269 replies to this topic

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Update!

Randy just replied to me. He assured me that he wouldn't sell my two homebrews without my permission.

I think I can believe him here, but then I really want that he removes the Ys behind my two games now.

But no change for my hacks or conversions yet.

[chrisr]

Bigferret said:

Thomas, sorry to hear about this.  I've never bought anything from Hozer, but you can rest assured that I never will now.  His attitude as well as actions prove he's not to be dealt with.

When I have a bit of extra cash to purchase Thrust, I'll do it here at AA.

The older I get, the less amazed I am at people with no honor or pride.

Thomas has refused to tell the whole story. How can anyone say they will never deal with him again, after hearing half the story from half the people? Thomas has shrouded the story in mystery. I have learned that half a story is no good. Thomas is a good guy, but sometimes anger and frustration can trick us into believing our own half truth. I will make no such boycott until I hear the whole story from both people.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

chrisr said:

Thomas has refused to tell the whole story.  How can anyone say they will never deal with him again, after hearing half the story from half the people?

It's not my fault, that the other "half" doesn't show up.

Quote

Thomas has shrouded the story in mystery.  I have learned that half a story is no good.  Thomas is a good guy, but sometimes anger and frustration can trick us into believing our own half truth.

Of course I am angry! But not frustrated, also because there are so many people supporting me now.

Quote

I will make no such boycott until I hear the whole story from both people.

So you seem to have learned from the last one.

But tell me, which kind of story would give him the right to do what he is doing now?

BTW: I stopped dealing with him, not he with me. That's my part of the "whole story". Maybe he will tell a different one... if he shows up.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

chrisr said:

These games didn't exist for Thomas to hack, had they not been originally created in the first place.

100% true! That's why I am not claiming any legal copyright or royalties.

But he could not sell those hacks without them originally being modified by me. (as wished and suggested by many Atari fans here on AtariAge)

[chrisr]

Thomas Jentzsch said:

chrisr said:

Thomas has refused to tell the whole story.  How can anyone say they will never deal with him again, after hearing half the story from half the people?

It's not my fault, that the other "half" doesn't show up.

Quote

Thomas has shrouded the story in mystery.  I have learned that half a story is no good.  Thomas is a good guy, but sometimes anger and frustration can trick us into believing our own half truth.

Of course I am angry! But not frustrated, also because there are so many people supporting me now.

Quote

I will make no such boycott until I hear the whole story from both people.

So you seem to have learned from the last one.
Cheap shot:)

But tell me, which kind of story would give him the right to do what he is doing now?

Lots of things. You may have had an informal agreement is just one example off the top of my head. Randy may already have many copies of each already built...

BTW: I stopped dealing with him, not he with me. That's my part of the "whole story". Maybe he will tell a different one... if he shows up.

Does Randy usually post here? Does he actively participate in the AA forums?

Here's the problem I have. Randy has been around a LONG time making games for the Atari community. Randy has made carts available to people which are out of reach for most people. Randy has dealt with other HB authors with no problems. Almost everyone who knows, or has dealt with Randy have nothing but good things to say about him. I need to hear the whole story.

[Inky]

When I released my hack Pac-Law a while back I was cheesed to find that he had it listed as a cart he is reproducing. Now it was a hack, and I didn't actually MIND that he did it. Just a little note saying he was going to do it would have been nice.

I actually did give him permission to release my second hack, Beanie Baby Bash.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

chrisr said:

Does Randy usually post here?  Does he actively participate in the AA forums?

No, and so I also posted this to RGVC, DP and [Stella] (linking to here). Being an active part of the community, he should have noticed already. And I'm sure, some people may have contacted him already too.

Quote

Here's the problem I have.  Randy has been around a LONG time making games for the Atari community. Randy has made carts available to people which are out of reach for most people.  Randy has dealt with other HB authors with no problems.  Almost everyone who knows, or has dealt with Randy have nothing but good things to say about him.

You cannot know what was going on behind the scenes during the last months, because we tried to solve the problems internally. Until now, when I saw no other chance anymore.
I know, some other people from the HB scene will backup me.

Quote

I need to hear the whole story.

Then you will hear two different stories. The one from me (and others) and the one from him.

[Tempest]

Quote

Here's the problem I have. Randy has been around a LONG time making games for the Atari community. Randy has made carts available to people which are out of reach for most people. Randy has dealt with other HB authors with no problems. Almost everyone who knows, or has dealt with Randy have nothing but good things to say about him. I need to hear the whole story.

People change. I know alot of people who have been invovled in the hobby for years who have turned into complete and utter jackasses.

I've heard Thomas's side of the story (the whole story) from several people I trust and I can honestly say Thomas is getting royaly shafted here. Randy knows Thomas has no legal rights to the games he hacked so Randy can do what he wants with them (although I'm not sure selling them is legal for him either). I've not delt with Randy before, but I've heard from several independant sources that he's really screwed alot of people over lately. I've also seen snippets of Randy's comments in reply, so I can say I have at least some of his side of the story.

