142 replies to this topic

[wood_jl]

I didn't realize the developers were still active and producing Jaguar titles.


As far as advocating piracy - that wasn't the primary intent of the question, seeing as I was not aware they are still producing Jaguar cartridges. It does, then, beg the question why they wouldn't manufacture a few more, because if the demand wasn't there, people wouldn't get into bidding wars. Compared to developing a new game entirely, wouldn't it be easy for them to reproduce this game and sell it themselves?

Many, many people that visit this website (and I dare say many more who do not) have enormous "ROM" collections for classic consoles and classic computers, on their hard drives. How many places on the web can you download complete "ROMsets" for the Atari 2600, for example? Every one of those people are equally deserving of being chastised, because that's no less piracy than what I was asking about. Sometimes, I think some of them conveniently forget this fact, when going on a moralistic rant. I submit to you that my question was more innocent than if I started a thread on how to pirate "Black Ops" on the 360.

I was unwaware, and merely asking a question. If you'd like to stamp out Jag piracy, Google "jaguar roms" and perhaps you can shut some of the sites down, that appear in this picture; they're doing a lot more to impede "advancing the industry" than I was, by posing that question.

Edited by wood_jl, Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:15 PM.

[Austin]

wood_jl, on Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:14 PM, said:

I didn't realize the developers were still active and producing Jaguar titles.

I think it was more of a sarcastic response than anything. They are "active" in one way, but as far as I know, no more than most of us are (i.e., posting on forums).

wood_jl, on Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:14 PM, said:

As far as advocating piracy - that wasn't the primary intent of the question, seeing as I was not aware they are still producing Jaguar cartridges. It does, then, beg the question why they wouldn't manufacture a few more, because if the demand wasn't there, people wouldn't get into bidding wars. Compared to developing a new game entirely, wouldn't it be easy for them to reproduce this game and sell it themselves?

There are a lot of reasons why it could be good for them to do another run, and there are obviously plenty of reasons as to why it would be good for us as well. However, there could be other reasons for standing by their decision to not do another one. It could very well boil down to having busy everyday lives. Maybe they simply do not feel like doing another one. Yes, that sucks, but that could be the truth of it.

wood_jl, on Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:14 PM, said:

I was unwaware, and merely asking a question. If you'd like to stamp out Jag piracy, Google "jaguar roms" and perhaps you can shut some of the sites down, that appear in this picture; they're doing a lot more to impede "advancing the industry" than I was, by posing that question.

I think you took the meaning a little out of proportion. It's pretty clear developers of Battlesphere don't want their game made freely available (yet). It's a stance that, while everyone may not agree on it for one reason or another, should at least be respected. That doesn't mean that it won't be backed up by someone and be made available elsewhere in some downloadable format, or that it can't. Abiding by forum rules, I'm not to say I advocate it though. My actual feelings could be another story altogether, however.

It's been stated here before, but there was a recent blog entry that dabbled on this topic in one form or another: http://www.atariage....call-to-action/

[S1500]

CyranoJ, on Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:52 PM, said:

As much as I dislike the way this games price is set artificially high, talking about pirating or making reproductions of this game is wrong.

It applies to 3D Stooges and their games (And many of you know how we feel about them) - however there isn't one rule for some, and another for others.

But that's all I've seen. Atari 2600 ROMs, whether commercially published or homebrew made(freeware) are freely distributed on here. But any mention of Jaguar and suddenly the secret police comes after you. That's the double standard we've all seen around here.

People want to buy this game, but we've obviously seen the high prices for it. If there aren't going to be more legit copies made for sale, people will find away around it. I honestly can't see a reason why a company wouldn't want to make additional copies to sell. Or do they want to keep the prices insanely high for prestige? Don't see why as they aren't getting a cut of that.

[CyranoJ]

Hey, I agree with you about the way things are in every other retro scene - that's even the way Reboot distribute our releases.

However, this belongs to Scato, they are still around, and it's their call. Now, all the other ROMs from the 90's.... They probably should be treated like any other system.

Personally, I don't see much money going to charity when private sellers trade for $1000+. Surely selling more copies of it themselves would put more cash into their chosen charity coffers?

