21 replies to this topic

[Tyrant]

Random question number two hundred and eighty seven: When was the pro controller released? (on either side of the atlantic)

Magazine scans relating to its release would be even better.

[save2600]

I didn't see 'em until late '95.

[Zerosquare]

Tyrant : are you making some kind of Jaguar-themed trivia game ?

[sh3-rg]

Zerosquare, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:47 PM, said:

Tyrant : are you making some kind of Jaguar-themed trivia game ?

If so, we know where to come for all the answers

[Sauron]

save2600, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:18 AM, said:

I didn't see 'em until late '95.

That seems about right. Don't remember it being announced until summer, and of course Atari never seemed to be in a big rush to release anything.

[kevincal]

October 1995 from my research which I put together here.

http://www.atariage....ctory-timeline/

[Tyrant]

kevincal, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:06 PM, said:

October 1995 from my research which I put together here.

http://www.atariage....ctory-timeline/

That's great but you don't cite a single source, there's no way to verify your timeline.

[save2600]

Tyrant, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:24 PM, said:

kevincal, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:06 PM, said:

October 1995 from my research which I put together here.

http://www.atariage....ctory-timeline/

That's great but you don't cite a single source, there's no way to verify your timeline.

I know I've got my receipt from Kay*Bee around here somewhere

[Tyrant]

save2600, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:39 PM, said:

Tyrant, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:24 PM, said:

That's great but you don't cite a single source, there's no way to verify your timeline.

I know I've got my receipt from Kay*Bee around here somewhere

That wouldn't show a release date anyway. Documenting the source of knowledge is just as important as the knowledge itself, it lends credibility to your claims and reduces the potential for arguments.

[kevincal]

Tyrant, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:24 PM, said:

kevincal, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:06 PM, said:

October 1995 from my research which I put together here.

http://www.atariage....ctory-timeline/

That's great but you don't cite a single source, there's no way to verify your timeline.

Right, like you think I just fucking lied about all these dates? Don't you notice how some dates are exact and some are not? These dates all came from official sources. Give me a break, it was enough work just finding this information... I am not a liar, you are just going to have to trust me. Really your comment is quite pathetic when all I tried to do was help you in your little search... And I put together the timeline for everyone's enjoyment and it did take quite awhile, so thanks for giving me absolutely no appreciation / benefit of the doubt and insulting me / calling me a liar at the same time.

Edited by kevincal, Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:50 PM.

[Sauron]

kevincal, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:49 PM, said:

Right, like you think I just blah blah blah....

Was that kind of a response really necessary? There's a difference between saying he can't verify the timeline and calling you an outright liar.

[save2600]

Tyrant, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:46 PM, said:

save2600, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:39 PM, said:

Tyrant, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:24 PM, said:

That's great but you don't cite a single source, there's no way to verify your timeline.

I know I've got my receipt from Kay*Bee around here somewhere

That wouldn't show a release date anyway. Documenting the source of knowledge is just as important as the knowledge itself, it lends credibility to your claims and reduces the potential for arguments.

I see what you're saying, but narrowing down a specific release date might be tricky as I'm sure it varied geographically. I was quite active in all things Jaguar at the time and spent a lot of time shopping/hunting down the stuff on a retail level. As soon as the Pro Controller was made available in the midwest, I snagged two of 'em. October '95 seems realistic, but you're right. I do not know when Atari's official rollout of the controller was made available to retailers across certain parts of the world.

[Agent X]

Tyrant, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:24 PM, said:

kevincal, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:06 PM, said:

October 1995 from my research which I put together here.

http://www.atariage....ctory-timeline/

That's great but you don't cite a single source, there's no way to verify your timeline.

I'm going to go with October 1995, also. I might still have my receipt stashed away somewhere (still have a few receipts even from back then), but don't have time to dig for it right now.

