17 replies to this topic

[MAYAman]

Back in the day there were several specialty controllers built just for particular games. Not even series of games, just one damn game. I am looking at my Tempest controllers I have for Jaguar and wonder how Atari could release that game without even thinking about releasing a rotary controller for it. I look at my colecovision and it has the custom controller that look like sword handles with the joystick on top, such a great controller. The several paddles I have for my 2600. The trackball controller for my colecovison. And so on.

I try to play some of the games in my Xbox 360 arcade and they are impossible without the help of a track ball, rotary, controller. I mean, if these companies could do this in the 70s and 80s, why can't billion dollar coprs like MS at least make some custom controllers for these games. It pisses me off so much. Ugh.

[Pete5125]

It is obvious Atari did little to none market research on the controller, it just so happened that they had a few left over after making their final computer and refused to design a new controler...Think how many people hated the Jag just because the controller looked weird...I actualy think the Pro-Controller is one of my favorite controllers for any system, but the stock controller was bad, and had they made an Arcade looking stick then that would of been super cool.

[save2600]

In defense of the PS1 and onward, with the dual analogue control sticks, at least you can get real analogue action that way. No, it's not a rotary or a trackball, but the thing is, I'm not sure how the public would cotton to custom controllers anymore. I wonder if people would think different controllers are gimmicky or just another product to waste your money on, all for the benefit of a game or two.

Indy 500 anyone? Then there's the Super Action Controllers for the Colecovision. 2600 Booster Grip.? The Starplex controller. Joyboard. NES's Arkanoid paddle. 2600 Kids controller and BASIC controllers. 5200's monolithic trackball. Atari XE lightgun. TI's MBX expansion. Sega's 3D glasses. IMO - Historically, the game companies screwed the pooch on these kinds of things. Between poor marketing and horrible 3rd or 1st party support... all it meant to the consumer was added expense, more things to lose, more wires to trip over and proprietary controllers that suited a super small library of games.

Can modern companies take a chance on releasing something as cool as a trackball anymore? I think they've all learned lessons from the past and besides, you can purchase arcade quality sticks and trackballs that are compatible with any of these systems in the form of the X-Arcade stuff and I'm sure there's others...

[Tyrant]

Uh... Guitar Hero anyone?

That's a pretty fscking specialist controller, and it's only good for one kind of game (all of which are essentially identical, except for the songs in each).

[Galeforcerm]

There is a mad catz retro joystick for 360 that has a paddle control built in. I got mine at blockbuster. Works great for warlords on xbox live arcade.

[Crazy Climber]

I always thought this one was pretty cool...

[Crazy Climber]

Oh, and this one...

[save2600]

Tyrant, on Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:55 AM, said:

Uh... Guitar Hero anyone?

That's a pretty fscking specialist controller, and it's only good for one kind of game (all of which are essentially identical, except for the songs in each).

No doubt arguing the success of the guitar hero controller. I wonder how the rest of the band stuff is doing though. Drums, mics, etc. Reason I didn't bring up Guitar Hero is because I think of it as a category all its own since there are several more apps (add on discs, can be used as a bass and is integrated in the Rock Band games as well) for it than the usual proprietary controller.

Steel Battalion for instance.... even though that thing rocks, can you use it for other mech, flight or tank style games? I'd like to see some super slick 360 games use that controller. Do any exist? IF not, what a shame

[A_Locomotive]

save2600, on Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:12 AM, said:

Steel Battalion for instance.... even though that thing rocks, can you use it for other mech, flight or tank style games? I'd like to see some super slick 360 games use that controller. Do any exist? IF not, what a shame

I always wanted to get Steel Battalion just so I could try out that amazing controller controller.

[danny_galaga]

Crazy Climber, on Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:42 AM, said:

Oh, and this one...
steel.jpg

Picked up one of these last year. It is sweet (",)

I haven't played it much recently, but things happen in phases for me. It is set up on its own table, so as soon as I feel the urge I can fire it up...

As far as I know, people have used it for a PC mecha game using some sort of patch to configure the controls. I think unless you can match every single function up, it's not worth the bother of using it for something else.

[Sauron]

A publisher or peripheral mfg will only make a specialty controller if there's deemed enough of a demand and market for it. Considering the Jag only sold several hundred thousand units, Atari (or anyone else for that matter) probably didn't deem it worth the effort to make a specialty controller for just one game. It's no surprise to me, really. I think we were lucky enough to get the ProController.

[danny_galaga]

Sauron, on Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:55 AM, said:

A publisher or peripheral mfg will only make a specialty controller if there's deemed enough of a demand and market for it. Considering the Jag only sold several hundred thousand units, Atari (or anyone else for that matter) probably didn't deem it worth the effort to make a specialty controller for just one game. It's no surprise to me, really. I think we were lucky enough to get the ProController.

