16 replies to this topic

[A_Locomotive]

So I just won a copy of Baldies for the Jaguar CD. Was reading reviews of games looking for ones I might like and after reading a few reviews and watching a couple videos decided I'd give Baldies a try as it looked fun. Well stupid me, I some how completely missed in everything I read about it that its not a cartridge based game. Luckily I didn't spend a lot on it so no real harm done, and plus I got Iron Soldier from the same seller along with it also new for quite cheap with discounted shipping. So anyway would any body be interested in trading a CIB cartridge game for a new sealed copy of Baldies? If so let me know what you've got and when my copy of Baldies arrives we can trade. I'll also post photos of the games box when it arrives.

:edit:
Woops I'd imagine this should probably go down in the market place section of the forum that I just know noticed lol.

Edited by A_Locomotive, Fri Mar 4, 2011 4:42 PM.

[The_Laird]

Just keep it and get a Jag CD

[save2600]

I'll give you a mint/CIB copy of Hoverstrike for Baldies!

BTW: Hoverstrike is a kickass Jag game. Totally showcases what the system is capable of, almost as well as the Jaguar CD

[A_Locomotive]

The_Laird, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 5:12 PM, said:

Just keep it and get a Jag CD

You know the thought has crossed my mind as I'm going to eventually get a Jag CD, thing is that might be a long time from now(being out of work sucks!) which is why I'm looking to possibly trade if anyone has a game that interests me.

save2600, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 5:23 PM, said:

I'll give you a mint/CIB copy of Hoverstrike for Baldies!

BTW: Hoverstrike is a kickass Jag game. Totally showcases what the system is capable of, almost as well as the Jaguar CD

That is tempting, but I'm not going to make an decisions till it arrives. Any other games? I'd love a platformer like Zool 2 or Pitfall. Syndicate is another game I think looks interesting.

Edited by A_Locomotive, Fri Mar 4, 2011 6:05 PM.

[save2600]

A_Locomotive, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 5:57 PM, said:

That is tempting, but I'm not going to make an decisions till it arrives. Any other games? I'd love a platformer like Zool 2 or Pitfall.

Nah and I was just kidding. I really don't need Baldies (No JagCD). Heck, you can have my copy of Hoverstrike for free, just pay shipping on it. I can't give it away apparently and I'm literally just using it as a doorstop right now. No joke. Need a Cybermorph cartridge by any chance? If not, that's going to replace Hoverstrike as my next doorstop.



@Remo....

[remowilliams]

At a quick glance I read the topic as 'I'm an idiot, accidentally bought a Jaguar CD'

and I was about to offer my condolences...

[Austin]

In case you don't get a Jaguar CD but still want to try Baldies, you can get it mega-cheap for the original PlayStation.

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 250775874822

[The_Laird]

Austin, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 6:20 PM, said:

In case you don't get a Jaguar CD but still want to try Baldies, you can get it mega-cheap for the original PlayStation.

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 250775874822

I have the PS1 version and its like a cut down kiddies version. No where near as good.

Personally speaking I really like Hoverstrike and it is one of the few games that shows how well the Jag can do 3D with textures when programmed properly. That said however the CD version is soooo much better . . . .

[doctorclu]

I'm sure there has to be a way to make the CD fit that cartridge slot....

[kool kitty89]

The_Laird, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 6:49 PM, said:

Austin, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 6:20 PM, said:

In case you don't get a Jaguar CD but still want to try Baldies, you can get it mega-cheap for the original PlayStation.

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 250775874822

I have the PS1 version and its like a cut down kiddies version. No where near as good.

Personally speaking I really like Hoverstrike and it is one of the few games that shows how well the Jag can do 3D with textures when programmed properly. That said however the CD version is soooo much better . . . .

