418 replies to this topic

[Phredreeke]

They could make a giant whitelist of all software signed with the "exposed key", then refuse loading any software that's not either on the whitelist or signed with a new private key. That's what Nintendo did with the DSi.

Of course, an update doing that could be reverse engineered and patched to allow all software to run, since the PS3 encryption keys are known. The update would have to be signed with the "exposed key", because PS3s without it wouldn't have the new key.

Basically, Sony is left to obfuscation. Security by obscurity doesn't work in the long run, but it may be enough to calm worried worried shareholders and publishers.

[HammR25]

Yeah they mainly need to convince third party publishers they should still continue to develop for the PS3 instead of just going exclusively with the Xbox 360. Microsoft has to be loving this.

I also wonder if the Air Force will use this to hack their PS3s or if they've already worked out something else with Sony.

[Phredreeke]

Why would the air force need to hack their PS3s? They're already running linux on phat ps3s and it's not like they need to update them.

[Reaperman]

So, since the bluray keys have been compromised (according to earlier posts) is it legal to publish your own unlicensed software or is there something else still in the way?

[HammR25]

Phredreeke, on Sun Jan 9, 2011 4:24 PM, said:

Why would the air force need to hack their PS3s? They're already running linux on phat ps3s and it's not like they need to update them.

Because they won't run forever:

Quote

We checked in with the Air Force Research Laboratory, which noted its disappointment with the Sony decision. "We will have to continue to use the systems we already have in hand," the lab told Ars, but "this will make it difficult to replace systems that break or fail. The refurbished PS3s also have the problem that when they come back from Sony, they have the firmware (gameOS) and it will not allow Other OS, which seems wrong. We are aware of class-action lawsuits against Sony for taking away this option on systems that use to have it."

[SlowCoder]

It seems to me that the Air Force would be able to come to some sort of deal with Sony to obtain the proper firmware. We are talking about a military organization, not some guy's personal server project. Besides, I'm sure the AF knows where Sony Japan lives.

[Underball]

Game Over.

GeoHot and the members of team failoverflow have been served with restraining orders and lawsuits by Sony.

Sony wouldn't take it this far if they could patch this hole.

Smartest thing they did was to NOT release a backup manager for this exploit. It might just kill the lawsuit, since no copyrights have actually been infringed by it.

Should be interesting to see how it all turns out.

[Bruce Tomlin]

Underball, on Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:10 PM, said:

Game Over.

GeoHot and the members of team failoverflow have been served with restraining orders and lawsuits by Sony.

Sony wouldn't take it this far if they could patch this hole.

Smartest thing they did was to NOT release a backup manager for this exploit. It might just kill the lawsuit, since no copyrights have actually been infringed by it.

Should be interesting to see how it all turns out.

Ha ha. The cat's out, so they put a restraining order on the bag?

Nice one, Sony.

[madmax2069]

A restraining order and what else SONY can legally do wont stop this from happening. All it is is a delay of the inevitable.

[HammR25]

I like how they're invoking the DMCA because most if not all the guys in that group are from countries other than the US.

[Reaperman]

Underball, on Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:10 PM, said:

Game Over.

GeoHot and the members of team failoverflow have been served with restraining orders and lawsuits by Sony.

It's always a good to piss off hackers. They'll just stop sticking their names on their work.

If Sony would simply concentrate on producing a better product, I don't think they'd have to worry. PS1/PS2 games were pirated all over the place and I don't remember them not selling because of it. PS3/PSP is more about EULA's, AUP's, big business, and 'sticking it' directly to their fan base than it is about actual gaming. It's a shame since PS3 is a really great hardware platform, but it's been poorly managed from launch on.

Oh, and this is only the start of Sony's insane retaliation. Get ready for the 'genuine advantage'-like local file checks. A little privacy invasion before you go online. Don't worry, they'll make sure you agree to it first. It'll be buried somewhere in the middle of the latest PSN user agreement.

[Underball]

madmax2069, on Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:47 PM, said:

A restraining order and what else SONY can legally do wont stop this from happening. All it is is a delay of the inevitable.

The encryption key is already available in a billion places on the net, as are the dev tools for signing apps with said key. That Key is hardcoded into every system out there right now. It can't be undone or changed permanently.

As of now, the key hasn't been used for piracy. Just for homebrew and demonstrational purposes.

Sony should wise up and allow homebrew. If they don't, they'd better got out of the console business. They're done. Stick a fork in them.

[Bruce Tomlin]

The genie is already out of the bottle.

Edited by Bruce Tomlin, Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:43 AM.

[mimo]

http://www.techtree....114114-585.html
it looks like piracy has started already

[cimerians]

This only makes publishers use more DRM methods. It also seals the fate of video games as we know it now that all the consoles have been hacked.

EVERYTHING will be either streamed or downloaded eventually. It will be about getting things out of the hands of users. "Ok we cant trust anyone. So they all can go down in the boat".

I'm all for sticking it to publishers like UBIsoft or Capcom when they pull tricks out of their ass. I'll rip their game and play it if they do stuff like that. Most people I know of like me are honest and pay for the titles. Also, Sony could try giving us a damn demo for games and not expect us to buy games blind. Its a lot better now but I still see some games without demo's.

Its a neverending cycle though, maybe it will never end.

The bastard slob who lives down the street who pirates games and mods Xbox's for people in his home town multiplies like a roach across the world and thats where the problem lies.

The xbox 360 was hacked fairly quickly IMO and the burning of discs rained down early in the Xbox 360's life. Microsoft is still around and Sony will be too.