What's up with Randy's change? I can't say for sure, but I'd bet that increased competition from AA and some other independant sources have forced him into a desperate situation. Sad to see people change for the worse but it does happen.

Just my two cents. Feel free to ignore me at any time.

Tempest

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Sorry, I missed some parts of Chris' mail.

chrisr said:

Cheap shot

True, you made it just too invitingly for me.

Quote

Lots of things.  You may have had an informal agreement is just one example off the top of my head.  Randy may already have many copies of each already built...

I can assure you and everyone that was not the problem. He is usually building the carts on demand, and after I quited dealing with him, he only had one single cart in stock.

BTW: The Acid Drop conversion was done only a few days ago, long after the split. But he put it also into his list.

[Cupcakus]

chrisr said:

Thomas has refused to tell the whole story.  How can anyone say they will never deal with him again, after hearing half the story from half the people?  Thomas has shrouded the story in mystery.  I have learned that half a story is no good.  Thomas is a good guy, but sometimes anger and frustration can trick us into believing our own half truth.  I will make no such boycott until I hear the whole story from both people.

The problem is the story and issue are dramatically simple! Thomas said no, Randy continues anyway. The only way Randy can contradict this story, is if he claims Thomas never did tell him no. Which would be a lie. What other story could he have? When the issue is this simple, you don't really need to hear the other side of the story... The other side is blatantly clear by just visiting his web site.

[mvigor]

Randy's web site(s) are down right now.

[Curt Vendel]

I didn't really read this thread as the message subject didn't really describe the discussion clearly...

I have to say that I stand 100% behind Thomas, this is just disgraceful to see someone being taken advantage of, to use and abuse an agreement and to literally 'take away' Thomas right to decide on his work being used.


Now on another issue, one where there isn't a grey area of hacking original source code not belonging to the homebrewer and rights to creation of modified code and such all aside, I wanted to point out something that unfortunately I can't check again about on the Hozer site right now as it seems down for some reason...

Wasn't Hozer also selling copies of Rob Fulop's Cubicolor and that game was only supposed to be a 100 piece run and I know I've spoken with Rob once a while ago (maybe things changed) but he didn't want a general release of his game, just the 100 pieces he made. So why is Hozer selling copies of that game too??? Does Rob Fulop know about this?


Curt

[Cupcakus]

My "sources" tell me Rob is now full aware Hozer was reproducing his Cubicolor cartridges without his permission...

[Albert]

Curt Vendel said:

Wasn't Hozer also selling copies of Rob Fulop's Cubicolor and that game was only supposed to be a 100 piece run and I know I've spoken with Rob once a while ago (maybe things changed) but he didn't want a general release of his game, just the 100 pieces he made.   So why is Hozer selling copies of that game too???  Does Rob Fulop know about this?

Although it looks like Randy took down many pages on his site, the individual pages for games are still there. Here is the link to Cubicolor:

Hozer Video: Cubicolor

We approached Rob Fulop about selling Cubicolor in our store. Because he released Cubicolor in limited numbers and wanted to keep them special to the collectors who bought them, he preferred that we do not sell it and we understand his position and respect his wishes. Rob was not aware that Randy is selling Cubicolor and did not give him permission to do so.

..Al

[sku_u]

It's a real shame to hear about all of these problems people are having with Hozer. I've bought many games from Hozer over the years.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Curt Vendel said:

...I wanted to point out something that unfortunately I can't check again about on the Hozer site right now as it seems down for some reason...

The index is down, but the directory is still there:

http://webpages.charter.net/hozervideo/ata...rts/conversions

You can see all 19 pages for the conversions (and also the time when they where added ).

[Curt Vendel]

Wow.... I thought he was selling Cubicolor, now to find out he's been doing it illegally, not good


Hey, now all of the links from Hozer site are gone, Error 403, access denied. Wow, I guess a certain someone is watching this thread very closely.....


Hmmm, oh wait now the site seems to be back up, not sure.... anybody else seeing his whole site up or down now?



Curt

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Curt Vendel said:

Hey, now all of the links from Hozer site are gone, Error 403, access denied.   Wow, I guess a certain someone is watching this thread very closely.....

Hm, still works for me.

Maybe there is some proxy between me and him. Or he is blocking certain IPs.

But I think (and hope) he is just revising his site.

[Cupcakus]

His site is up, but all of the index.html pages are missing... so all you get is a directory listing of his web site. It's been that way for hours, hopefully he is simply just revising his mistakes so this can be all over.

[Scott Stilphen]

I stopped dealing with Randy a couple years ago, when I got a copy of Shooting Arcade (Atari) from him. The game would run, but it had some graphics glitches, and always crashed after clearing a few screens. When I told him about it, he said the 16k circuit boards he was using were not designed properly. He offered to refund my $, but my point was that fact should have been stated up front. He immediately became defensive, saying the refund offer was "good enough". And up until now there STILL isn't any mention of that problem on his site. Unbelievable.

