1160 replies to this topic

[GaryH917]

Underball, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:09 AM, said:

Wickeycolumbus, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:07 AM, said:

Whatever way you look at it, this attitude of secrecy is certainly not attracting customers or developers.

thank you.

Ok, youve been vindicated, we hear your point... Wait until its released then you can pass judgement at that point and time. Always one in a crowd...

[life_is_pleach]

Wickeycolumbus, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:07 AM, said:

Whatever way you look at it, this attitude of secrecy is certainly not attracting customers or developers.

Your're right. It's more like a Kindergarten here at the moment.

[GroovyBee]

Wickeycolumbus, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:07 AM, said:

Whatever way you look at it, this attitude of secrecy is certainly not attracting customers or developers.

Its not secrecy that drives developers away. Its people complaining, whining and arguing about the products (hardware/games/applications) they work on in their free time. Why would anybody spend 100s of hours working on something just for some random to come along and have a pop at it and the developer takes a kick in the teeth. Retro products are labours of love (we all know that) and should be fun to work on in our free time and for others to get enjoyment out of them too.

Why should I pass on any information about projects people have talked to me about? If developers want to disclose their products to a wider AA audience it's up to them at the end of the day. Personally, I've no intention of stealing their thunder.

[DracIsBack]

Underball, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:08 AM, said:

. What I don't get is all the secrecy. If programmers aren't ready to announce titles yet, fine. But Mark keeps jabbing away with snarky comments like "that you know of".

Well, by all means, enlighten us, dude.

What is he supposed to do?

You come out and essentially call the XM games 'vapourware' because you haven't personally seen them. He says that there are several in development but doesn't want to go into it further. Suppose he tells us about all the projects he's got or is considering? What that will open up is a constant stream of "when's this coming, when's this coming?" from a lot of people in the community. Suppose life changes, plans change, something doesn't pan out?

I understand why he doesn't want to get into more details.

Quote

yet he's allowed to be condescending and rude, and it's my fault? C'mon.

Dude - my issue with it is that you won't freakin' let it go! Curt, Ed, Mark and others have been working hard on the XM for a while and investing a ton of hours on it. Yet, you keep acting like a killjoy by re-raising these threads about how it 'is pointless' or 'won't have any games' or how 'games are vapourware.

If I was spending hundreds of my hours doing this as a labour of love, I'd be a little pissed off at you not letting it go either. Would you be satisfied if the project were cancelled? Would you be satisfied if you aggrevate the people working on it so much that they abandon their work?

Edited by DracIsBack, Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:37 AM.

[GroovyBee]

Underball, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:53 AM, said:

And none of this changes the fact that you are refusing to supply tools, yet telling people to program their own games if they aren't satisfied.

I'm sure the people beta testing some of my tools wouldn't agree on that point. Plus I have published several developer tools in the past. One for MARIA Display List and Display List List analysis and another for handling SaveKeys.

[Underball]

DracIsBack, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:33 AM, said:

Underball, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:08 AM, said:

. What I don't get is all the secrecy. If programmers aren't ready to announce titles yet, fine. But Mark keeps jabbing away with snarky comments like "that you know of".

Well, by all means, enlighten us, dude.

What is he supposed to do?

You come out and essentially call the XM games 'vapourware' because you haven't personally seen them. He says that there are several in development but doesn't want to go into it further. Suppose he tells us about all the projects he's got or is considering? What that will open up is a constant stream of "when's this coming, when's this coming?" from a lot of people in the community. Suppose life changes, plans change, something doesn't pan out?

I understand why he doesn't want to get into more details.

Understood.

Maybe then he should stop saying things like "that you know of". This is where the charges of secrecy come from. Not because devs choose not to announce titles yet. Because he keeps hinting that there are quite a few games also coming, that we have absolutely no evidence of, besides his vague comments.

Well, when you combine the above teasing of info, with the condescending tone of his replies in challenging people to "work as hard as he is" - it's a recipe for forum arguments, every time.

Prospective customers and budding programmers alike do not like to be talked down to, and told to shut up and take it like it is.

[GroovyBee]

Underball, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:40 AM, said:

Maybe then he should stop saying things like "that you know of". This is where the charges of secrecy come from. Not because devs choose not to announce titles yet. Because he keeps hinting that there are quite a few games also coming, that we have absolutely no evidence of, besides his vague comments.

