I can't help but cry foul.

So after Other M, our previous collective definition and perception of Samus Aran was wrong because, what, we're not game designers working for Nintendo? I say owning a copyright/trademark over a game character doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with this character and not expect a backlash reaction from fans, especially for a hero character like Samus Aran. No, Nintendo didn't previously "define" Samus Aran like they usually do with their other video game hero characters, we Metroid fans defined it. And I say this definition is just as valid and as solid as anything Nintendo could come up with, especially since this character definition was reached by general consensus, based mostly on Samus' accomplishments in the many games she starred in.

Basically, they crossed a line they shouldn't have crossed, and I think they genuinely deserve the complaints they're getting for it. And the ironic thing is that these complaints would never have surfaced if they had simply made a few minor adjustments to the in-game intermissions in Other M, in order to make Samus a little more independent towards Adam.

I COULD NOT have put it better myself. Thank you and forward this post to Mr. Reggie Fils-Aime.



But thats not the ONLY reason. You HAVE to compare it to Prime and when you do, it just doesn't compete. I don't see how he can't see that?

Who's going to buy the game? People who played Prime of course. I did! It's common sense. Word spreads by the way not like in the old days. If it doesn't sell then that means people aren't interested.

He needs to understand that. It's a good Metroid game, I like it but guess what? I played better with the Prime games. I just couldn't get into it, there's really no world to get into.

And yes, chicks think she's a wuss and thats never a good thing.
(Its true)

Aimee is not the only woman I read about who thinks its an insult.

I wont go that far but I can definitely see their point.

[Christophero Sly]

StanJr, on Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:09 PM, said:

You cannot create a successful platform that is to be primarily supported by people who have nothing more than a passing interest in the genre.

Sure you can. The Wii has already proved it.

StanJr, on Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:09 PM, said:

The casual gamer is what vaulted Wii to the top, but they are not Nintendo's core demographic. (this is actually a more accurate assessment of the DS, but again I do not think it holds.)

Casual gamers have clearly been responsible for the majority of Wii console purchases. Thus, they make up the Wii's core demographic.

StanJr, on Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:09 PM, said:

You can't sell many cars to people who only drive every now and then.

There are millions of "casual" drivers in this country.

Perhaps I'm not understanding the point that you're trying to make. Maybe you could clarify.

[StanJr]

I continue to disagree with you. The car industry does not survive and thrive on casual drivers. America is a commuter society and the auto industry was built on that fact. You don't sell a $16K car to someone who is only going to drive it now and then. You sell cars to people who drive them everyday to work, to the grocery, and pretty much everywhere else. There can be millions of casual drivers, but with 312 Million people in the US, a few million are less than 1%.

You can't build a product on a customer base that "might" be interested in the product, I don't care what the product is. Video game enthusiasts are the backbone of the industry, across the board. The casual gamer demographic is what vaulted Nintendo to the top over its competitors, but the core has to be the people already buying video games or it just doesn't work. It is fundamental economic theory. The cigarette and alcohol producers don't make their money off casual smokers and drinkers. It would be financial suicide for Nintendo to launch their next great console with casual gamers as the core demographic. It just doesn't happen.

[Pixelboy]

cimerians, on Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:30 PM, said:

But thats not the ONLY reason. You HAVE to compare it to Prime and when you do, it just doesn't compete. I don't see how he can't see that?

You're assuming Reggie Fils-Aimée is a gamer? He's probably not, you know...

Quote

Who's going to buy the game? People who played Prime of course. I did! It's common sense. Word spreads by the way not like in the old days. If it doesn't sell then that means people aren't interested.