Btw, what's this all about??

[Atari 7800.com]

Ok, two things...


1.) It's not me!

2.) I am a law student studying in intellectual property. (Copyright law) ...if you need some free advice just say the word.


Best,

[Atari 7800.com]

Scott Stilphen said:

I stopped dealing with Randy a couple years ago, when I got a copy of Shooting Arcade (Atari) from him.  The game would run, but it had some graphics glitches,  and always crashed after clearing a few screens.  When I told him about it, he said the 16k circuit boards he was using were not designed properly.  He offered to refund my $, but my point was that fact should have been stated up front.  He immediately became defensive, saying the refund offer was "good enough".  And up until now there STILL isn't any mention of that problem on his site.  Unbelievable.

Yep... that's how it works. So when we release a *working* version of this game, please dont bitch and moan about it working only on the 7800. This game has been a real pain in the ass to me this week.

[joesmooth]

What Randy is doing is profiting off of other people's work without giving proper credit. For me, this comes down to a purely moral issue and not an issue of copyright. Thomas spent the time modifying the games - if he hadn't spent the time, the modified games would not exist. It seems to me like it would be in the best interest of the classic gaming community for Randy (and anyone else making and selling games) to respect the wishes of homebrew authors, as that will make the community flourish. Burning bridges and being hard-headed, sarcastic, and unreasonable does nothing but create problems.

I have had issues in the past regarding Randy and my Atari PCBs that I sell to make it easier for people to build homebrew carts. The issue has since been resolved, but I encountered an unwillingness to listen and extremely unprofessional business practices/ethics which I will not tolerate. Unfortunately, I chose not to partner with Randy anymore.

Randy has claimed multiple times that AtariAge has "convinced" people to sell games exclusively through them. From my point of view, this is far from the truth. For example, my choice for AA to exlusively sell SCSIcide was a result of the PCB issue with Randy mentioned above. Also, given their dedication to the community (I'm not talking about the store here, but the rest of the AA site and its resources), professional look and feel of AA's carts, the care they take in producing other people's homebrews, and their integrity, the choice now is really a no-brainer.

Joe Grand
2600 SCSIcide
2600/5200 PCBs

joe@pixelspast.com
http://www.pixelspast.com

[MegaManFan]

joesmooth said:

What Randy is doing is profiting off of other people's work without giving proper credit. For me, this comes down to a purely moral issue and not an issue of copyright. Thomas spent the time modifying the games - if he hadn't spent the time, the modified games would not exist.

Yup. That's it in a nutshell. And that's why I support the Hozer ban, until such time as Randy stops selling the TV conversions. Thomas clearly intended these games to be enjoyed by people in the countries where they were not available, and his time and effort were given to the public good and intended to be free. If Randy was giving away the TV hack carts for nothing, he'd be okay by me; but if he's profiting off both somebody else's hard work AND something that was intended to be free that's an ethical problem. It may not bother Randy morally, but it bothers ME that it doesn't bother him, and that is WHY I won't order any products from him now (I suspect a lot of AA users feel the same way).

Crossing Thomas was a huge mistake. I don't think he realizes he's just offended the very people who make up the most influential portion of his buying audience. Star Wars collectors have a code of ethics about buying/selling/trading/reproducing vintage items, so I don't see why Atari should be (or is) any different. AtariAge practices that ethical code by getting permission from the people who make hacks or conversions before releasing them. The Al's obviously know that the people who made them don't own the copyright, but they still apply a higher standard than "nobody owns it so I can get away with it" and that's precisely the reason they will continue to get my respect (and business) where Randy won't.

[Xot]

At the risk of drawing the ire of the entire board on me....

What's the difference between these hacks being offered on the site and all the previously commercial software being offered on the site? When I first heard of Hozer, everyone was singing his praises because he could, in effect, copy a cart. That way you could own virtually any cart you wanted without paying an insane amount of money. He made a deliberate effort not to promote them as protos or anything.

Thing is, people were grateful to have an opportunity to play carts they otherwise might never be able to. If, as his website once said, it's about getting games into the hands of gamers, then what's the problem here?

To put it another way - no one complained when it was Atari or Activision of Parker Bros.' software being duplicated. Now, because it's an individual instead of a company, it's suddenly not okay?

It seems to me the only difference here is scale.

I agree, it would be considerate of him to get permission from the authors/copyright owners whenever possible, but let's call a spade a spade here - he's not really doing anything NEW here. It's just WHO he's doing it to.

I'm not trying to be obtuse - if there's more to it that I'm missing please enlighten me. I've bought plenty of homebrews from both Hozer and Atari Age - and I intend to continue to do so until I'm given a compelling reason to do otherwise.

Does anyone have any solution as to how to stop this? I mean, anyone could, in theory, buy anyone's homebrew cart, dump it and reproduce it, right?