52 replies to this topic

[davidcalgary29]

I've noted that many existing reviews for "Wolfenstein 3D" were written in the context of the pending release of "Doom"...with many of those same reviewers giving "3D" lower marks for being "outdated". I've never seen a review comparing the two games side-by-side, though.

Having now completed both games, I can't help but feel that "3D" is by far the superior game, and one that I'd go back to many times in the future. In contrast, the game environment in "Doom" was terribly oppressive (and dark!) and not really conducive to repeat visits. Any thoughts?

[Thunderbird]

davidcalgary29 said:

I've noted that many existing reviews for "Wolfenstein 3D" were written in the context of the pending release of "Doom"...with many of those same reviewers giving "3D" lower marks for being "outdated". I've never seen a review comparing the two games side-by-side, though.

Having now completed both games, I can't help but feel that "3D" is by far the superior game, and one that I'd go back to many times in the future. In contrast, the game environment in "Doom" was terribly oppressive (and dark!) and not really conducive to repeat visits. Any thoughts?

Doom was a huge hit and started this while FPS trend, so it deserves special credit. I think the reviewers look at it this way because it was so popular.

I like them both and replay them both the same amount. I actually enjoy the oppressive and dark atmosphere in Doom. It really broke the mold and was quite a change from prior games.

[jaysmith2000]

"Thunderbird said:

Doom was a huge hit and started this while FPS trend, so it deserves special credit. I think the reviewers look at it this way because it was so popular.  

I like them both and replay them both the same amount. I actually enjoy the oppressive and dark atmosphere in Doom. It really broke the mold and was quite a change from prior games.

DOOM has always been my pick over the two, but I do enjoy playing Wolfenstein. For those of you who are "in the know", John Romero and Julian Eggebrecht once were fighting over an Atari 7800 auction I had up. The winner in the end was Julian at $1000.00 (quadruple what I had paid for the package), I delivered it personally to his Factor 5 offices (where he told me about a very secret upcoming Star Wars game for the Nintendo 64, which turned out to be Rogue Squadron). Ahhh, the good 'ole days....

Jason

[Sir Plus]

I think that the dark atmosphere made the game more popular, given the plot. Creatures too. Killing off Nazis kind of gets old. Maybe they were using the word "outdated" in that context as opposed to the technology...?

[ATARIPITBULL]

Doom is a great game to play, the monsters they have a cool and hard as hell to beat.

[NE146]

How can you compare the 2? Wolfenstein 3D came out first of course and pretty much pioneered that whole FPS thing.. Then Doom came out after that and was Wolfy 3D taken to the "next level". So you can't really compare as they're from different times! It'd be sort of like comparing the original Dune to Command and Conquer.

If memory serves me right I was dissapointed with Wolf 3D. I was expecting more of a 3D remake of the original.. where was the saurkraut? Where was holding people up, stealing their stuff and then shooting them? Where where the chests? I guess it was good and all (and revolutionary)..but I was wishing for something else I guess

[Thunderbird]

NE146 said:

How can you compare the 2? Wolfenstein 3D came out first of course and pretty much pioneered that whole FPS thing.. Then Doom came out after that and was Wolfy 3D taken to the "next level". So you can't really compare as they're from different times! It'd be sort of like comparing the original Dune to Command and Conquer.

If memory serves me right I was dissapointed with Wolf 3D. I was expecting more of a 3D remake of the original.. where was the saurkraut? Where was holding people up, stealing their stuff and then shooting them? Where where the chests? I guess it was good and all (and revolutionary)..but I was wishing for something else I guess  

The "chests" are back in the latest version of Wolf 3D. This time they put them on the leather clad Nazi babes.

[davidcalgary29]

I really didn't mean to suggest that I was disappointed in the dark "theme" of "Doom" as much as I was in its very dark game environment. Yes, I do have my Jag hooked up a rather poor monitor, but I still find it difficult, at times, to negotiate around each level.

Don't get me wrong -- I do enjoy "Doom", but I was still unpleasantly prepared for its "floaty" control and cluttered map given the fact that they were both so uniformally excellent in "3D".