Seeing what the GPU can push with column based renderers (ray-casting based height maps like Doom or the more complex interpolated height map of Phase Zero or Atari Owl's project -not sure if owl's is interpolated) is the most impressive on the system. I think AVP is doing that too (I can't imagine they'd have used the Blitter's texture mapping feature for that -at least it would have been a bad move performance wise), though it's not nearly as optimzied and rather choppy compared to Doom or Wolf3D. (especially since the game engine itself seems no more complex than Wolf3D, just with more textures and use of floor/ceiling textures, but the same limited 90 degree grid type maps like Wolf3D -ie not even like Gloom on the Amiga with diagonal walls)

The jag has hardware texture mapping and you even see it a little in Club Drive (you can see the texture warping), but it's slow (one of the few features of the blitter that's totally unbuffered -not even a word buffer), rather like the Saturn's VDP1. (which is only reasonably fast as it has multiple buses/banks of fast SDRAM and no contention, I think the 3DO had a 32-bit word buffer for textures but maybe it was unbuffered like the Saturn and Jaguar -and with bandwidth/contention issues closer to the Jag than the Saturn)


It's a shame that Jag developers hadn't pushed hard for height map based engines (voxels and Doom/wolf3D type spans using constant Z texture rendering) with sparing use of polygons (even more so for affine rendered textures -it has very fast and smooth gouraud shading in CRY color mode, almost as fast as plain flat shading) and probably heavy use of scaled sprites -Phase Zero only has voxels and sprites, though 2D objects and textures eat up a lot of ROM space -even compressed- compared to code, maps, and 3D models. Even primitive Commanche quality voxels would have been pretty impressive for early jag games (with gradual evolution of such for later games).

Imagine if Cybermorph had been designed from the ground up with voxel terrain like Commanche with sparing use of shaded (maybe some texture mapped) polygons and sprite stuff. (preferably using Doom type columns/spans in place of polygons for any ground model applicable for such -buildings, etc) The later Amok is a good example of a combined voxel/polygon renderer. (though it's much more primitive than what Phase Zero pushed -but that avoids polygons too)
They probably should have pushed for a Commache port as well.

Can you imagine Cybermorph with Commanche-like voxel terrain and a higher framerate (maybe longer draw distance even)?



That also would have been pushing something that only PCs (in software) and the Jag would really be capable at: later 3D consoles had hardware focused mainly on polygon based rendering (as did the 3DO -albeit using quads rather than trips like the Saturn and Sega's arcade boards). The Saturn actually had enough CPU grunt (and a general purpose DSP coprocessor in the SCU) to make it fairly flexible for such as well (if pushed), but it really wasn't pushed in that direction and the Jag's GPU is much faster at those sort of things than the Saturn's SH2s (not sure about the DSP, but it was poorly doccumented/supported iirc and tough to program as with most DSPs -unlike the CPU-like nature of the Jag's RISC cores, buggy, but MUCH more programmer friendly than most normal DSPs of the time like in the Falcon, Super FX, SVP chip, various arcade boards, etc -I think Hitachi's SH-DSP line may have pushed more towards that sort of programmability)

[Austin]

kool kitty89, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 9:36 PM, said:

The later Amok is a good example of a combined voxel/polygon renderer. (though it's much more primitive than what Phase Zero pushed -but that avoids polygons too)They probably should have pushed for a Commache port as well.

When you mentioned voxels I immediately thought Amok, but you beat me to it, haha. That's certainly a good example, as it runs at a blazing framerate for a 32-bit game (and as you noted, it has a mixture of textured polygons, too). More games would have run in a much more fluid manner during this generation had they used this method (including Jag titles!).

[Zerosquare]

kool kitty89, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 9:36 PM, said:

The jag has hardware texture mapping

Not really. It's just a 2D zoom/rotation feature, and to do 3D you have to break each triangle into segments, then draw then one by one. It can't draw a complete texture-mapped (or even flat-shaded, for that matter) triangle by itself.

[phaxda]

You know, the proper action here is to complain to the eBay seller that the game don't work, demand your money back and then refuse to return the game because you shouldn't have to pay for the return shipping.

If you'd bought it from me, that's probably how it would go anyway...

I wish more people would accept responsibility for their own little mistakes.

[save2600]

A_Locomotive, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 5:57 PM, said:

I'd love a platformer like Zool 2 or Pitfall. Syndicate is another game I think looks interesting.

