269 replies to this topic

[Godzilla]

funny how things change:

(old message,
<
Thomas Jentzsch
THRUST and JAMMED maker

Posted: 04 Dec 2001 20:58 Post subject: Game Creators Please Read

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Randy is selling my games for over a year now, and I had no problems with him at all. I'll stay with him

He is definitely doing the community a very BIG favour!
>

i dont really see as how tj has a leg to stand on, really, its fan modification. its not like hes paying for the original games he's modifying. in the case of games hes created i understand that. I mean this is all technically illegal, and we are just getting away on a grey area of something unenforced, because its such a small market that the company bean counters don't see a need to do anything about it yet. but infighting over who sells your illegal hacks is just absurd. I assume you make these with the hopes that others will be able to play games they otherwise wouldn't, for the community. The more people selling it, the more your goals are achieved.

and just in an unrealted note, I've ordered hudreds upon hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise from hozer, and recieved it all within a timely fashion, and my thrust dc+ which i paid for about half a year ago (from TJ) I still have yet to see. Action speaks louder than words imho.

[StanJr]

OK FOR THE LAST TIME.

This is about common decency and courtesy. Thomas asked Randy to NOT sell his stuff. Randy said "bite my hairy douchebag" (or something like that = NO), and kept on doing it. There is NO legal recourse, nor a need for one. Randy is either a stand up guy and does what is asked of him out of courtesy, or he's a dicknose (in this case) who does not care about what others want and will do what is best for him. That is all.

[moycon]

Quote

funny how things change

Yeah I see the light now that you brought this to my attention Godzilla, It's very rare indeed that anyone on this earth re-evaluate a person or a situation and then change their mind.



Again... this is for the tards who didn't get it the 1st 12 times it was brought up.... I don't believe if you read through the thread this has anything do do with the legal aspect of whats going on...

But please people feel free to bring it up again so we can waste time posting back and forth about the same thing.

[moycon]

Curse that Stan Jr... He's always one step ahead of me!!!

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Godzilla said:

funny how things change:

No, not funny at all!

My comment only shows how positve I was about Randy and therefore how much disappointed I am now.

Of course, you never had to change your mind, did you?

[Alex]

Godzilla said:

funny how things change:

(old message,
<
Thomas Jentzsch
THRUST and JAMMED maker

 Posted: 04 Dec 2001 20:58    Post subject: Game Creators Please Read      

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Randy is selling my games for over a year now, and I had no problems with him at all. I'll stay with him  

He is definitely doing the community a very BIG favour!  
>

i dont really see as how tj has a leg to stand on, really, its fan modification. its not like hes paying for the original games he's modifying. in the case of games hes created i understand that. I mean this is all technically illegal, and we are just getting away on a grey area of something unenforced, because its such a small market that the company bean counters don't see a need to do anything about it yet. but infighting over who sells your illegal hacks is just absurd. I assume you make these with the hopes that others will be able to play games they otherwise wouldn't, for the community. The more people selling it, the more your goals are achieved.  

and just in an unrealted note, I've ordered hudreds upon hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise from hozer, and recieved it all within a timely fashion, and my thrust dc+ which i paid for about half a year ago (from TJ) I still have yet to see. Action speaks louder than words imho.

This just goes to show how far Randy pushed Thomas. In the beginning, after Randy said he did not want us selling the Xype games, Thomas told us that he was 100% decided that we would not be selling their games, and the issue was dead. He told me the answer would be different if Randy had said yes, but Randy wanted it all for himself.

It was only after Thomas became aware of Randy's other activities and Randy lied to and insulted Thomas, that Thomas had enough and asked him to stop selling all his work. Thomas has never claimed any legal ownership. It's a matter of courtesy and respect, which Randy has demonstrated a clear lack of.

And as for Thrust, Thomas only programmed it but had nothing to do with the sales or delivery. He has gone out of his way to help people get their games even though he has no real control over it. I can only imagine that Thomas is far more upset about the whole Thrust+ situation than anyone else, because his name gets dragged through the mud for it when he doesn't control the situation.