All points well taken, though!

[Sir Plus]

Thunderbird said:

The "chests" are back in the latest version of Wolf 3D. This time they put them on the leather clad Nazi babes.

Gives new meaning to the phrase "U to use"

[Chris++]

W3D is incredibly repetitious -- all the levels look and act pretty much the same, with the obvious exception of the gradual rise in difficulty. Doom has a lot more variety, plus the added up/down dimension (even if it's not "true 3-D" and rooms can't exist literally on top of one another). W3D only had the one dimension -- no stairways, elevators, etc.

Doom is vastly superior to the other, because it was meant to be. It came out after W3D, and the variety among the levels, the superior control and graphics, and the added enemies and weaponry all serve to make it the better game.

It's funny...Doom came out years ago, and yet I still hold new games against it for comparisons. It's sort of like the ultimate standard.


CF

[Cupcakus]

W3D WAS FPS!!!!!

Doom was of course technically better, all the maps in Wolf3D are composed of square rooms... and if I remember correctly, no ceiling textures... I only played the PC version, as I never owned a Jaguar, but kiling hitler in the third episode gave a kid a joy like no other...

Doom had cooler weapons, and wayyyyy better maps/lighting and of course was the very first multiplayer FPS, which has to be the absolute best video game experience I think I've ever had...

So in short, Doom is better, but Wolf3D started it all!! and it deserves points for that...

[Thunderbird]

Cupcakus said:

W3D WAS FPS!!!!!

Doom was of course technically better, all the maps in Wolf3D are composed of square rooms... and if I remember correctly, no ceiling textures...  I only played the PC version, as I never owned a Jaguar, but kiling hitler in the third episode gave a kid a joy like no other...

Doom had cooler weapons, and wayyyyy better maps/lighting and of course was the very first multiplayer FPS, which has to be the absolute best video game experience I think I've ever had...

So in short, Doom is better, but Wolf3D started it all!! and it deserves points for that...

DOOM! is responsible for the revolution in FPS games which is still felt today. Wolf was NOT the first FPS ever invented, nor was it the first game to offer the player that type of play.

DOOM! Wasn't the first Mult-Player game of this type either. MIDI-MAZE on the ST was out long before DOOM! but it had Multi-Player Mode, AND it had an "engine" very sililar to Wolf 3D's.

I recall games like Dungeon Master on the ST being similar (albiet slow) and even games on the 8-bit like Way-Out and Lucas Art's The Eidolon were FPS type games about a decade before DOOM!

[Rhindle The Red]

Just F.Y.I:

The Legacy of id 3D shooters
Hovertank 3D
Catacomb 3D
Wolfenstein 3D
Spear of Destiny
Doom
Doom II
Ultimate Doom
Final Doom
Quake
Quake II
Quake III: Arena
Quake III: Team Arena
Return to Castle Wolfenstein

Did I miss any?

id also gets credit for their engines on Blake Stone, Rise of the Triad, Heretic, Hexen, Strife, Hexen II, and many more.

There were, of course first person games before Hovercraft 3D, (when did Faceball 2000 come out?) and there's no doubt that Wolfenstein 3D laid the groundwork for what was to come, but Doom has always been the true beginning of the phenomenon of the FPS. FPS's will forever be compared to it and it stands alongside titles like Pong, Pac-Man, and Super Mario Bros. as a giant of the industry.

[size=9]Well, I haven't figured out those crazy skybirds yet but I give you fifty to one odds the police have figured out that cemetery thing by now.

[Thunderbird]

[quote=Rhindle The Red]Just F.Y.I:

[u]The Legacy of id 3D shooters[/u]
Hovertank 3D
Catacomb 3D
Wolfenstein 3D
Spear of Destiny
Doom
Doom II
Ultimate Doom
Final Doom
Quake
Quake II
Quake III: Arena
Quake III: Team Arena
Return to Castle Wolfenstein

Did I miss any?

id also gets credit for their engines on Blake Stone, Rise of the Triad, Heretic, Hexen, Strife, Hexen II, and many more.