[Sauron]

S1500, on Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:38 PM, said:

But that's all I've seen. Atari 2600 ROMs, whether commercially published or homebrew made(freeware) are freely distributed on here. But any mention of Jaguar and suddenly the secret police comes after you. That's the double standard we've all seen around here.

The Jaguar community has always operated a little differently than most others. For one, it's always been a relatively small community. The Jaguar console itself never died for the small but hardcore group of enthusiasts. Atari stopping production and then ceasing as their own separate entity did not stop the development and publishing of Jaguar games. Many commercial games were released after Atari officially dropped support, so there was not really a clear "end of life" for the Jaguar. Battlesphere in itself began development during the Jaguar's official lifetime, so the developers had invested quite a bit into it by the time it was released. That at least in part explains why there is so much "anti-piracy" sentiment in the Jag community.

Quote

People want to buy this game, but we've obviously seen the high prices for it. If there aren't going to be more legit copies made for sale, people will find away around it. I honestly can't see a reason why a company wouldn't want to make additional copies to sell. Or do they want to keep the prices insanely high for prestige? Don't see why as they aren't getting a cut of that.

What you say is true, but at the same time the community has done a rather remarkable job of policing itself. I wouldn't say that ROMs of games like BSG or the Songbird releases are just floating around for everyone to download. They may be available online from a few places, but it takes considerable digging to find them.

What helps is that the Jaguar scene has been largely driven by collectors, and also that "pirating" Jaguar games in most cases is not an inexpensive proposition. Cartridges are fairly expensive to make, and the emulators that exist are far from complete and/or unable to run a large portion of the Jaguar's library. Of course, the community is finally starting to evolve out of the "commercial" mentality that has existed, but it's been a slow process.

One other thing to add. As long as the commercial developers like Scatalogic and Songbird Productions are active, no discussions of unauthorized use of their games will be tolerated here. I think it's great that this thread hasn't evolved into a massive flamewar so far, so let's keep things civil and within the rules so it stays that way.

[Atari_Owl]

CyranoJ, on Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:52 PM, said:

As much as I dislike the way this games price is set artificially high, talking about pirating or making reproductions of this game is wrong.

Yes, another cart run could be made for a reasonable price, especially using newer flash technology.
Yes, it could be digitally distributed for use in emulators and/or skunkboards.

Persoanlly, I think a digital download for say $15-20 would generate far more cash for his supported charity than one sale per year on ebay.

None of this will, however, happen. Doug and his gang of merry men have been pretty clear about this. At the end of the day it's their game. They can do what they want with it. You (and I) don't have to like the crazy artificially inflated sales prices they are driving up by doing nothing, but you (and I) have to accept it is their call to do what they wish with their own game.

You are not helping the community move forward by asking for games to be pirated.

In fact, you are putting devs off making games. While we release our games for free, we would be extremely upset to see other people making bootlegs and selling them on ebay. What applies to us here, also applies to Scato and their game. It applies to 3D Stooges and their games (And many of you know how we feel about them) - however there isn't one rule for some, and another for others.

I also think it's unfair to entirely blame the collectors for pushing the price up. They paid what they had to to get the game onto their shelves. I do, however, think it's wrong to not produce another run to keep the perceived "value" of this game high just to keep a handful of people happy. They paid the price for the game, and should be prepared to see that value drop if more are made.

In short.

Artificially high prices? Bad.
Bowing down to collectors and not making more to keep prices high? Bad.
Neglecting the userbase who want to play your game? Bad.

Talking about pirating it anyway because you can't get it? WORSE

+1

We've not always seen eye to eye on some things but I agree with CyranoJ here 100%

Regardless of how one may feel about some people in the... i hesitate to say "community"... and the availability/artificially high prices of some software... some of the other points made in this thread make depressing reading.

The discussion of pirating or if one prefers the term bootlegging post-atari games is deeply disheartening to anyone still developing.. as it has been for those already mentioned - or those in other communities, such as the wonderful Pier Solar. Not EVERY ROM in EVERY community is available for free. BE it Jaguar, MegaDrive/Lynx/5200.2600whichever. so lets not pretend that the situation is unique.