[ccc---]

I think we have to distinguish between Thomas' homebrews and his hacks before bashing around here and in some way I agree with Godzilla's opinion.

When Thomas tells Randy to stop selling Thomas' very own creations then Randy has to do so.

When Thomas tells Randy to stop selling Thomas' hacks ... I don't know. Noone beside the legal owner of the code has any rights to do something with those games, including altering and selling. As long as Randy sells them and the legal owner doesn't do anything against that ... come on, why should anyone else bash him then? Isn't that childish? ... *shrug*

[pitfallaimee]

Let's say, I took a copy of Edward Hopper's Nighthawks and modified it in some way that was amusing or interesting to a new group of people, and posted it here for everyone to enjoy. I do not have the legal right to the original work, but the modifications exist only because I invested time and effort into making them. Now say, someone takes that image and sells prints of it without getting permission from me. I may not have a legal right to make that person stop, but perhaps we can agree that it would not be moral for a person to profit from someone else's work without that person's permission.

[Godzilla]

yes, just to clarify, I am talking about the hacks.

And applying ones morals to another is pointless. Everyone has their own personal feelings, and morals. That is why we have the law, it tells us what in our society crosses the line.

Anything else is just childish slapping.

Morally, I agree that if TJ asks person X to remove his illegal hacks, they should. But i've also been alive long enough to know that the world doesn't work that way. (It's not like randy is rollin in dough from this,)

And I am sorry if i mis-associating my half year + delay with TJ when it is in fact Jah-Fish.

Of course we all have to change our minds, TJ, that's why I said 'funny how things change' Although in this case, I think it's more actually sad how things change, but I was being sarcastic, as I am wont to do.

[Godzilla]

pitfallaimee said:

Let's say, I took a copy of Edward Hopper's Nighthawks and modified it in some way that was amusing or interesting to a new group of people, and posted it here for everyone to enjoy. I do not have the legal right to the original work, but the modifications exist only because I invested time and effort into making them. Now say, someone takes that image and sells prints of it without getting permission from me. I may not have a legal right to make that person stop, but perhaps we can agree that it would not be moral for a person to profit from someone else's work without that person's permission.

it was immoral for you to illegally modify someone else's work in the first place, hence you are standing on a broken table, if you see my point.

[pitfallaimee]

Godzilla said:

pitfallaimee said:

Let's say, I took a copy of Edward Hopper's Nighthawks and modified it in some way that was amusing or interesting to a new group of people, and posted it here for everyone to enjoy. I do not have the legal right to the original work, but the modifications exist only because I invested time and effort into making them. Now say, someone takes that image and sells prints of it without getting permission from me. I may not have a legal right to make that person stop, but perhaps we can agree that it would not be moral for a person to profit from someone else's work without that person's permission.

it was immoral for you to illegally modify someone else's work in the first place, hence you are standing on a broken table, if you see my point.

So, because my act was immoral, that makes it okay for someone else to profit by my immoral act?

[ccc---]

pitfallaimee said:

Let's say, I took a copy of Edward Hopper's Nighthawks and modified it in some way that was amusing or interesting to a new group of people, and posted it here for everyone to enjoy. I do not have the legal right to the original work, but the modifications exist only because I invested time and effort into making them. Now say, someone takes that image and sells prints of it without getting permission from me. I may not have a legal right to make that person stop, but perhaps we can agree that it would not be moral for a person to profit from someone else's work without that person's permission.

But the guy who sells your hack makes way more profit from Edward Hopper's work than from your "work". So it's up to Edward Hopper to claim, not on you.

When you are doing a hack you have to be aware that you are doing something "illegal" and you have to be aware not having any rights to claim when someone else does something with your illegal work (i.e. selling it) that you don't like ... Your invested time and effort is kinda worthless ... So Mr. Hopper could talk about bad morale, but not the person who hacked Mr. Hopper's work ...