My basis for this is doing a Google Groups search for the terms "Jaguar" and "ProController" on the rec.games.video.atari Usenet newsgroup. You have to figure that there was a lot of chatter and discussion about the Jaguar on the newsgroups back then. Just look for references to the ProController, and to instances when people started reporting seeing or using one.

For what it's worth, here's a post from October 15, 1995 announcing that it was shipping.

[Tyrant]

kevincal, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:49 PM, said:

Tyrant, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:24 PM, said:

That's great but you don't cite a single source, there's no way to verify your timeline.

Right, like you think I just fucking lied about all these dates? Don't you notice how some dates are exact and some are not? These dates all came from official sources. Give me a break, it was enough work just finding this information... I am not a liar, you are just going to have to trust me. Really your comment is quite pathetic when all I tried to do was help you in your little search... And I put together the timeline for everyone's enjoyment and it did take quite awhile, so thanks for giving me absolutely no appreciation / benefit of the doubt and insulting me / calling me a liar at the same time.

FFS Man! I did not in any way call you a liar or imply you were wrong, just, as Sauron pointed out, said that I can't verify your facts, and, since I'm trying to write an academic paper on the Jaguar and its history, verifiable facts are something of a necessity.

You really need to chill the fuck out.

Any hope you had of people taking your "research" seriously will disappear in an instant when you start making wild rants at the first hint of professional scrutiny. If you still have your notes from that "research" (I put it in quotes since any researcher worth his title would know the importance of citing sources), I would strongly urge you to go back, verify your sources, and then cite them, otherwise your timeline is only useful as a rough estimation of a guide, or in other words, as vague as asking the residents of an old-folks home what they remember about history.

[Tyrant]

Agent X, on Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:12 PM, said:

For what it's worth, here's a post from October 15, 1995 announcing that it was shipping.

That is worth loads to me. Have yourself a rep point and the promise of a cookie (or a beer) if I ever meet you in person.

Thank you!

[kevincal]

oh wow look i wasn't talking out of my ass. anyone with fingers and eyes can find out anything on the internet in the matter of minutes. so dont go creating a topic asking a question and then when you get someone taking their time to answer doubt them or insinuate they are full of it. This is video games we are talking here, im not going to waste my time with listing sources every time I answer a friggen question... i figure being a long time forum member here and obviously long time jag fan should be worth something but I guess some people have sticks wedged firmly in their proper ass.

The reason Tyrants response to me rubbed me the wrong way is because basically he's saying "your timeline is worthless because I dont trust the dates you listed". Thats how it read to me. Which pisses me off cus I spent a good amount of time searching the web to put it all together. I didnt list sources because there were many sources and it's not like anyone deserves credit for being the first person to know the date some video game was released. That is public knowledge. The difference is I spent the time to put all that info together to form a Jaguar time line which nobody else has ever created a Jag time line anywhere near as extensive as the one I put together which is the reason I did it. Glad most people appreciate it.

Edited by kevincal, Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:17 AM.

[Sauron]

kevincal, on Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:09 AM, said:

oh wow look i wasn't talking out of my ass. anyone with fingers and eyes can find out anything on the internet in the matter of minutes. so dont go creating a topic asking a question and then when you get someone taking their time to answer doubt them or insinuate they are full of it. This is video games we are talking here, im not going to waste my time with listing sources every time I answer a friggen question... i figure being a long time forum member here and obviously long time jag fan should be worth something but I guess some people have sticks wedged firmly in their proper ass.

Tyrant said:

I'm trying to write an academic paper on the Jaguar and its history, verifiable facts are something of a necessity.

Needing verifiable facts in no way constitutes a "stick up his ass". While no one here (including Tyrant himself) thinks you're lying about it or making it up, that same gesture of trust wouldn't quite be extended to him should he cite his source as "someone on the Internet who knows some things about the Jag". Your reactions to him are entirely unwarranted.