Maybe you should stop making out that there is only 1 XM game (2 now) which is what I'm replying to. I've never said that there are quite a few either.

Quote

Well, when you combine the above teasing of info, with the condescending tone of his replies in challenging people to "work as hard as he is" - it's a recipe for forum arguments, every time.

Please quote where I've said "work as hard as he is"? Its my experience that if you want to do something that nobody else is doing on a platform then you have to knuckle down and get on with it yourself. No amount of moaning, whining or complaining will inspire people to take on your cause. Quite the opposite in fact. However, making your own steps towards something and showing willing in getting the job done might spark some interest from other parties.

Quote

Prospective customers and budding programmers alike do not like to be talked down to, and told to shut up and take it like it is.

I'm not aware that I've ever said "shut up and take it like it is" to anybody. I've never talked down to any prospective programmer (or the old hands for that matter) either on the board. Have a look in any of the programming sections on AA.

[psquare75]

My only post here is this. I suspect I am not alone with these feelings. Once produced, and a few people have an XM, and there are a few games out with some pics and reviews, I'll probably get a unit if I see something I like. For now, I'll wait and go back to lurking in the XM threads.

[AtariNerd]

DracIsBack, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:33 AM, said:

Would you be satisfied if you aggrevate the people working on it so much that they abandon their work?

Bingo! That's part of it. Underball has philosophically been opposed to the existence of this project from the beginning. Anyone remember the V'ger comment? I believe the questioning of whether the games employ the enhanced features is a bit of a practice of speaking out of both sides of his mouth, along with mentioning the feature-sets that are replicated in scarce existing items, that, unlike the XM that will eventually be, aren't generally available to the general public for sale by any vendor and when they do avail themselves in the secondary market are at a premium price. I have yet to see a CCII download store that supports the homebrew community. He knows very well that it might be a year or more for many of these games to manifest themselves. It's a good point, but one not one made in good conscience. He knows it's something that will discourage people. It's all about driving a wedge.

Well, I say phooey.

Fortunately, this is a success, despite it's struggles and naysayers.

EDIT: Correction and my apology at the quote misatribution. see jaybird3rds post below.

Edited by AtariNerd, Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:29 PM.

[jaybird3rd]

AtariNerd, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:11 PM, said:

Anyone remember the V'ger comment?

Well, in fairness, I think I was actually the one who made the V'ger comment, as an analogy for classic console/computer upgrades that go too far and transform the systems they were designed for into entirely different platforms. But I also went out of my way to say (in response to other posts in that thread) that the XM doesn't cross that line, and I gave several reasons for saying so, so the V'ger analogy wasn't intended as a swipe at the XM.

[ATARI7800fan]

GroovyBee, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:27 AM, said:

ATARI7800fan, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:01 AM, said:

I would say 5 or more.

Lets look at the maths :-

A moderate to complex game will take up to 300 hours to program (maybe even more).
Artwork for the game (if you have an artist on board) maybe another 30 hours (or more).
Sound effects/music (if you have a musician on board) again up to 20 hours or so.
Plus time for game testing, getting carts made, label artwork etc.

So that's around 350 hours per game and one or more people working on a game. For 5 games that's 1750 hours of free time to find. Given the small developer scene in the 7800 world and factoring in real life that's a ton of work.

Good point, that is why I am going to wait a year or so before I buy one, maybe 5 is asking a little too much, but I do want to see some side scrolling platformers and beat em ups. So far the 7800 only has one of each and neither was great. Not to sound mean of anything it is just that I have 9 other consoles I am currently collecting for including a Neo Geo AES, so I really do not have the money to spend on something unless I am absolutely sure I will enjoy it.

[toiletunes]

I went to K-Mart the other day. I saw a Blu-Ray player in the advertisement. I went up to a sales associate and said, "Why should I buy this if you don't have any videos?" The associate showed me the videos. I said, "No, I meant good videos, the kind I want." I kept this up for awhile, and I was eventually asked to leave.

[Underball]

AtariNerd, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:11 PM, said:

DracIsBack, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:33 AM, said:

Would you be satisfied if you aggrevate the people working on it so much that they abandon their work?