[sku_u]

Yes, burning ROMs and hacking games is illegal. It is an unenforced grey area. Jaywalking is illegal as well and where I come from an unenforced grey area of the law. What's the point?? If you read the thread you'd see that no one is arguing the legalities of this situation.

[Scott Stilphen]

Godzilla said:

Morally, I agree that if TJ asks person X to remove his illegal hacks, they should. But i've also been alive long enough to know that the world doesn't work that way. (It's not like randy is rollin in dough from this,)

And this is exactly why it doesn't work that way....because of people like Randy.

As for how much $ he's made in the past 8 years, we can only speculate. According to Joe's figures, he sold Randy approx. 1,435 pcbs for $1,790 in a span of 14 months. His cart prices ranged from $11 (any non-royalty games, which were the majority) up to $25. What would he pay for EPROM and hex inverter chips (in bulk), another $1k-$2k? Add in cost of getting cart casings, label materials (paper, ink), and misc items (solder, s&h, etc). To make say 1,500 games might cost him $4k-$5k, plus his time to make them (and after 8 years, I'm sure he can crank them out pretty quick). So we're talking $3 per cart. Even if we double that, he's still making about $6 per cart or more, which translates to about $9k. There's probably other costs I'm overlooking, but even if it's half that, that's not too bad for a "non-profit" hobby/business.

Bottom line is, he was making $ off of Thomas' work. I don't know the details of his royalty program, but one of the $25 titles he was selling was Thrust . When you have a nice little niche market like that to yourself, and suddenly other competitors enter the field, greed can motivate you to make some immoral choices.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Godzilla said:

And applying ones morals to another is pointless. Everyone has their own personal feelings, and morals. That is why we have the law, it tells us what in our society crosses the line.

But that doesn't mean, I have to stay quiet and accept that kind of moral.

Quote

Anything else is just childish slapping.

Well, then I must be childish. I still think, we don't need a law in our hobby. And if we should, something went wrong.

Quote

...but I was being sarcastic, as I am wont to do.

Ok.

[Inky]

First off, I'd be curious as to how Rob Fulop thinks about the trackball Missle Command hack. I don't think he'd be too plussed about it, but I think it would be interesting to hear his perspective on this debate (if he hasn't already talked about it. This thread grows so much that I know I've missed some nuances)

Anyhoo, let's add another dimension here... A few years back the Supreme Court of the US said that parody is fair use, so Weird Al can take the music and parody it, or other artists can use samples. Given that, there are a number of hacks that are considered parody, none other than my own Pac-Law and Beanie Baby Bash. I would think that the decision would apply in the case of parody rom hacks, especially if no money was changing hands..

But we're not talking law here. All we are talking about is that A asked B not to do something. B did it anyway, and A is pissed. The situation IS THAT SIMPLE.

Godzilla. I don't want you to bash my head in. If you were to do it after I told you no, do I have a right to get pissed? Yes I do.

Same situation here. It's really that simple.

[somePUNK]

ok i'm tuning into the convesation i think that thomas has every right to stop people from selling the work he has done. If i got up off my lazy ass and did a hack whcih is work right than i have right to say who distribute it. It dosen't amtter that the orginal code belonged to someone else thomas made it his own and good for him now he has the right to that hack, and can give to whom ever he wants, and sell it anyway he wants.

[StanJr]

Godzilla said:

And applying ones morals to another is pointless. Everyone has their own personal feelings, and morals. That is why we have the law, it tells us what in our society crosses the line.

Anything else is just childish slapping.

Morally, I agree that if TJ asks person X to remove his illegal hacks, they should. But i've also been alive long enough to know that the world doesn't work that way. (It's not like randy is rollin in dough from this,)

Yes and since Thomas disagreed with Randy's morals (and yours?), he put it to public debate, and it seems that MOST of the people here disagree with Randy's code of business ethics. I know I do. I think Randy's morality in this instance is poop, selfish, inconsiderate poop.

FOR THE FINAL TIME, THERE IS NO LEGAL GROUND ON THIS ISSUE.