Furthermore, just because some of the more vocal people have gone, and the fora much quieter - doesn't automatically make bootlegging of post-atari games acceptable. Whether they be purchased at fair or excessive price - OR for that matter distributed free.

Surely each dev deserves that courtesy?

Edited by Atari_Owl, Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:45 AM.

[Clay]

Bravo CyranoJ; a great post and I agree with everything you've said.

I wonder if the developers of BSG are getting some sort of satisfaction being able to say a game they developed is now the most expensive and sought after game for the Jaguar.

The re-release of Beebris is exactly what I would hope developers will do. If there is a demand for the game let the developers benefit not someone who got lucky enough to get one of 50 copies made.

I hope that Superfly is also re-released because I have seen the game going for $100 already.

I personally do not have a big interest in BSG so I am not tempted to buy but I can understand how a Jaguar completist is going to be willing to spend this much money. I mean I remember hearing about someone paying $30,000 for a 2600 game last year (One of 2 known to exist if I remember correctly.) I believe Retrogaming RoundUp interviewed the buyer sometime last year.

I have seen all the web sites with Jaguar ROMs and admit I downloaded a few. But I can not bring myself to actually use them though. Doesn't feel right.

I own both Beebris and Superfly and I will continue to put my hard earned money into supporting new developments for the Jaguar.

CyranoJ, on Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:52 PM, said:

As much as I dislike the way this games price is set artificially high, talking about pirating or making reproductions of this game is wrong.

Yes, another cart run could be made for a reasonable price, especially using newer flash technology.
Yes, it could be digitally distributed for use in emulators and/or skunkboards.

Persoanlly, I think a digital download for say $15-20 would generate far more cash for his supported charity than one sale per year on ebay.

None of this will, however, happen. Doug and his gang of merry men have been pretty clear about this. At the end of the day it's their game. They can do what they want with it. You (and I) don't have to like the crazy artificially inflated sales prices they are driving up by doing nothing, but you (and I) have to accept it is their call to do what they wish with their own game.

You are not helping the community move forward by asking for games to be pirated.

In fact, you are putting devs off making games. While we release our games for free, we would be extremely upset to see other people making bootlegs and selling them on ebay. What applies to us here, also applies to Scato and their game. It applies to 3D Stooges and their games (And many of you know how we feel about them) - however there isn't one rule for some, and another for others.

I also think it's unfair to entirely blame the collectors for pushing the price up. They paid what they had to to get the game onto their shelves. I do, however, think it's wrong to not produce another run to keep the perceived "value" of this game high just to keep a handful of people happy. They paid the price for the game, and should be prepared to see that value drop if more are made.

In short.

Artificially high prices? Bad.
Bowing down to collectors and not making more to keep prices high? Bad.
Neglecting the userbase who want to play your game? Bad.

Talking about pirating it anyway because you can't get it? WORSE

[Marcer]

It seems the jaguar section are an "proud" side. But my real intention was not "piracy" it was make stuff able for more ppl. And I dont only speak about BSG. as there is some few more very hard to find get titles.

But CJ did a good suggestion, why not put up an download .cdi for an decent price then. for example. Another very good way..

Also in ST scene there is a couple of developers from 200x which still holds back their games since they still tryin to get them commercially published today.
Ofcourse we have to respect the creators what they wanna do with their products. But sometimes I wish some could be more objective.

and.. yes Im new into this ;P

[wozencl]

It's refreshing to see people discussing such a divisive subject in a calm and measured way. This community really seems to be heading in a good direction for a change.


Of course, the BSG situation is absurd almost to the point of being humorous but the ball is in Thunderbird's court and he's not likely to change his mind any time soon. Sad really...

[JagChris]

Marcer, on Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:30 AM, said:

It seems the jaguar section are an "proud" side. But my real intention was not "piracy" it was make stuff able for more ppl. And I dont only speak about BSG. as there is some few more very hard to find get titles.

But CJ did a good suggestion, why not put up an download .cdi for an decent price then. for example. Another very good way..

