142 replies to this topic

[sh3-rg]

minux, on Tue May 24, 2011 9:26 AM, said:

For the folks that wish to own the game, unless you want to spend a small fortune, it will always be impossible.

That's one way of looking at it. I wouldn't use the word 'always' as there's nothing to be so certain about when it comes to collecting (not just videogames) & market forces. There are similarities here to apparent 'Holy Grails' in other collecting circles that folded in on themselves when the bubble burst. It's not unthinkable.

Consider these minty fresh "factory sealed" copies that continue to appear from beneath a bed King Og might have considered overly spacious. Nobody knows how many more there are awaiting a similar fate (well, except the seller and apparently he's never been one to share exact facts and figures) or how long they will continue to trickle into circulation in such fashion. It's not sensible to speculate in such a way when this number is unknown.

It doesn't seem that genuine supply & demand are the only forces in play when you consider this one game - I know I'm not the only person to believe there's something a little more contrived going on and it wouldn't be an isolated case of someone wishing to manipulate the value of something Jaguar.

Anyway, put your maths hat on, it's time for...

• Take a minute to consider how many active Jaguar fans are out there, more specifically the collector variety (not really so easy to do as some people conduct their business well away from forums, but it should be possible to come to a figure that will suffice). What we can say is that the current figure in mid-2011 is nothing like what it once was, but you should probably allow for dormant collectors who are happy to sit on their collections as they are.
• Total up how many copies of BS/G have been sold by the producers (again, not really possible to work out exactly as they've never been overly open when it comes to figures for units, percentages of profit to charity, percentage of profit to lawyers or "other parties" regarding trademarks etc., but a sufficiently accurate figure is possible with a little research and reading between the lines).
• Do The Math. Simply compare the two figures and draw your own conclusions...
• Now consider that some people are sitting on multiple copies, in at least one or two instances not just a trifling 2 or 3 of them. The excess here are copies, given the world we live in, such people are quite unlikely to want to take to their graves with them, although I wouldn't put it past some people I know These are copies that in all likelihood they will want to cash in on at some point. Maybe a good point would be when "factory sealed" copies are changing hands for >$1,000.00?
• Now allow for this and compare the figures again.
• Also consider there are maybe a few people out there who are not Jaguar collectors or Jaguar fans, not people who want to sit back & bask in the warm glow of the shiny "factory sealed" collection centrepiece, but people who have seen the state of play, taken a punt & look forward to the day they can cash in & set sail for the Bahamas. These are not Jag fans, they're simply speculators. They're quite happy to see the current 'value' of the game & will be waiting to maximise profit when they cash their chips.

Yes, the game is scarce - especially in "factory sealed" condition and when compared to any given officially released game/some post-Atari open-platform releases. But in real terms it's probably just borderline [R]are when in an opened/playable condition. If any collector wants to go bag a copy for playing, it can be done quite easily as long as the money is there to make it happen, there's always someone willing to cash-in. I'm not exactly sure what a used copy goes for currently. For quite some time it's been the case that people have bought the game (despite the large outlay involved) and have been reasonably safe to assume they could play it for a while before selling it on at a profit or at least managing to break even. But this simply can't last forever. Markets don't keep going up and up and up indefinitely, there's usually only one way that kind of situation ends and it's not usually a gentle slope back down to something more sensible.

People lose interest. The Jaguar is ancient technology. It becomes less and less interesting to the gaming population as a whole as the years roll by. There are less & less people out there who haven't at least had a time-share BS/G in the collection at some point. Most people who have wanted to try that out have had their taste and moved on. There are simply not queues of new Jaguar fans on the horizon with $100 bills overflowing from their pockets who simply must own the game at any price.

Quite probably, not so far in the future, there could well be downturn in value of BS/G, if not exactly a run on it, at least a sharp decline. Some might hold their nerve & hope that in another 5 or 10 years time there will still be people out there willing to spunk such huge wads on the game and sit on their copy/copies hoping for even more profit in time. Others will be reaching a point in their lives where extravagances such as videogame collections seem impractical and they'll be dumping parts of their collections more and more in favour of more 'sensible' purchases. If more than a handful of people chose to do this within a small time frame it will impact value.