[Tyrant]

kevincal, on Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:09 AM, said:

oh wow look i wasn't talking out of my ass. anyone with fingers and eyes can find out anything on the internet in the matter of minutes. so dont go creating a topic asking a question and then when you get someone taking their time to answer doubt them or insinuate they are full of it. This is video games we are talking here, im not going to waste my time with listing sources every time I answer a friggen question... i figure being a long time forum member here and obviously long time jag fan should be worth something but I guess some people have sticks wedged firmly in their proper ass.

Try taking that attitude to wikipedia and see how far it gets you, or better yet, go to college/university and try it on there.

Also (although I'm not sure why I'm still talking to you), for your information I did search, repeatedly, and after two days of finding nothing I came here to ask, because I knew AA to be full of helpful, knowledgeable, and above all friendly people.

[Tyrant]

Replying to edited bits:

kevincal, on Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:09 AM, said:

The reason Tyrants response to me rubbed me the wrong way is because basically he's saying "your timeline is worthless because I dont trust the dates you listed". Thats how it read to me. Which pisses me off cus I spent a good amount of time searching the web to put it all together. I didnt list sources because there were many sources and it's not like anyone deserves credit for being the first person to know the date some video game was released. That is public knowledge. The difference is I spent the time to put all that info together to form a Jaguar time line which nobody else has ever created a Jag time line anywhere near as extensive as the one I put together which is the reason I did it. Glad most people appreciate it.

As Sauron just said, it's not that I personally don't trust your dates, (as it happens, I did trust them until you started ranting at me, now I'm not so sure), it's that any fact, be it about Jaguar history or world history, science, engineering, knitting, whatever. Any fact is only useful if someone else, maybe in ten or twenty years time, can come along and say "This is true, and I know that it's true because ...."

What your timeline is, is you looking at the historical evidence, and saying "This is true", and when someone asks "how do you know that?" you start going on a rant saying that they are "just going to have to trust you" because you are "a long time forum member". Well sorry, but that doesn't exactly cut it in most circles.

[Tyrant]

kevincal, on Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:09 AM, said:

I didnt list sources because there were many sources and it's not like anyone deserves credit for being the first person to know the date some video game was released. That is public knowledge.

One last thing: You really seem not to understand what counts as a source.

Quote

A primary source is a document or physical object which was written or created during the time under study. These sources were present during an experience or time period and offer an inside view of a particular event. Some types of primary sources include:
ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS (excerpts or translations acceptable): Diaries, speeches, manuscripts, letters, interviews, news film footage, autobiographies, official records
CREATIVE WORKS: Poetry, drama, novels, music, art
RELICS OR ARTIFACTS: Pottery, furniture, clothing, buildings

What is a secondary source?
A secondary source interprets and analyzes primary sources. These sources are one or more steps removed from the event. Secondary sources may have pictures, quotes or graphics of primary sources in them. Some types of seconday sources include:
PUBLICATIONS: Textbooks, magazine articles, histories, criticisms, commentaries, encyclopedias

Citing your sources is not about "giving credit", but about gaining credibility, something you seem to be entirely lacking in. Note how in the extract above, I included the url I obtained it from? Also note how it is from a rather prestigious american university? Sure it happened to be the first hit google returned, and sure anyone can find out more about what constitutes a reliable source, as opposed to hearsay, but do you note that when given the context from whence the information comes, it gives it a more authoritative tone? The link Agent X posted earlier is a historical record, and as such must be considered fairly authoritative. While it confirms the date you said, the important part is not the date, but the authoritative proof of that date.

P.S. Yes I know there is an edit button, which would avoid me having to tripple-post, but since the subject at hand concerns historical records, it seems bad form to amend the records of my own words.

[Tyrant]

Gah! The attribution of that extract failed to show up, it should have been attibuted to http://www.princeton...k/primary2.html

Make that quad-post... maybe the edit button isn't so bad after all?

[Sauron]

And I do believe that the subject of whether or not kevincal's timeline is reliable as a source for academic papers has been exhausted. Please keep any further posts here towards any more verifiable evidence of the date of the ProController's release.