Also in ST scene there is a couple of developers from 200x which still holds back their games since they still tryin to get them commercially published today.
Ofcourse we have to respect the creators what they wanna do with their products. But sometimes I wish some could be more objective.

and.. yes Im new into this ;P

I cant speak for anyone else but my concern with piracy is for us Jag fans who want to be able to buy new stuff in the package fairly reasonably. If so many people just pirate Jaguar games and dont support the local businesses whether it be existing developers or stuff released back in the day then those small businesses would close. And we would have no way to purchase new games at a good price or have any publishers who will help publish new releases from existing developers.

[Marcer]

JagChris, on Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:34 PM, said:

Marcer, on Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:30 AM, said:

It seems the jaguar section are an "proud" side. But my real intention was not "piracy" it was make stuff able for more ppl. And I dont only speak about BSG. as there is some few more very hard to find get titles.

But CJ did a good suggestion, why not put up an download .cdi for an decent price then. for example. Another very good way..

Also in ST scene there is a couple of developers from 200x which still holds back their games since they still tryin to get them commercially published today.
Ofcourse we have to respect the creators what they wanna do with their products. But sometimes I wish some could be more objective.

and.. yes Im new into this ;P

I cant speak for anyone else but my concern with piracy is for us Jag fans who want to be able to buy new stuff in the package fairly reasonably. If so many people just pirate Jaguar games and dont support the local businesses whether it be existing developers or stuff released back in the day then those small businesses would close. And we would have no way to purchase new games at a good price or have any publishers who will help publish new releases from existing developers.

Well, when these issuse are able in plast in box they could add the effort extra and sell when exists. For all hardcore collectors with big pockets or savings, thats an way aswell.
But meanwhile when out of stock they could do as I refer to, sell the dumps for a cheaper price. Then it wont be a piracy if the developers do it, right.

And Please keep in mind, I ONLY refer to uncommon & beta games, which is not in those "shops" around the globe.

But I really agree with you, we should have a way to purchase new games at a good price

[Clay]

I am not sure that selling a CDI copy will work. Might even make things worse.

There are a lot of people like myself and most of the AtariAge members that will buy the CDI. But for every one CDI copy sold there will probably be 50 copies out there not paid for. This could just frustrate the developers even more.

But it would help bring in a little more money to help offset costs for the developers.

Marcer, on Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:14 AM, said:

JagChris, on Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:34 PM, said:

Marcer, on Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:30 AM, said:

It seems the jaguar section are an "proud" side. But my real intention was not "piracy" it was make stuff able for more ppl. And I dont only speak about BSG. as there is some few more very hard to find get titles.

But CJ did a good suggestion, why not put up an download .cdi for an decent price then. for example. Another very good way..

Also in ST scene there is a couple of developers from 200x which still holds back their games since they still tryin to get them commercially published today.
Ofcourse we have to respect the creators what they wanna do with their products. But sometimes I wish some could be more objective.

and.. yes Im new into this ;P

I cant speak for anyone else but my concern with piracy is for us Jag fans who want to be able to buy new stuff in the package fairly reasonably. If so many people just pirate Jaguar games and dont support the local businesses whether it be existing developers or stuff released back in the day then those small businesses would close. And we would have no way to purchase new games at a good price or have any publishers who will help publish new releases from existing developers.

Well, when these issuse are able in plast in box they could add the effort extra and sell when exists. For all hardcore collectors with big pockets or savings, thats an way aswell.
But meanwhile when out of stock they could do as I refer to, sell the dumps for a cheaper price. Then it wont be a piracy if the developers do it, right.

And Please keep in mind, I ONLY refer to uncommon & beta games, which is not in those "shops" around the globe.

But I really agree with you, we should have a way to purchase new games at a good price

[Tursi]

Battlesphere won't run from CD anyway, from what I've read T-Bird say. CD only gives you 2MB to work with at a time, Battlesphere would need a fair bit of reworking to work there.

Thunderbird repeatedly stated that if someone wanted and was able to produce a run of the cartridges with the same level of quality that he produced the original run, he'd work with that person. I don't know if that's still true, but there are two points to note there. First is that he says nobody ever made the offer, and second, doing such a run is a LOT of work. There is no "just make another run", it takes a lot of time and effort to produce a run of hardware, not to mention the money that gets tied up in it.

Besides, free sharing is socialism, that's eeeeeeeeeeevil.

Cyrano, I +1'd your post too.