While some will be quite happy to continue to own or play the game they treasure so much, there's just not a new generation of Atari fans out there with a love of old hardware and games to take up any slack - these days the word Atari means nothing more than just another mediocre software publisher... and I won't just limit this to BS/G - it applies to the other Jaguar releases/homebrews many consider to be strangely over-valued. Anyone collecting VCS (at least in the UK - personal experience) back from the late 90s through to the early 00s will remember how huge sections of their collections fell through the floor in value in quite a short period of time. Jaguar could well be approaching a similar milestone but doing so with a much more condensed fanbase. Nobody can predict the future, but to suggest it simply won't happen and the sticking heads in the sand will do little to prevent it, it'll actually worsen the effect.

Realistically, considering the state of the global economy and the less-than-stellar forecasts, it's hard to see how this $1,000.00 "factory sealed" BS/G craze can continue for much longer. Some people could get their fingers scorched if not well and truly burned. But then again, remember how many people scoffed at the price paid for the one-off version a little while back, doesn't seem so ridiculous on reflection now, does it...? Well of course it does, but at the moment it seems like a decent investment. That's where the problems lies... the game isn't a commodity to be traded but many of people are treating it as such. It has a best-before date, there will come a time when there is less demand and there is way more supply. But for now, it's safe to say that some people just have more money than sense, even if others could well be taking advantage of that.

[overridex]

wozencl, on Mon May 23, 2011 12:58 AM, said:

Hi Dan, you've bought a "factory sealed" copy and paid a premium for it. Once you open it's value will drop, perhaps a good deal, so you might want to get an idea of how much you're likely to get on resale.

I honestly got sick of waiting for an opened, but complete, BSG to show up for sale. I've seen the original Battlesphere from time to time, but rarely gold. I fully intend to carefully open and play it, even though it will lose value. I'm honestly not sure if I'll resell it anyway, I tell myself I'll just rent it for a while and resell it to get (hopefully) most of my investment back, but honestly I'm not sure I'll give it up. I sold all my Jaguar stuff once when I was a foolish kid looking for quick cash, and regretted it for years.

And to be honest, at this point money's far easier to come by than BSG.

-Dan

[Chuplayer]

minux, on Tue May 24, 2011 9:26 AM, said:

When Battlesphere Gold came onto the market, I tried to preorder it, but the folks at Scatalogic wouldn’t sell to me.

Why wouldn't they sell it to you? Refusing a sale doesn't make much sense.

[minux]

Chuplayer, on Wed May 25, 2011 2:52 PM, said:

minux, on Tue May 24, 2011 9:26 AM, said:

When Battlesphere Gold came onto the market, I tried to preorder it, but the folks at Scatalogic wouldn’t sell to me.

Why wouldn't they sell it to you? Refusing a sale doesn't make much sense.

Preorder was the wrong word, so I'm not trying to confuse anyone. What I meant to say was when they were taking and fulfilling orders for Gold, I was disregarded.

I do not know Doug's reasons, as he never told me directly. He simply ignored my various emails, when Gold was available for sale. I'd have to dig through my emails on my old Mac, but I'm pretty certain he even made a remark about me trying to order Gold.

I do know he was bent over me selling my original copy on eBay. I won this copy through that Atari auction site that emerged years ago, when Doug was putting up copies on there. Contrary to what he may have thought, I did not retire to South Beach via the sale of my copy. Gosh only knows what he thought about what. The other reason I can guesstimate on is he never liked me much to begin with.

Edited by minux, Wed May 25, 2011 5:17 PM.

[Chuplayer]

minux, on Wed May 25, 2011 5:15 PM, said:

Chuplayer, on Wed May 25, 2011 2:52 PM, said:

minux, on Tue May 24, 2011 9:26 AM, said:

When Battlesphere Gold came onto the market, I tried to preorder it, but the folks at Scatalogic wouldn’t sell to me.

Why wouldn't they sell it to you? Refusing a sale doesn't make much sense.

Preorder was the wrong word, so I'm not trying to confuse anyone. What I meant to say was when they were taking and fulfilling orders for Gold, I was disregarded.

I do not know Doug's reasons, as he never told me directly. He simply ignored my various emails, when Gold was available for sale. I'd have to dig through my emails on my old Mac, but I'm pretty certain he even made a remark about me trying to order Gold.

I do know he was bent over me selling my original copy on eBay. I won this copy through that Atari auction site that emerged years ago, when Doug was putting up copies on there. Contrary to what he may have thought, I did not retire to South Beach via the sale of my copy. Gosh only knows what he thought about what. The other reason I can guesstimate on is he never liked me much to begin with.

What a miserable group of people.

[PeterG]

Chuplayer, on Wed May 25, 2011 2:52 PM, said:

minux, on Tue May 24, 2011 9:26 AM, said:

When Battlesphere Gold came onto the market, I tried to preorder it, but the folks at Scatalogic wouldn’t sell to me.