There were, of course first person games before Hovercraft 3D, (when did Faceball 2000 come out?) and there's no doubt that Wolfenstein 3D laid the groundwork for what was to come, but Doom has always been the true beginning of the phenomenon of the FPS. FPS's will forever be compared to it and it stands alongside titles like Pong, Pac-Man, and Super Mario Bros. as a giant of the industry.

[size=9]Well, I haven't figured out those crazy skybirds yet but I give you fifty to one odds the police have figured out that cemetery thing by now.


You forgot MIDI-MAZE and others I'm sure I don't know about.

These "definitive lists" I don't think are going to ever be complete. There are just too many games and systems out there for anyone to know them all.

[Goochman]

Not to mention stuff on the 8bits as well - Rescue on Fractulus prob fits in here as well - you could shoot at stuff

Way Out as previously mentioned, Ultima II even had a 3d maze portion to it - though no shooting

Could you even get into games like Battlezone?

[Thunderbird]

Goochman said:

Not to mention stuff on the 8bits as well - Rescue on Fractulus prob fits in here as well - you could shoot at stuff

Way Out as previously mentioned, Ultima II even had a 3d maze portion to it - though no shooting

Could you even get into games like Battlezone?

There was another one of those fractal games from Lucas Arts which you drove around in a tank like thing and there were wrecked space ships and stuff to search. I can't remember the name. It would be the same thing as well.

[jaysmith2000]

Thunderbird said:

Goochman said:

Not to mention stuff on the 8bits as well - Rescue on Fractulus prob fits in here as well - you could shoot at stuff

Way Out as previously mentioned, Ultima II even had a 3d maze portion to it - though no shooting

Could you even get into games like Battlezone?

There was another one of those fractal games from Lucas Arts which you drove around in a tank like thing and there were wrecked space ships and stuff to search. I can't remember the name. It would be the same thing as well.

Don't forget Xbots for the LYNX!

[z28in82]

I was always partial to Wolf 3-D over doom. I remember house spent on my PC playing wolf and was more into gaming consoles when Doom made it's mark on the gaming world. I did eventually play doom and it was fun but nothing beats the rush of memories that I get when I see the Blue screen with the PG-13 rating while Wold 3-D was loading.

Yes Doom may have been a better game graphics wise and weapons wise, but if all we are talking about is graphics and weapons I was a fan of Duke Nukem for that stuff. Yeah yeah yeah the half naked babes didn't hurt either.

just my thoughts

[Thunderbird]

z28in82 said:

I was always partial to Wolf 3-D over doom. I remember house spent on my PC playing wolf and was more into gaming consoles when Doom made it's mark on the gaming world. I did eventually play doom and it was fun but nothing beats the rush of memories that I get when I see the Blue screen with the PG-13 rating while Wold 3-D was loading.

Yes Doom may have been a better game graphics wise and weapons wise, but if all we are talking about is graphics and weapons I was a fan of Duke Nukem for that stuff. Yeah yeah yeah the half naked babes didn't hurt either.

just my thoughts

Duke Nukem 3D had quite a lot more fun factor and humor than Doom did, and I think I liked it more, but it came after Doom, so the developers had the groundwork of Doom to build on.

[Kripto]

What about D&D Treasure of Tarmin for intellivision? This was the first FPS I encountered. I'm sure some computer-based game was first though..

[Flojomojo]

jaysmith2000 said:

For those of you who are "in the know", John Romero and Julian Eggebrecht once were fighting over an Atari 7800 auction I had up.  The winner in the end was Julian at $1000.00 (quadruple what I had paid for the package), I delivered it personally to his Factor 5 offices (where he told me about a very secret upcoming Star Wars game for the Nintendo 64, which turned out to be Rogue Squadron).  Ahhh, the good 'ole days....

That was you, Jason? I remember that auction -- very cool to see it go up like that. Seeing Rogue behind the scenes must have been awesome.

Both Doom and Wolf3D are great, and I would hate to have to choose one over the other.