Bingo! That's part of it. Underball has philosophically been opposed to the existence of this project from the beginning. Anyone remember the V'ger comment? I believe the questioning of whether the games employ the enhanced features is a bit of a practice of speaking out of both sides of his mouth, along with mentioning the feature-sets that are replicated in scarce existing items, that, unlike the XM that will eventually be, aren't generally available to the general public for sale by any vendor and when they do avail themselves in the secondary market are at a premium price. I have yet to see a CCII download store that supports the homebrew community. He knows very well that it might be a year or more for many of these games to manifest themselves. It's a good point, but one not one made in good conscience. He knows it's something that will discourage people. It's all about driving a wedge.

Well, I say phooey.

Fortunately, this is a success, despite it's struggles and naysayers.

EDIT: Correction and my apology at the quote misatribution. see jaybird3rds post below.

I am not trying to drive a wedge, nor am I philosphically opposed to anything.

I am simply dealing in cold hard facts.

This project is a great idea. I want nothing more than to see it be a success. I merely want to know what games are being worked on besides those already mentioned, to decide whether I want to purchase it now, or later. I want to know what 4 screenshots will adorn that awesome looking box cover design. But I don't want vague insinuations, childish teases, or to be told to simply have "faith". This isn't field of dreams. Shoeless Joe Afterburner isn't hiding in the weeds at the edge of the outfield.

Call me a Doubting Thomas or a miserable nincompoop all you like. I want to know exactly what I'm buying when I plunk down $150+.

[Underball]

toiletunes, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:40 PM, said:

I went to K-Mart the other day. I saw a Blu-Ray player in the advertisement. I went up to a sales associate and said, "Why should I buy this if you don't have any videos?" The associate showed me the videos. I said, "No, I meant good videos, the kind I want." I kept this up for awhile, and I was eventually asked to leave.

So what you're saying is, if I buy the XM, there will be thousands if games available for it on Amazon.com?

AWESOME!!!

Otherwise, yeah this analogy doesn't really work.

[Ransom]

Underball, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:50 PM, said:

This project is a great idea. I want nothing more than to see it be a success. I merely want to know what games are being worked on besides those already mentioned, to decide whether I want to purchase it now, or later. I want to know what 4 screenshots will adorn that awesome looking box cover design. But I don't want vague insinuations, childish teases, or to be told to simply have "faith". This isn't field of dreams. Shoeless Joe Afterburner isn't hiding in the weeds at the edge of the outfield.

Looks like you might have to just go with the info you have, and make your decision based on that. That's what a number of folks who have posted previously are doing: waiting until there are actual games that they like enough to justify buying an XM. Until then, they're taking a wait-and-see approach. Perhaps that would work for you, too.

[AtariNerd]

Underball, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:50 PM, said:

I am not trying to drive a wedge, nor am I philosphically opposed to anything.

I am simply dealing in cold hard facts.

This project is a great idea. I want nothing more than to see it be a success. I merely want to know what games are being worked on besides those already mentioned, to decide whether I want to purchase it now, or later. I want to know what 4 screenshots will adorn that awesome looking box cover design. But I don't want vague insinuations, childish teases, or to be told to simply have "faith". This isn't field of dreams. Shoeless Joe Afterburner isn't hiding in the weeds at the edge of the outfield.

Call me a Doubting Thomas or a miserable nincompoop all you like. I want to know exactly what I'm buying when I plunk down $150+.

Now, that sounds more reasonable. I don't think anyone would have misgivings if it were left at that. Why not?

Edited by AtariNerd, Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:01 PM.

[Atarifever]

Okay, new forum rule: No talking about upcoming projects unless you work on them. A second new rule: where possible, don't talk about projects even if you ARE working on them.

This place is quickly coming to resemble a Jaguar forum, and the day the 7800 forums become nothing more than grinding axes and talk about the next big thing that people all end up hating on, is the day I vote to shut it down.

[GroovyBee]

ATARI7800fan, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:28 PM, said:

Good point, that is why I am going to wait a year or so before I buy one, maybe 5 is asking a little too much, but I do want to see some side scrolling platformers and beat em ups.

Although not scrolling platformers there are a couple of platformers in the homebrew games Harry's Hen House and Monster! (which are a couple of WIPs I intend to come back to). The 2600 also has K.O. Cruiser which by all accounts is an excellent boxing game. I know its not a beat-em-up but it might wet your appetite . The problem with beat-em-ups in general is that large and colourful graphics are beyond many coders so you need an artist on board. To do any of those style of games justice with fluid multi-frame animation you'd be looking at 128K carts (or more) and that is a whole can of worms in itself. Having said that, I was a big fan of IK+ and Way of the Exploding fist back in the day. So... Never say never .