Why wouldn't they sell it to you? Refusing a sale doesn't make much sense.

I guess you haven't been around that long but back then Minux was one of the biggest trolls.
He announced a game, said he wanted to make more copies of Battlesphere and so on and so on...all just talk and pissing people off. Every few years he seems to remember that there is a Jaguar community out there and then he comes back for a few posts. Amusing now, very annoying back then...

[minux]

PeterG, on Fri May 27, 2011 12:59 AM, said:

Chuplayer, on Wed May 25, 2011 2:52 PM, said:

minux, on Tue May 24, 2011 9:26 AM, said:

When Battlesphere Gold came onto the market, I tried to preorder it, but the folks at Scatalogic wouldn’t sell to me.

Why wouldn't they sell it to you? Refusing a sale doesn't make much sense.

I guess you haven't been around that long but back then Minux was one of the biggest trolls.
He announced a game, said he wanted to make more copies of Battlesphere and so on and so on...all just talk and pissing people off. Every few years he seems to remember that there is a Jaguar community out there and then he comes back for a few posts. Amusing now, very annoying back then...

This isn’t correct. For posterity, I do not mind addressing your claims nor do I mind giving you a historical accounts of the happenings of the community.

Looking back on age and the personalities involved in the community, I find it laughable that you’re going to single out the words of a child. To claim that it was OK for a 50 year old person to be antagonistic towards a child, yet it was not OK for a child to be antagonistic back is a bit odd. In my opinion, the one that was worse was the one that was picking on the kid. The kid was wrong, too. Yet, I feel there's no helping age.

About your two claims that I claimed to make a Jaguar game and I wanted to make copies of Battlesphere, these need to be addressed properly. For the former, work was being done. As far as the latter, despite me agreeing to meet Scatalogic’s demands, I was not given the go ahead from them. No work was ever done. You seem to be implying that I wanted to make illegal copies of Battlesphere. No, I never said that, intended to do that, etc. Let’s nip that in the butt, because no such claim in that regard ever came from me.

I have never denied my involvement in the community nor anything I ever said. Simply ask. I’m going to give you the straight dope. I’m not going to defend my actions or defend anyone else. I’m going to call a spade a spade and tell you exactly what occurred.

You can believe what you want, but to come on here and make sweeping statements that have no bearing on the actual discussion at hand is not needed. Please pick straws out of some other thread.

[Sauron]

Minux, there's no denying that you were regarded as one of the biggest trolls in the Jag community. You trolled JI2 for years. Your age at the time, while possibly providing an explanation, doesn't make up for the fact that you were extremely disruptive to the community. Whether or not you're still one remains to be seen, but keep in mind that you haven't been forgotten.

[Austin]

Sauron, on Fri May 27, 2011 5:02 PM, said:

Minux, there's no denying that you were regarded as one of the biggest trolls in the Jag community. You trolled JI2 for years. Your age at the time, while possibly providing an explanation, doesn't make up for the fact that you were extremely disruptive to the community. Whether or not you're still one remains to be seen, but keep in mind that you haven't been forgotten.

I thought his name sounded familiar. I don't recall most of the flame wars from JI2 though asides from some of the stuff tbird was involved with, but even the details on those are vague to me, it's been so long....

[overridex]

Speaking of JI2 I know that was still up somewhat recently but seems to be down now. Anyone know what's up? it was still fun to wander to once in awhile for nostaliga if nothing else...

-Dan

[wozencl]

overridex, on Sat May 28, 2011 7:09 AM, said:

Speaking of JI2 I know that was still up somewhat recently but seems to be down now. Anyone know what's up? it was still fun to wander to once in awhile for nostaliga if nothing else...

-Dan

JustClaws mentioned he was taking it down (or unable to get it back up...) not so long ago.

Here you go

[overridex]

wozencl, on Sat May 28, 2011 7:16 AM, said:

JustClaws mentioned he was taking it down (or unable to get it back up...) not so long ago.

Here you go

Ah, that's too bad. it was cool to see something still around and so unchanged so many years later.

-Dan

[Bones Justice]

I think the probability of owning the game is very low. How many folks are willing to spend over five hundred or maybe even a thousand dollars to buy the game? I think few. And even if you are willing to spend that much, only one of a dozen bidders on eBay can win the auction anyways.

I do find it unusual that the game makers are reluctant to let more cartridges be made. If the game is really as good as some claim, I'd think the makers would want as many people to play it as possible. It's just odd to make something really good then not let very many people see it.