Mostly true, but I'd say it's a little more complicated than that. If Reggie asked me why Other M didn't meet his sales expectations despite all of Nintendo's marketing effort with the game, I would explain it to him this way: In the old days, when you fired up the hype machine via printed media (mostly gaming magazines like EGM and GamePro), gamers would buy into the hype and go purchase the game on release day. There was no widespread internet back then, so gamers had to follow their gut feeling and take a chance with a purchase, or at least a rent. So via general sales figures, you could directly determine how well the hype machine did its job. Today, it's not the same deal at all: When you fire up the hype machine for your upcoming game via all the media outlets available, all you're really doing is building up interest in the first online reviews of the game. You can be sure that such online reviews will be posted on the same day as the game's release in stores (sometimes even before that) and if enough hype was generated, lots of people will rush to read the reviews. If the early reviews are even the slightest bit lukewarm, then the hype you paid so much to build up will deflate quite fast.

So today, it's not enough to build up hype via a marketing campaign. The general rule of thumbs is that if you put a tremendous effort into marketing for a game, than this game better be downright perfect in every respect. Today, over-hype is 100% sure to blow up in your face. It's the initial reviews that count, and the follow-up reviews from individual gamers on various internet gaming forums count even more.

Other M simply didn't live up to expectations, and a lot of people decided to refrain from buying it as a result. Hence the lower-than-expected sales figures. But then, Other M had such dignified ancestors as the Prime series, and even Super Metroid, so hype failure was likely...

[Christophero Sly]

StanJr, on Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:33 PM, said:

I continue to disagree with you. The car industry does not survive and thrive on casual drivers. America is a commuter society and the auto industry was built on that fact. You don't sell a $16K car to someone who is only going to drive it now and then. You sell cars to people who drive them everyday to work, to the grocery, and pretty much everywhere else. There can be millions of casual drivers, but with 312 Million people in the US, a few million are less than 1%.

I didn't say the car industry thrived on casual drivers.

Regardless, this analogy your attempting to draw between video games and automobiles isn't relevant. You're trying to equate apples with oranges. Automobiles and video games are completely different industries/markets, governed by differing forces.

StanJr, on Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:33 PM, said:

You can't build a product on a customer base that "might" be interested in the product, I don't care what the product is.

Fair enough, but I don't understand what this has to do with Other M not appealing to the casual gamers that make up the vast majority of Wii owners.

StanJr, on Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:33 PM, said:

Video game enthusiasts are the backbone of the industry, across the board. The casual gamer demographic is what vaulted Nintendo to the top over its competitors, but the core has to be the people already buying video games or it just doesn't work.

Right, and I believe this is why Other M isn't selling. Again, the Wii's primary demographic (it's core) are casual gamers and they have shown (time and again) that they have zero interest in games like Other M.

StanJr, on Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:33 PM, said:

It is fundamental economic theory. The cigarette and alcohol producers don't make their money off casual smokers and drinkers.

Apples and oranges again. Nevertheless, the analogy would actually seem to fit my point--if Other M is a "hardcore"(as opposed to casual) game, like alcohol is a "hardcore" beverage, then you're not going sell any copies of Other M to families who are shopping for a gallon of milk.

StanJr, on Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:33 PM, said:

It would be financial suicide for Nintendo to launch their next great console with casual gamers as the core demographic. It just doesn't happen.

It's already happened. Casual gamers are the Wii's core demographic, and the Wii has been making money for Nintendo hand over fist.


I apologize for dissecting your post like this, but I'm afraid that I'm still struggling to understand what your point is. Nor am I clear on what it is, specifically, that I've said that you disagree with.

[cimerians]

Pixelboy, on Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:39 PM, said:

cimerians, on Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:30 PM, said:

But thats not the ONLY reason. You HAVE to compare it to Prime and when you do, it just doesn't compete. I don't see how he can't see that?

You're assuming Reggie Fils-Aimée is a gamer? He's probably not, you know...

Quote

Who's going to buy the game? People who played Prime of course. I did! It's common sense. Word spreads by the way not like in the old days. If it doesn't sell then that means people aren't interested.