[Chuplayer]

Tursi, on Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:11 PM, said:

Thunderbird repeatedly stated that if someone wanted and was able to produce a run of the cartridges with the same level of quality that he produced the original run, he'd work with that person.

And that's exactly what pisses me off about the situation. I don't give a damn about a box and overlays. I just want to play the damn game. (And promptly be disappointed by it because it's supposed to suck so badly.)

[ls650]

Chuplayer, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:53 PM, said:

I just want to play the damn game. (And promptly be disappointed by it because it's supposed to suck so badly.)

Who told you it sucks? IMHO it's a great game, and most folks who play it without a bias against the developers agree. If you enjoy space shooters you will likely enjoy it.

I can understand why some people have major issues with the developers - there is a LOT of history there- but don't confuse a bad attitude with bad gameplay.

[Chuplayer]

ls650, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:03 PM, said:

Chuplayer, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:53 PM, said:

I just want to play the damn game. (And promptly be disappointed by it because it's supposed to suck so badly.)

Who told you it sucks? IMHO it's a great game, and most folks who play it without a bias against the developers agree. If you enjoy space shooters you will likely enjoy it.

I can understand why some people have major issues with the developers - there is a LOT of history there- but don't confuse a bad attitude with bad gameplay.

A handful of people have said so. One person in this thread said something about how he was killed by some weird thing a zillion miles away and laughed at how bad the game was.

But, with only a handful of carts in existence, the general perception of the game is going to be skewed by the disproportionately large number of hardcore Jaguar fans who have made a name for themselves by finding a special kind of fun certain crappy games. (No offense, Jaguar community.)

Personally, and I know this might sound like I'm a couple grassy knolls away from a conspiracy theory, but I can't help but wonder what the fluff is up with the prices for the game and how much money they go for when one does pop up for sale. Like, maybe the developers are playing off of the demand and using different ebay accounts as fronts to sell their game and make big bucks on each sale. The whole situation just sounds fishy to me, you know?

Edited by Chuplayer, Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:24 PM.

[Sargon]

Chuplayer, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:23 PM, said:

maybe the developers are playing off of the demand and using different ebay accounts as fronts to sell their game and make big bucks on each sale.

With how infrequently the game shows up on eBay, I really doubt this would be the case. They could make significantly more money by doing a full print run than they could auctioning off 1 cart every 3-6 months.

[Chuplayer]

Sargon, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:35 PM, said:

Chuplayer, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:23 PM, said:

maybe the developers are playing off of the demand and using different ebay accounts as fronts to sell their game and make big bucks on each sale.

With how infrequently the game shows up on eBay, I really doubt this would be the case. They could make significantly more money by doing a full print run than they could auctioning off 1 cart every 3-6 months.

But in the long term? Let's say they bring in $10,000 for a single run of a decent run of carts. Just throwing out a random money amount, and consider a decent run of carts... a decent run of carts. That's $10,000 in one year, and it's game over. There are enough carts out there to satiate the need for most of the Jaguar community. Just like how there are enough Skunkboards out there that you don't even need to spend $400 to get one used.

Now say they sell three per year. That's $1000 each time, $3000 per year. In just three years and four months, they've sold 10 carts and made $10,000. The game's still scarce enough to command insane prices. In six years and eight months, they've doubled their money, only selling 20 carts and making a whopping $20,000 when they could have just sold all 20 carts to begin with for less than $10,000 total. The dollar value will probably end up going down at some point after that, but it will be quite some time before it hits even current day Skunkboard prices, so they're still going to be getting extra keg money.

It's basic manipulation of the market.

[Clay]

$1200 final price which is pretty funny to me because thats $200 more than the buy it now price.

Jag_Slave, on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:53 AM, said:

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 190522686313

[Chuplayer]

Clay, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:01 PM, said:

$1200 final price which is pretty funny to me because thats $200 more than the buy it now price.

Jag_Slave, on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:53 AM, said:

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 190522686313

Except for one thing last month, that person hadn't sold anything since 2008. I smell a conspiracy.

[Clay]

If your theory is correct we should see another BSG up for sale by the same person in 2-3 months.

Chuplayer, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:30 PM, said:

Clay, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:01 PM, said:

$1200 final price which is pretty funny to me because thats $200 more than the buy it now price.