Zool 2 is good, but plays a wee bit too fast. I ended up giving my copy to a buddy here and if I want to play Zool 2, I can play it on the Amiga proper. The Amiga plays it at the correct speed.

Pitfall! was not my cup of tea either. Nothing like the original as it's pretty much just a vertical jump fest. Some people really like this game though.

Syndicate is based on a computer game and is best played on a computer. If you like these types of games though, go for it. Theme Park is also for the Jag, but you can't save your game in progress! Lame. Another title that's best played on a computer anyway.

There's lots of threads here talking about good Jag games, but a quick list of great titles would include:

Super Burnout
Power Drive Rally
Defender 2000 (in classic mode)
Missile Command 3D
Tempest 2000
Breakout 2000 (I wish true analog rotary support was built in like Tempest though)
Battlesphere
Cannon Fodder (this actually translated pretty well considering it's a computer port again)
Doom
Castle Wolfenstein (plays a little too fast, but still fun)
Iron Soldier
NBA Jam
Pinball Fantasies
Protector
Raiden
Rayman
Total Carnage
Zero 5
Ultra Vortek
Kasumi Ninja (gets a lot of flack, but I like it)
AvP
Battlemorph (JagCD game, best game for the attachment IMO)
Sensible Soccer

[thund3r]

A_Locomotive, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 4:36 PM, said:

So I just won a copy of Baldies for the Jaguar CD. Was reading reviews of games looking for ones I might like and after reading a few reviews and watching a couple videos decided I'd give Baldies a try as it looked fun. Well stupid me, I some how completely missed in everything I read about it that its not a cartridge based game. Luckily I didn't spend a lot on it so no real harm done, and plus I got Iron Soldier from the same seller along with it also new for quite cheap with discounted shipping. So anyway would any body be interested in trading a CIB cartridge game for a new sealed copy of Baldies? If so let me know what you've got and when my copy of Baldies arrives we can trade. I'll also post photos of the games box when it arrives.

:edit:
Woops I'd imagine this should probably go down in the market place section of the forum that I just know noticed lol.

How many gold pieces are you looking to trade for it? PM me if you'd rather not discuss it here.

[Pong]

doctorclu, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 8:49 PM, said:

I'm sure there has to be a way to make the CD fit that cartridge slot....

Fine, I'll get the hammer. Turns out that you can't use soldering irons with trinitromethylbenzene (sp?) anymore.

[kool kitty89]

Austin, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 9:51 PM, said:

kool kitty89, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 9:36 PM, said:

The later Amok is a good example of a combined voxel/polygon renderer. (though it's much more primitive than what Phase Zero pushed -but that avoids polygons too)They probably should have pushed for a Commache port as well.

When you mentioned voxels I immediately thought Amok, but you beat me to it, haha. That's certainly a good example, as it runs at a blazing framerate for a 32-bit game (and as you noted, it has a mixture of textured polygons, too). More games would have run in a much more fluid manner during this generation had they used this method (including Jag titles!).

Yeah, and interestingly there's a demo of Amok's renderer on the 32x from the Scanvenger teams' demo. (Zyrinx and Lemon were the 2 32x developers working on Scavenger projects and you see Lemon's Amok demo in the Scavenger 32x demo tape posted online in several places)

I haven't played Amok myself though, and I'm not sure it did any Doom/Duke3D (etc) type height map portions. (again, a really nice engine pushed on a CPU/DSP -ie Jag RISC- resource heavy platform -PC/Jag/32x/Pippin- would really have been best to push faster "3D" methods that other platforms couldn't accelerate in hardware -though the Saturn has more bandwidth/CPU/DSP power than the 32x -N64 might have done very well at such too with an RSP microcode implementation aimed at such sheer flexibility)

I think Outcast uses doom-like height mapped spans for some buildings/objects as well as the voxel terrain, water effects engine, and polygon renderer. (that's a really neat example and one of the last purely software rendered PC games -aside from some Java/Flash stuff- )
Of course, if hardware acceleration on PCs had focused on flexibility (powerful DSP/GPU along with moderate blitter based acceleration for 2D/3D textures/objects/shading), you could have seen all that done without excessive CPU resource on PCs. (granted, later gen GPUs actually did push for such flexibility -more like the Jag in some respects- but by then "real 3D" had become the norm -though to this day there are many cases -like most ground/on-foot/vehicle based 1st/3rd person games- where you could use voxel terrain instead of polygons without any added limitations; other games would be a bit constrained by height map rendering though)