If they are trying to keep the game rare or hard to own, why not release a compromised version for the rest of us? I don't think it would take much for the makers to disable some of the game modes. For example, sell it as a single player game with no network capabilities. This would allow a lot of Jaguar fans to play the game while the "Gold" version (and the original) would continue to be rare.

By the way, I was amongst those that was on the waiting list that never got notified when the game was originally for sale. I didn't find out the it was available until a few days after the game was sold out. I did manage to buy Iron Soldier II CD before it was sold out. From my perspective, Iron Soldier II is a better game than Battlesphere, at least until it's proven to me otherwise.

[danny_galaga]

Bones Justice, on Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:15 AM, said:

I do find it unusual that the game makers are reluctant to let more cartridges be made. If the game is really as good as some claim, I'd think the makers would want as many people to play it as possible. It's just odd to make something really good then not let very many people see it.

Yeah, why would they do that? Can anyone explain? Personally I don't think there is any good reason not to keep making something that sells, but I'm in a good mood and would be amused by the excuses

[MCHufnagel]

danny_galaga, on Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:33 AM, said:

Bones Justice, on Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:15 AM, said:

I do find it unusual that the game makers are reluctant to let more cartridges be made. If the game is really as good as some claim, I'd think the makers would want as many people to play it as possible. It's just odd to make something really good then not let very many people see it.

Yeah, why would they do that? Can anyone explain? Personally I don't think there is any good reason not to keep making something that sells, but I'm in a good mood and would be amused by the excuses

I'll throw in my opinion on the matter.

A few months ago I met a person through a mutual friened that actually owned a copy of Battlesphere (not Gold) and he was kind enough to let me borrow it for a weekend. It is a pretty good game, but not the world-beater that many Jag fans say it is. There are plenty of other shooters that are dirt cheap or even free (pc freeware) that are just as good or better than Battlesphere. The reason why this game has legendary status is because it is so rare and sells at astronomical prices. If it was more common, more people would be able to play it and see this for themselves. The developers don't want to lose the legendary status this game has.

Just my opinion (prepares for jag-fan onslaught).

[wozencl]

Battlesphere, rather ridiculously IMO, has become far, far more than just a game...

It's a status symbol, badge of honour and a collectors wet dream. Sadly it also hangs over the entire Jag scene like an irritant smog. For some people it's the best game that's ever existed - if I'd spent £600 on a released computer game I'd be telling myself the same - for others, owning it is probably far more about feeling part of clique, a sense of belonging or even fulfilling a simple desire to own something rare (it isn't really).

There's so much bitterness surrounding it I wish people would simply forget it and move on. If you're that desperate to play it cough up the cash and perpetuate the absurdity, alternatively take a step back and think... Owning it is not going to change your life in any meaningful way, your hair won't grow back nor will women/men suddenly find you more attractive. It is, after all, just a game.

[Bones Justice]

Good point, but even if I am "desperate", it comes down to more than the cash. Maybe I bid high but still get outbid for the next copy; only one is gonna get it then the rest of us will still be talking about getting it.

I'm not sure about the status symbol angle. I mean, my friends thought I was nuts when I bought a Jaguar back in the nineties and tried to have me committed when I bought my second one. I don't see a Battlesphere cartridge impressing anyone that I know, not even if I hung it from a gold-chain around my neck!

I like space-shooters, my favorites being Shadow Squadron (32X) and the sequel, Stellar Assault SS (Saturn). I'm not looking for Battlesphere just so I can compare it or as some kind of status symbol. I want to play it because it sounds like the kind of game I would enjoy. Stellar Assault is also a rare game now but it wasn't when I bought it new. As much as I enjoy it, I wouldn't advise others that it's worth what it costs on eBay.

I still think they could easily make a cut-down version that would allow the masses to play it while keeping the original and Gold versions rare.

[danny_galaga]

Status or no, it is at least an ok game, right? And people are buying new ok games for the Jaguar still. It would make a lot of sense to hang the 'legendary status' that the developers apparently have attained, and instead go for the bucks. By that I don't mean having sold 20 for 200 dollars or whatever. Instead, go for volume (in the scale of things Jaguar related) and maybe sell hundreds for $50 or so. I know I'd buy one. I just picked up Zero 5 for a bit more than that.

Henry Ford could have just continued to make hand made cars for a small fortune each. Lucky for him he looked a little further ahead...

Anyway, it's all academic really, isn't it?