Wolf is so simplistic and Zen, it's almost like playing a VCS game. I liked the Jaguar version of the game, but it was waaaay to short. It was only about double the length of the shareware Mac version! I just got Wolf3D for my new 3DO, and it's clearly the better version. It has the same graphics, a CD soundtrack, but most importantly, TONS of levels. I think I'm going to sit down and pummel my way through as many of them as I can stand ... as soon as I finish HALO.

Doom on the Jaguar is in many ways a misssed opportunity. It would be great if the intermission music could be played during the game -- it was such a good mix. That said, it had great graphics, more color than the PSX version, a decent framerate, and lots of detail despite being the lowest-resolution Jaguar game available. And networking! Is there still an underground movement on to bring out the "better" version of Doom, with higher framerates and more graphical detail?

[Gunstar]

Flojomojo said:

Doom on the Jaguar is in many ways a misssed opportunity.  It would be great if the intermission music could be played during the game -- it was such a good mix.  That said, it had great graphics, more color than the PSX version, a decent framerate, and lots of detail despite being the lowest-resolution Jaguar game available.  And networking!  Is there still an underground movement on to bring out the "better" version of Doom, with higher framerates and more graphical detail?

Carl at Songbird productions bought or licensed the rights to the JagDoom engine from ID, and I think he is still planning on getting out a sequel at some point...Id even gave him their Jaguar development station! I agree that the intermission music is great, but after a while I usually end up turning off the music on games like this and go for the "total emersion" that I think music detracts from; If it were real, there wouldn't be any music! So I was never too disappointed in that. The only thing I was disappointed in was that they took out the end of level bosses in the Jag version and a few more levels would have been cool too, but it would have cost a LOT more to make a 6meg cart, a cd version would have been cool if Atari had lasted longer...I think JagDoom is the best version myself, although I've only ever played the PC and PSX versions...I plan on getting the 3DO version, but I've heard the frame-rate sucks on it and it's not full screen like JagDoom. Slightly higher res though...

[Flojomojo]

The PSX, Saturn, and GBA Doom (and maybe even the unofficial WinCE, Dreamcast, and NUON versions?) all use the WAD resources from JagDoom. That always made me smile.

There are better implementations of Doom for Windows now, with higher res, DirectX support, and mouselook, but there's something about Doom on a console. I remember the reviews at the time: "AND YOU DONT NEED A COMPUTER!!!!"

I've given up on Jag games because of the crazy high prices for new cartridge software, but it would be cool to hear about Carl's efforts. That's very cool that id gave him their stuff. They won't be using it, after all!

[Walter_J-64]

Gunstar wrote:

Quote

Jag version and a few more levels would have been cool too, but it would have cost a LOT more to make a 6meg cart, a cd version would have been cool if Atari had lasted longer

I would got any way 4Meg or 6Meg I think if they had customized Levels for the J-64 beside using the PC levels Higher resolution might been a possibilty and in game music could have been a possibilty to! But Carl is doing that!

Gunstar wrote:

Quote

The only thing I was disappointed in was that they took out the end of level bosses in the Jag version

I was disappointed in this as will

Are there any 6Meg carts?

[Thunderbird]

Walter_J-64 said:

Gunstar wrote:

Quote

Jag version and a few more levels would have been cool too, but it would have cost a LOT more to make a 6meg cart, a cd version would have been cool if Atari had lasted longer

I would got any way 4Meg or 6Meg I think if they had customized Levels for the J-64 beside using the PC levels Higher resolution might been a possibilty and in game music could have been a possibilty to! But Carl is doing that!

Gunstar wrote:

Quote

The only thing I was disappointed in was that they took out the end of level bosses in the Jag version

I was disappointed in this as will

Are there any 6Meg carts?

Id 'lost' all their compilers for the JagDoom project, so the only thing that exists is the shource code which nobody can run without the compilers. Even Jag experts have given up trying to work with it.

Since Doom is now open source, there have been many improved versions created. Any Jag developer could easily (over time) make a new improved version from the improved source. Id's Doom source is horribly undocumented.

Anyone making a new version would be a moron to start with the Jag version unless they found the tools and were planning something really boring like replacing the levels and textures and making an unimproved game. Even Minux can probably handle that!