Zerosquare, on Sat Mar 5, 2011 11:06 AM, said:

kool kitty89, on Fri Mar 4, 2011 9:36 PM, said:

The jag has hardware texture mapping

Not really. It's just a 2D zoom/rotation feature, and to do 3D you have to break each triangle into segments, then draw then one by one. It can't draw a complete texture-mapped (or even flat-shaded, for that matter) triangle by itself.

Yes, exactly, that's hardware texture mapping, or more accurately: affine line texture rendering. (as much as the gouraud shading is hardware as well -or plain line filling for solid shaded polys)

Texture mapping isn't a 3D thing, it's 2D, you need more than that for 3D.


The Jag has no hardware for warped primitive (triangle or quad) rasterization, true, but that's a separate issue from texture mapping. (ie it can't do flat shaded polys in hardware either -needs the GPU to set every single line for the blitter to fill, just like you'd need to for textures)

The problem is that texture mapping is unbuffered and thus slow due both to having to work with single words at a time (8 or 16 bits -no support for 4 bit sources iirc) and dealing with page breaks all the time since there's no line buffering or separate source and destination.
With buffering like you've got for gouraud shading, texture mapped polygonal 3D would be almost as fast as solid shaded 3D.

That lack of buffering is also a great hindrance to rendering rotating sprites or a warped BG plane. Hell, if the blitter's texture mapping feature was fully buffered, the need to have the OPL at all would be much less.
You could then render everything with the blitter at pretty high speed and have high speed rotation/warping effects for textures as well -OPL can only stretch/zoom, maybe more so if there was a special high-speed mode for the blitter that disallowed rotation like the Saturn's single point VDP1 "sprites" or the PSX's 2D mode (rendering rectangular object "sprite" cells of any size that could be stretched/scaled but not rotated, thus approaching 100% of the 133 MB/s bandwidth for 2D drawing -sort of like the restriction of the OPL to only doing scaled rectangular objects except you'd be sharing the same logic of the blitter and it wouldn't be as flexible as the OPL for 2D -the PSX's "sprite mode" itself is superficially similar to what the OPL displays or sort of what the Neo Geo does in the sense that it's all sprites -but a big difference compared to the NG's hardware sprite logic).
That's what gave the PSX an advantage in 2D over the Saturn in some cases too: the Saturn has a powerful tilemap based BG engine (4 planes with lots of flexibility), but the PSX smokes the Saturn's VDP1 in pure 2D drawing (and texture mapping in general), so a sprite heavy game (or a game not highly optimized to use the tilemap BGs of the Saturn) would thus favor the PSX. (the fact that PC GPUs and many other blitter type systems worked in such a fashion -and tilemap based consoles/arcade machines were becoming proportionally less common- that also favored the PSX for many multiplatform 2D games for PC and such -and many such games directly ported to the Saturn using VDP1 would likely suffer from slowdown due to bandwidth limitations)




Of course, all of that is worthless for a game like doom or duke nukem 3D. (those are all column based renderers and thus only the scaled 2D objects would be any good for affine texture rendering -which the Jag's OPL can handle fine) You'd either need a fast CPU/DSP to handle the raycasting and vertical column (constant Z) texture rendering, or you'd need to rebuild the engines to support polygons as well as use software perspective correction to avoid distortion. (PSX Doom did that, 3DO Doom probably would have been much better if it used quads rather than CPU rendering -didn't help that you could only code to 3DO's C libraries/OS and that 3DO Doom didn't allow a low-detail option for 1/2 horizontal res a la PC/Jag/32x/SNES -Saturn Doom was a sloppy PSX port and coupld have been better with a properly optimized Quad renderer like Duke Nukem 3D on the Saturn or a CPU/DSP based raycasting renderer)

Edited by kool kitty89, Mon Mar 7, 2011 1:23 AM.