So will the roaches.

[potatohead]

If they do tie everything to a online tether, I think it will be a good thing for retro / home brew / indie gaming. Basically, people will not pay the already high prices for things that are a PITA.

So, if it goes online, there will be nice options for people, and probably a good cost. They need to sell the things anyway, and with retro / indie / home brew out there, it's not like they are the only game in town. Some real market competition is always a good thing.

When people get burned, sales will drop, things will change. The things people do want to play will get played, and there are a lot of cool things to be done with digital distribution. Not as good as having media, but it's not the end of the world either, so long as there are options for everybody, sellers and buyers alike.

Heck, if it were me, I think I would add used sales to the digital marketplace. Somebody makes a bad call, and lists it to capture a nice chunk of their purchase. They buy something else, and the next buyer sees a (stock) available used, and can buy that instead for a nice deal. Maybe they didn't spend as much, so they go ahead and buy a new title too. Truth is, this could make more money.

Right now, if two people buy new games, not happy, and sell them used, the publisher only gets the margin on two new games.

In the scenario I just outlined, they get the two new game margins, plus the lower cost of not shipping media, and they get some margin on the used game purchases, and potentially margins on additional new titles, because that same person who could pay $60, might just pay $80, or $90, and get a two-fer, one used, one new.

They've got choices, and everybody knows it.

For those that really just want media, somebody will step up and do it. All comes down to demand really.

The other positive on this thing is most new titles I've played through are not something I would keep in the longer term. Collecting new titles won't get cool for a long time anyway. And if that's not possible, retro will just grow.

A open PS3 means eventually some nice new Dreamcast style action! That's not a bad thing, and I'm gonna score another PS3, just to have one running. The value of it went way up, and I buy new games, and I would so totally buy home brew / indie titles in a second, just like I do DC today. Win-win, from where I stand.

Of all the new titles, I think I've wanted to play 1/8 of them at most, and I wanted to keep almost zero. The kinds of games I keep are things like SSX, which is always playable, and a whole lot of what is out there is a once or twice run through, and next. Who cares about owning that crap?

Edit: What basically happened with the last round of consoles / piracy / ugliness is I just played a whole hell of a lot less. This happened years ago with commercial software. There is enough open source software out there that I buy NOTHING. Inkscape, Gimp, Open Office, etc... get it done nicely for personal / hobby stuff, even pro stuff. I do all my classroom documentation in those packages now anyway.

The people can and will make their own games. This will happen like it has for commercial software.

So, just play less, and expand retro / indie / home brew, and call it good. That way, when something new is really great, it's no problem to buy that one, play it and have a great time, not worried about the money. And that's the best part, IMHO. When a big effort results in a great game, people will buy. What will probably diminish is the "me-too" titles, and license crap that really is often the same game, different skin. I don't buy those, and won't ever. Now, Square puts out a epic, no sweat! I'll pay up and have a great time. When I'm done, I'm kind of done, waiting for the next one. More good, compelling games, or a bigger retro / indie / home brew scene will result, and both are fine.

And that leaves dollars for other things. Buying home brew is one. Investing in hobby gaming is another. Instead of buying new games, I bought a bunch of cool electronics gear, and know what? I've had a great time, and I learned some great stuff. Others are doing it, so there are games to play too. It's older school, simple stuff, but it's fun.

Let them do this. I think they lose, unless it's a compelling arrangement, IMHO. No worries here on any of it.

Edited by potatohead, Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:48 AM.

[HammR25]

I guarantee Sony looks at this as being 10 times worse than someone modifying their PS1 or PS2 to run pirated games because pirates will be able to sell their copies on street corners and they'll play on anyone's console without them modifying it. It'll give the pirates a much bigger market, especially in Asia where this sort of thing happens all the time with movies.

[potatohead]

But who really cares?

Sure, Sony is pissed, as are some of the developers and publishers. However, they DO have options. Rather than litigate crappy business models, maybe they should be exercising them.

And I pirate nothing. I just want the console access to play / tinker / build. Maybe we get a PS3 home brew / indie scene now. All good.

[Underball]

All I want from this hack is the ability to run home brew and emulators, and a backup manager that will run my owned ps3 blu-ray games from the hard disc to cut down on load times Likei have with my ps2 softmod. I don't want to pirate games at all.

[mimo]

I want a media center like xbmc, oh and a bunch of emulators. Then I can retire my xbox.
Not wanting to pirate anything either, very little of the current gen games interest me at all.
PS2 BC would be good too

[Reaperman]

As long as we're trotting out wishlists, OpenGL would be hot. Access to the 3d hardware is the big advantage to 'game mode' vs the older 'other os' mode, yes?

[keilbaca]

mimo, on Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:41 PM, said:

I want a media center like xbmc, oh and a bunch of emulators. Then I can retire my xbox.
Not wanting to pirate anything either, very little of the current gen games interest me at all.
PS2 BC would be good too

http://slumz.boxden....ts-cfw-1475226/

Quick search brings up an already signed version.

I see all emulators becoming signed by the end of the week.

[mimo]

I see a lot of PSN games being pirated

[HammR25]

I'm thinking there's going to be lots of torrents of games as well. A blu-ray burner sounds like a great backup investment.

[Shannon]

Bottom line.. Sony is screwed bigtime!

GeoHot may soon becom GeoNot!

Two members of the "Epic Fail" group were named in the lawsuit.

This is going to get interesting..

Edited by Shannon, Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:50 AM.