[Scott Stilphen]

Atari 7800.com said:

Scott Stilphen said:

I stopped dealing with Randy a couple years ago, when I got a copy of Shooting Arcade (Atari) from him.  The game would run, but it had some graphics glitches,  and always crashed after clearing a few screens.  When I told him about it, he said the 16k circuit boards he was using were not designed properly.  He offered to refund my $, but my point was that fact should have been stated up front.  He immediately became defensive, saying the refund offer was "good enough".  And up until now there STILL isn't any mention of that problem on his site.  Unbelievable.

Yep... that's how it works. So when we release a *working* version of this game, please dont bitch and moan about it working only on the 7800.

If you state that up front to people, then they have no reason to complain, otherwise that's not how it's supposed to work.

[JCroniger]

Alex said:

And as for Thrust, Thomas only programmed it but had nothing to do with the sales or delivery. He has gone out of his way to help people get their games even though he has no real control over it. I can only imagine that Thomas is far more upset about the whole Thrust+ situation than anyone else, because his name gets dragged through the mud for it when he doesn't control the situation.

I agree with Alex. Thomas got involved and expediated the shipment of my game. It's not his fault that it took 7 months to complete the order. He didn't have to do anything, but I know first hand he did all that he could to fix the problems. I for one, am very grateful.

[CPUWIZ]

[Cupcakus]

Godzilla said:

yes, just to clarify, I am talking about the hacks.

And applying ones morals to another is pointless. Everyone has their own personal feelings, and morals. That is why we have the law, it tells us what in our society crosses the line.

Anything else is just childish slapping.

You are right... everyone does have their own Morals... and Randy's are not at the level that I feel feel secure in doing with buisness with him. That is the issue... that is why everyone no longer wants to do buisness with him. His unethical character makes me feel like I cannot trust him with my money or copyrighted works.

This is not "Childish slapping" it is a fact. No one is pressing their moral standards on to anyone. However I and the majority of the people here, will not do buisness with someone who's morals include what Randy has done. (In reference to the hacks only).

[cvga]

I haven't seen anyone else with this opinion yet but I think the issue boils down to how the rom was released. If the rom was posted freely (by the programmer) with the intention of allowing anyone who wanted an opportunity to download and play it then I don't see a problem with someone charging a modest fee to put the rom on a cart. To me it's certainly worth the $5 or $6 Randy was making to not have to build a cart myself. If the homebrewer released the rom freely, I can't see why he/she would care if I played via emulator, cuttle cart, or by actual cart regardless of whether it was a hack or original program. If we're using the painting analogy I see Randy more as framing a print that has been stacked in a pile with a sign that says "take one".

However, if the programmer has not released the rom, then I think it would be wrong for someone to offer to make carts for it even if it is a hack of another game. I would not buy a copy of a commercial game for this reason. I also wouldn't buy a copy of a homebrew from someone not paying the programmer a royalty if they requested one but that's not the case in this scenario.

I'd like to think this is stemming from something else that might be a misunderstanding. Randy has been around forever and has had a tremendous positive impact on the classic community. I've purchased lots of carts from him (EdTris, Video Time Machine, Minesweeper, Euchre, Skeleton, Power Off and more) and he's always treated me well. In fact, the last time I ordered, Randy was going out of town and mailed my carts to me before he received my payment. I can't help but feel that Randy is still a good guy and it made me feel bad to see how quickly people turned on him.

That said, I don't think Thomas or Atari Age are bad guys either. Thomas is not only an incredible programmer but I've seen him help tons of other people on the Stella list. I don't know him but he also seems like a nice guy. I also think he's handled this thread well. It's obvious that he's the one upset with Randy but he displayed way more class than some of the people who are unaffected.

As I tell my kids, just because X is mad at Y doesn't mean that you can't still be friends with both X and Y. I don't see why this had to be an all-or-nothing deal. Just as I wouldn't buy a copy of a commercial game from Randy, I wouldn't buy a homebrew that I knew the author didn't want him to sell although I think it's Randy's choice whether he wants to sell it or not as long as the virtual "take one" sign was put out.