Jag_Slave, on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:53 AM, said:

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 190522686313

Except for one thing last month, that person hadn't sold anything since 2008. I smell a conspiracy.

[Chuplayer]

Clay, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:34 PM, said:

Chuplayer, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:30 PM, said:

Clay, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:01 PM, said:

$1200 final price which is pretty funny to me because thats $200 more than the buy it now price.

Jag_Slave, on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:53 AM, said:

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 190522686313

Except for one thing last month, that person hadn't sold anything since 2008. I smell a conspiracy.

If your theory is correct we should see another BSG up for sale by the same person in 2-3 months.

No, not necessarily the same person. Probably will be somebody else.

[Sauron]

Tursi, on Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:11 PM, said:

Battlesphere won't run from CD anyway, from what I've read T-Bird say. CD only gives you 2MB to work with at a time, Battlesphere would need a fair bit of reworking to work there.

Thunderbird repeatedly stated that if someone wanted and was able to produce a run of the cartridges with the same level of quality that he produced the original run, he'd work with that person. I don't know if that's still true, but there are two points to note there. First is that he says nobody ever made the offer, and second, doing such a run is a LOT of work. There is no "just make another run", it takes a lot of time and effort to produce a run of hardware, not to mention the money that gets tied up in it.

Besides, free sharing is socialism, that's eeeeeeeeeeevil.

Cyrano, I +1'd your post too.

I've been around this community for a very long time now, and TBH, I don't recall Thunderbird ever making this offer, at least not without some serious caveats attached. I have no doubt that Songbird or someone else would have jumped at the offer, considering how highly sought-after this game has been throughout the years. If I'm mistaken in this, then I'll gladly stand corrected, but I'd really have to see the words of Thunderbird himself saying this.

[Tursi]

Sauron, on Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:23 PM, said:

I've been around this community for a very long time now, and TBH, I don't recall Thunderbird ever making this offer, at least not without some serious caveats attached. I have no doubt that Songbird or someone else would have jumped at the offer, considering how highly sought-after this game has been throughout the years. If I'm mistaken in this, then I'll gladly stand corrected, but I'd really have to see the words of Thunderbird himself saying this.

You can always do some research if you don't believe the claims made. I've done my bit in this community and if you can't take my word, there's really very little to be done now - I believe I've generally been rather honest and unbiased. All that said, it's not all that difficult to contact Thunderbird, and if he'd like to confirm or deny it to you, then you will have the current status right from him.

To follow, I took a quick look back at the "Official Battlesphere Thread" at JSII, since that's the only place he really discusses it publically anymore. The one term about a third party run that I'd forgotten about, possibly the "serious caveats" you mention, is that all profit go to his charity of choice. That would certainly explain why someone like Songbird wouldn't pick it up. That someone would jump at it for profit makes plenty of sense, but as a break-even gift to the community, probably not.

[Sauron]

Tursi, on Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:01 AM, said:

You can always do some research if you don't believe the claims made. I've done my bit in this community and if you can't take my word, there's really very little to be done now - I believe I've generally been rather honest and unbiased. All that said, it's not all that difficult to contact Thunderbird, and if he'd like to confirm or deny it to you, then you will have the current status right from him.

No need to get snippy here, I wasn't questioning your honesty or integrity. I was just saying that I don't recall such an offer ever being on the table. Again, if I am not remembering correctly, then I will gladly stand corrected. I know full well how to contact Thunderbird, but whether or not he would actually reply is a totally different story.

Quote

To follow, I took a quick look back at the "Official Battlesphere Thread" at JSII, since that's the only place he really discusses it publically anymore. The one term about a third party run that I'd forgotten about, possibly the "serious caveats" you mention, is that all profit go to his charity of choice. That would certainly explain why someone like Songbird wouldn't pick it up. That someone would jump at it for profit makes plenty of sense, but as a break-even gift to the community, probably not.

I know all about the "profits to charity" bit, he's stated that from the beginning, and I don't think anyone within the community has ever begrudged that of them. I'm also sure that there would be someone around who would be willing to at least help with further runs, regardless of that stipulation. Not everyone participates in the Jag community or creates Jag products for profit, you know.