Mostly true, but I'd say it's a little more complicated than that. If Reggie asked me why Other M didn't meet his sales expectations despite all of Nintendo's marketing effort with the game, I would explain it to him this way: In the old days, when you fired up the hype machine via printed media (mostly gaming magazines like EGM and GamePro), gamers would buy into the hype and go purchase the game on release day. There was no widespread internet back then, so gamers had to follow their gut feeling and take a chance with a purchase, or at least a rent. So via general sales figures, you could directly determine how well the hype machine did its job. Today, it's not the same deal at all: When you fire up the hype machine for your upcoming game via all the media outlets available, all you're really doing is building up interest in the first online reviews of the game. You can be sure that such online reviews will be posted on the same day as the game's release in stores (sometimes even before that) and if enough hype was generated, lots of people will rush to read the reviews. If the early reviews are even the slightest bit lukewarm, then the hype you paid so much to build up will deflate quite fast.

So today, it's not enough to build up hype via a marketing campaign. The general rule of thumbs is that if you put a tremendous effort into marketing for a game, than this game better be downright perfect in every respect. Today, over-hype is 100% sure to blow up in your face. It's the initial reviews that count, and the follow-up reviews from individual gamers on various internet gaming forums count even more.

Other M simply didn't live up to expectations, and a lot of people decided to refrain from buying it as a result. Hence the lower-than-expected sales figures. But then, Other M had such dignified ancestors as the Prime series, and even Super Metroid, so hype failure was likely...

That's how it was in the old days. I think the other thing that may have scared people off is that its actually broke. (Just like what Team Ninja did to me on Ninja Gaiden II for the 360! ).

Nice article here that points the issues of never finishing games, Metroid Other M is mentioned under the "Straight Busted" category:
http://ps3.ign.com/a.../1135264p1.html

[Emehr]

Since I'm a big push-over and I just gotta see for myself, I bought Other M off of Gamefly used ($20!) and it just arrived last night. First impressions? I love the game mechanics. 2D platforming in a 3D world is what I dreamed of when playing my NES back in the day (probably inspired by the underground base in Contra). This is totally the way to go. For this type of game, I'll take this control scheme over the analog stick any day. While some moves take a little work and may seem flaky, I'm glad they're there just for variety's sake.

As far as the narrative...meh. So far there's nothing in the cutscenes that couldn't have been revealed in the manual. I don't like the interruptive nature of the cutscenes, how some seem unnecessary, or the fact that they drag on for too long (eg when Samus first meets Adam and his crew). Right now they just seem to be there to show off the work of the 3D modelers and animators. Why can't they just keep it concise and to the point? Less is more and all that.

The artwork isn't as refined as the Prime series and the scenery looks cartoony in places, but that's not necessarily a bad thing to me. Samus moves quickly so backtracking doesn't seem so much like a chore.

I can't wait to dig into this some more. I got stuck last night and had to check back here to make sure I didn't run into "The Bug". I walked out of a door and it turned red so I couldn't get back in. I was like "Crap!". Turns out it wasn't the bug. Unless I found a new one. .

[Mendon]

Very Interesting editorial from Nintendo Life regarding the controversies surrounding the character of Samus in Other M. Whether I totally/partially agree or disagree with the author, the article did open my eyes a bit regarding the game and perhaps why the direction Team Ninja took the character may be a bit more acceptable than my first impression.


Mendon

Edited by Mendon, Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:18 AM.

[StanJr]

Nintendo should send that writer a check for writing such an apologetic love letter to Metroid. You can't justify lazy, convenient and cliche characterization on the back of one other game in the series, when the wealth of the history says otherwise. This is exactly WHY saving the baby metroid in II is so significant, it is VERY different from what we expect from her. If she's weeping and moping all the time, then this moment has no teeth. Other M is flawed by this characterization and I guess Fusion is as well (I've not played).

If 10 games say "ruthless bounty hunting badass" and 1 or 2 games say "warm and fuzzy bleeding heart" I stick with the 10 and call the 1 or 2 aberrations.

My Samus is still a brash ballbuster. You can keep the weepy emotional Samus.

[Pixelboy]

StanJr, on Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:26 AM, said:

Nintendo should send that writer a check for writing such an apologetic love letter to Metroid. You can't justify lazy, convenient and cliche characterization on the back of one other game in the series, when the wealth of the history says otherwise. This is exactly WHY saving the baby metroid in II is so significant, it is VERY different from what we expect from her. If she's weeping and moping all the time, then this moment has no teeth. Other M is flawed by this characterization and I guess Fusion is as well (I've not played).