[JerryG]

Quote

and just in an unrealted note, I've ordered hudreds upon hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise from hozer, and recieved it all within a timely fashion, and my thrust dc+ which i paid for about half a year ago (from TJ) I still have yet to see. Action speaks louder than words imho.

I second the motion because you just hit a sore spot. I also have ordered hundres of dollars of items from Randy several times and always gotten prompt quality service. On the other hand, over six months ago I ordered and paid for Thrust Plus. To date I've gotten nothing! Not even the coutrsey of a reply to my requests as to what is up with the delay or an answer to my question as to whether I'll ever get #23!

Thomas, perhaps you could pause for a moment or two to tell me if I and the rest of us in my position are totally screwed or if there is any intent to ever ship what was paid for. Please forgive me if I sound a little ticked at the moment but quite frankly Randy has never shafted me out of a cart, let alone a $60 cart!

IMHO, if a game or Hack is released to the community that means anyone should be free to make it and use or sell it, not just those the author isn't fueding with at any given time. We can argue about it all we want but Randy is not selling the game, he is selling a service. It costs the same $11 bucks for any 2 or 4k cart regardless of title or rarity unless he is paying a royalty to someone. Since the hacks were released for "free" there is no extra charge.

I don't think this was a set of issues that should have been brought to the community as a whole, it would have been better settled between the parties involved or at least laid to rest in peace privately.

JerryG

[Cupcakus]

JerryG said:

Quote

and just in an unrealted note, I've ordered hudreds upon hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise from hozer, and recieved it all within a timely fashion, and my thrust dc+ which i paid for about half a year ago (from TJ) I still have yet to see. Action speaks louder than words imho.

I second the motion because you just hit a sore spot. I also have ordered hundres of dollars of items from Randy several times and always gotten prompt quality service. On the other hand, over six months ago I ordered and paid for Thrust Plus. To date I've gotten nothing! Not even the coutrsey of a reply to my requests as to what is up with the delay or an answer to my question as to whether I'll ever get #23!

Thomas, perhaps you could pause for a moment or two to tell me if I and the rest of us in my position are totally screwed or if there is any intent to ever ship what was paid for. Please forgive me if I sound a little ticked at the moment but quite frankly Randy has never shafted me out of a cart, let alone a $60 cart!

IMHO, if a game or Hack is released to the community that means anyone should be free to make it and use or sell it, not just those the author isn't fueding with at any given time. We can argue about it all we want but Randy is not selling the game, he is selling a service. It costs the same $11 bucks for any 2 or 4k cart regardless of title or rarity unless he is paying a royalty to someone. Since the hacks were released for "free" there is no extra charge.

I don't think this was a set of issues that should have been brought to the community as a whole, it would have been better settled between the parties involved or at least laid to rest in peace privately.

JerryG

You better read the whole story before you shoot your mouth off... the whole "service" bullshit was killed a long time ago... It didn't work for Napster, and it's not going to work with Randy. If Thomas never made those hacks, then Randy could not be profiting from them period...

I can see how it could easily be interpreted that a freely available binary image may seem like it's OK to sell. But ethically you have to give the developer credit. If the author wishes you to stop selling his game.. for ANY reason... you have a moral obligation to respect his wishes.... for you owe that respect to him... because without him you would not even have that game to sell in the first place. So you owe the $20, $30 or whatever amount of money you made from said software to the time and effort the author put forth in that game... and as such that developer deserves your respect.

Am I wrong?

Thomas' reason for asking Randy to stop could be wrong... I don't care... Thomas asked and Randy didn't why is that so hard for people to grasp??? I just simply don't get it...

Please... can one of you that are defending Randy's actions please explain to me once and for all why you feel it is morally acceptable to steal an author's work like this??? I have yet to hear anything of the sort and I'm growing tired of arguing.

And I swear to god... if you bring up the legality of his actions I'm going to go on a murderous rampage... as StanJr and I have pointed out time and time again... I want you to explain why it is MORALLY acceptable... and if the law defines your morals I can see why you would condone such shady practices by Hozer.