That's not really the answer though. I doubt that Atari set out to only make 200,000 consoles. I'm sure they were aiming for millions. In which case, it might still seem a puzzle since there is most of the rotary code in Tempest. I've read that Atari didn't think of Tempest 2000 that highly, and that is the most likely reason. How wrong they were!

[Sauron]

danny_galaga, on Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:20 PM, said:

That's not really the answer though. I doubt that Atari set out to only make 200,000 consoles. I'm sure they were aiming for millions. In which case, it might still seem a puzzle since there is most of the rotary code in Tempest. I've read that Atari didn't think of Tempest 2000 that highly, and that is the most likely reason. How wrong they were!

It is the answer,though. Had there been more games published during the Jaguar's commercial lifespan that took advantage of a rotary controller, then I'm sure Atari or even a third party would have created one. As it was, Atari had many other things going on, such as the Jag CD, Pro Controller, and VR headseat, and I'm sure even they recognized the fact that there simply wouldn't be that kind of a demand for a specialty controller for one game. Had the Jag been more successful, and had it survived longer, it probably would have been a different story. Rumors of a rotary controller did float around a bit back in the day, and given enough time and enough of a market to warrant it, I'm sure at least some third party would have released one.

[Zerosquare]

The official developer documentation mentions a rotary controller (actually, they even call it "Tempest controller" !), as well as VR-style controllers and other types that were never released. So it's definitely something that Atari had envisioned. But like Sauron says, they had other things to worry about during the Jaguar era, as their company was going downhill quickly.

[Tyrant]

Zerosquare, on Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:28 PM, said:

The official developer documentation mentions a rotary controller (actually, they even call it "Tempest controller" !)

Yes but the controller described in techref wouldn't actually work with Tempest, so it's a good thing they didn't release it.

[Zerosquare]

They wouldn't ? I thought the description in the Atari docs essentially matched the way Tempest handles rotary controllers, except for the rotation direction (clockwise vs. counter-clockwise).

[Tyrant]

Sort of... it does some weird things with the addressing of it... essentially putting the rotary encoder on its own onto teamtap port B, thus leaving the d-pad and all the buttons on port A.

I seem to recall testing that configuration once, and I've looked through the T2k source and never once does it write the appropriate row codes to read from port B, so no, it doesn't work.

It's odd though, Yak did say he remembers writing auto-detection code, but looking though the source I couldn't find it anywhere (and other people have tested with the C2/C3 bits, and it doesn't auto-detect).

So, basically you can throw out that whole section. The only useful thing is the explanation of the quadrature encoding, which you should hook up to left and right in place of the d-pad. Oh and remember to read the pad (or at least the encoder) very often. Yak does it by PIT interrupt and when reading a rotary he reads it 8 times more often than just reading a d-pad.

Edited by Tyrant, Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:14 PM.

[danny_galaga]

Sauron, on Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:26 PM, said:

danny_galaga, on Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:20 PM, said:

That's not really the answer though. I doubt that Atari set out to only make 200,000 consoles. I'm sure they were aiming for millions. In which case, it might still seem a puzzle since there is most of the rotary code in Tempest. I've read that Atari didn't think of Tempest 2000 that highly, and that is the most likely reason. How wrong they were!

It is the answer,though. Had there been more games published during the Jaguar's commercial lifespan that took advantage of a rotary controller, then I'm sure Atari or even a third party would have created one. As it was, Atari had many other things going on, such as the Jag CD, Pro Controller, and VR headseat, and I'm sure even they recognized the fact that there simply wouldn't be that kind of a demand for a specialty controller for one game. Had the Jag been more successful, and had it survived longer, it probably would have been a different story. Rumors of a rotary controller did float around a bit back in the day, and given enough time and enough of a market to warrant it, I'm sure at least some third party would have released one.

That's still not the answer. Let's say the jaguar went on to sell a million units over the course of a few years. Why would they retrospectively then make a specialty controller for a game released some years before? I doubt there would have been any more rotary games released. They were angling for 3D games. If they had been really successful then I think they would have maybe concentrated on maybe an analog controller, and all games to work around that. Because if they were successful, they would only be looking ahead I would have thought. They would have realised they needed a lot more 3rd party developers. I can't see that there would have been many, or any, more rotary games. Why would a 3rd party make a game for a controller that doesn't exist? unless they made it themselves, which seems pretty unlikely.

(edit: I can argue against myself here and point out Steel Battalion, Guitar hero etc from above as reasons why a 3rd party would make a game for a controller that previously didn't exist . But would a 3rd party, back then, have made a controller for Tempest 2000? That's the heart of the matter)

The irony is that NOW, there are a number of 3rd party rotary controllers around, albeit not in large numbers being all cottage industry level. And I hear there is going to be a new game made that can use a rotary. But that is now, and not relevant to commercial decisions that might have been made 15 years ago. Back then there was half an idea they might make one (and hence the code in T2K) but they never bothered. Which is ok with me, it gives me something to do after work

Edited by danny_galaga, Wed May 25, 2011 8:55 AM.