If 10 games say "ruthless bounty hunting badass" and 1 or 2 games say "warm and fuzzy bleeding heart" I stick with the 10 and call the 1 or 2 aberrations.

My Samus is still a brash ballbuster. You can keep the weepy emotional Samus.

I too disagree with the article for the most part, because it's way too apologetic. However, I wouldn't call Samus weepy in Other M, just "out of character".

Also, I would like to point out that Team Ninja and Nintendo missed a great opportunity here. Wouldn't it have taken the Metroid series in a bold new direction if the player had actually been given a choice to follow Adam's orders or not? Follow his orders and directives, get on Adam's good side during the game, and get a certain ending. Do whatever you want (use your weaponry and suit features right away, even if it means injuring some of Adam's team along the way), antagonize Adam in the process and you get a totally different game ending. Now THAT would have been cool for a game such as Other M.

Also, Metroid Fusion is nowhere near as bad as Other M where altering Samus' personality is concerned.

Edited by Pixelboy, Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:10 PM.

[StanJr]

Pixelboy, on Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:07 PM, said:

Also, I would like to point out that Team Ninja and Nintendo missed a great opportunity here. Wouldn't it have taken the Metroid series in a bold new direction if the player had actually been given a choice to follow Adam's orders or not? Follow his orders and directives, get on Adam's good side during the game, and get a certain ending. Do whatever you want (use your weaponry and suit features right away, even if it means injuring some of Adam's team along the way), antagonize Adam in the process and you get a totally different game ending. Now THAT would have been cool for a game such as Other M.

I LOVE every word of what you say here. And with 10 hours of game play they certainly had room for it.

[Emehr]

Pixelboy, on Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:07 PM, said:

Also, I would like to point out that Team Ninja and Nintendo missed a great opportunity here. Wouldn't it have taken the Metroid series in a bold new direction if the player had actually been given a choice to follow Adam's orders or not? Follow his orders and directives, get on Adam's good side during the game, and get a certain ending. Do whatever you want (use your weaponry and suit features right away, even if it means injuring some of Adam's team along the way), antagonize Adam in the process and you get a totally different game ending. Now THAT would have been cool for a game such as Other M.

I totally agree. Protagonist characterizations don't mean jack if it's not somehow applicable to the gameplay. Whether Samus is a weepy emo or a cold badass doesn't matter as long as I'm blasting baddies and acquiring new abilities. That's my whole problem with this. Metroid has always been about the gameplay. Making Samus emotional begs the question: why does she have to have a personality at all? She still rolls up into a ball, drops bombs, launches missiles, swims in lava, etc. Her personality has no bearing on the game and is thus pointless. She is a blank slate that the player can interpret any way they want. She shoots stuff. Okay, that means she's a badass. She spared a baby Metroid. Okay, she's not totally heartless. End of story. Samus doesn't need any further characterization any more that that guy in Burgertime. And where does this Adam stuff come into play? "Play" being the key word here. I'm a little ways into Other M and I'm still not sure.

Pixelboy, on Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:07 PM, said:

Also, Metroid Fusion is nowhere near as bad as Other M where altering Samus' personality is concerned.

Yeah. The monologues were short and non-distracting. Something to read while Samus was on an elevator. I think that's why they were bearable and a lot less polarizing.

I really like the game mechanics in Other M and they can continue to make Metroid games in this style and I'll be happy, but the cut-scenes have to go. I'm not too fond of the pixel-hunting parts either. They bring the gameplay to a screeching halt.

[Rex Dart]

I preferred the gameplay of Other M, but had to put it down due to Fusion-like "Dear Diary" bullshit

[Emehr]

I haven't touched this game since my last post. While the game play is neat, I just don't care about the story at all. Cut scenes in general rub me the wrong way and the ones in this game haven't done anything to change my opinion. Not sure if I'll get back to this one which sucks because I'm a huge Metroid fan.