[Underball]

Atarifever, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:08 PM, said:

Okay, new forum rule: No talking about upcoming projects unless you work on them. A second new rule: where possible, don't talk about projects even if you ARE working on them.

This place is quickly coming to resemble a Jaguar forum, and the day the 7800 forums become nothing more than grinding axes and talk about the next big thing that people all end up hating on, is the day I vote to shut it down.

Bingo.

Atari 7800/Fight Club.

You do NOT talk about Atari 7800.

This is really what gets me. The fact that anyone who dares ask what's going on gets belittled, or told to leave if they don't like being kept in the dark.

Great marketing strategy there. Atari 7800 XM - Soup Nazi style! NO SOUP FOR YOU!

Edited by Underball, Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:16 PM.

[ATARI7800fan]

GroovyBee, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:12 PM, said:

ATARI7800fan, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:28 PM, said:

Good point, that is why I am going to wait a year or so before I buy one, maybe 5 is asking a little too much, but I do want to see some side scrolling platformers and beat em ups.

Although not scrolling platformers there are a couple of platformers in the homebrew games Harry's Hen House and Monster! (which are a couple of WIPs I intend to come back to). The 2600 also has K.O. Cruiser which by all accounts is an excellent boxing game. I know its not a beat-em-up but it might wet your appetite . The problem with beat-em-ups in general is that large and colourful graphics are beyond many coders so you need an artist on board. To do any of those style of games justice with fluid multi-frame animation you'd be looking at 128K carts (or more) and that is a whole can of worms in itself. Having said that, I was a big fan of IK+ and Way of the Exploding fist back in the day. So... Never say never .

Thanks for the response. The two platformers look good, what is your opinion on side scrolling platformers though, can they be done on the 7800, I know there is scrapyard dog.

[GroovyBee]

ATARI7800fan, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:16 PM, said:

Thanks for the response. The two platformers look good, what is your opinion on side scrolling platformers though, can they be done on the 7800, I know there is scrapyard dog.

I don't see any problems doing scrolling platformers on a stock 7800 from a technical point of view. However, when you throw more RAM (like the 128K in the XM) into the mix, its possible to make things more interesting.

[DracIsBack]

ATARI7800fan, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:16 PM, said:

what is your opinion on side scrolling platformers though, can they be done on the 7800, I know there is scrapyard dog.

In all honesty, while I think there are issues with SCRAPYARD DOG as a game, I think it proves pretty definitively that a side-scroller can be done on the 7800 if one so is inclined. It moves quick, the graphics are solid and there are some cool visual tricks like the water scrolling at a different speed than the rest of the game. Lots of variety too. After years of hearing, "I hear the 7800 can't do a side scrolling game like MARIO or ALEX KIDD", that settled that argument for me.

Now if only it was easier in spots and didn't have that ending from hell.

[GroovyBee]

Underball, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:14 PM, said:

This is really what gets me. The fact that anyone who dares ask what's going on gets belittled, or told to leave if they don't like being kept in the dark.

All developers are entitled to keep their projects under wraps or to allow a select and trusted few to beta test. Its entirely up to them what information they give out and not you. Complaining and whining about it isn't going to change their attitude. If anything, you'll kill more projects your way than keeping things under wraps because developers will just think "why bother with all the grief when I can do something else". Even in my short tenure here I've seen quite a few developers walk away from Atari (all machines) or shut down their developments because of attitudes like yours.

[GroovyBee]

DracIsBack, on Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:32 PM, said:

After years of hearing, "I hear the 7800 can't do a side scrolling game like MARIO or ALEX KIDD", that settled that argument for me.

I've never played Scrapyard Dog all that much. Personally I just find it to be quite an irritating game.

The technique I came up with in Dungeon! to display tiles and sprites could be used to make some very interesting and colourful scrolling games. However, my time is at a premium at the moment.

[ApolloBoy]

I can understand why some people are getting irritated with the whole "secrecy" thing, but for me it's just making me more excited! I preordered mine knowing full well that there wasn't a whole lot announced for the XM, and I'm excited as to what will show up when the XM is shipped. Furthermore, I know the XM will have technical docs so I'm really hoping to use the XM as a potential dev tool, in addition for using it to play cool new games.