20 replies to this topic

[danny_galaga]

Just letting you guys know that although I haven't been pushing the product as much as I should, the T2K Commander rotary controllers are still being made (",)

http://dannygalaga.com/shop.html

Check it out if you haven't heard of them.

Edited by danny_galaga, Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:09 AM.

[danny_galaga]

Just letting you guys know that I will be going overseas Sunday 8th, so I won't be able to fill any orders while I'm away. Good news is I'll only be away 2 weeks. You can still place an order in the meantime of course...

[Stephen Moss]

If you have not been doing so you should include the diode required to make it identify itself as a rotary.
That way programmers who write games that support both rotary and standard controllers can identify it and make the game automatically use the appropriate controller read, otherwise you have to go the same (unnecessary) nonsence as with T2K to get the rotary working.

[Tyrant]

Afaik T2k doesn't auto-detect anyway, even with the C2/C3 bits set correctly. I know for a fact it doesn't support the techref rotary (which uses teamtap port B) as I've grepped my way through it's source. I didn't see any auto-detection either, although Yak says he thought he had put some in.
Also it's really not very hard for other games to detect rotaries by looking to see if both left and right are ever pressed at the same time, and most rotaries don't use the C2/C3 identifiers anyway.

[Zerosquare]

Yes, as far as I know, none of homebrew rotaries implement the C2/C3 bits, and no game uses them for detection, so it's a bit late for that unfortunately.

[danny_galaga]

Yep, you guys designing new rotary games will just have to put an options menu in. Not that hard

[Stephen Moss]

Tyrant, on Mon May 2, 2011 2:47 AM, said:

Afaik T2k doesn't auto-detect anyway, even with the C2/C3 bits set correctly. I know for a fact it doesn't support the techref rotary (which uses teamtap port B) as I've grepped my way through it's source. I didn't see any auto-detection either, although Yak says he thought he had put some in.
Also it's really not very hard for other games to detect rotaries by looking to see if both left and right are ever pressed at the same time, and most rotaries don't use the C2/C3 identifiers anyway.

I am aware that T2K does not auto detect I tried it with my rotary, perhaps Jeff was mistaken as you say he only thought he put it in, or perhaps he removed it when it did not work as whoever bodged his rotary together was also to lax with regard to following the ID specifications.
I am also aware that being a modified standard controllers and not what Atari whatever invisioned it to be that all current rotaries do not use socket 1 row codes (although why Atari invisioned it as a bankswitching controller when there was clearly no need according to the allbeit possibly early developement stage information we have is a mystery). This issue has been addressed in the TechRef V10 document.

Zerosquare, on Mon May 2, 2011 6:10 AM, said:

Yes, as far as I know, none of homebrew rotaries implement the C2/C3 bits, and no game uses them for detection, so it's a bit late for that unfortunately.

Not really, there is no reason why new for sale rotaries should not have them. Those already out there can be easily retro fitted with them by almost anyone with access to a soldering iron, instructions are provided in the TechRef V10 document.

danny_galaga, on Mon May 2, 2011 6:51 AM, said:

Yep, you guys designing new rotary games will just have to put an options menu in. Not that hard

Not that hard but...
a) They should be following the documentation (as should hardware developers) as it exists to ensure hardware and software compatability, if every one just ignores it and does their own thing nothing will ever work.
b) Why should they have to compensate for other peoples alacrity.

[CyranoJ]

Stephen Moss, on Thu May 5, 2011 2:16 AM, said:

a) They should be following the documentation (as should hardware developers) as it exists to ensure hardware and software compatability, if every one just ignores it and does their own thing nothing will ever work.

You are kidding, right? The documentation is a joke.

Quote

b) Why should they have to compensate for other peoples alacrity.

Because compensating for other peoples alacrity goes hand in hand with working on this console.

TBH, why add detection code that won't work with nearly every rotary built ? Whats the point? Simple keypad press to toggle. Job done. Pennies saved on parts. Everyone happy.

[danny_galaga]

CyranoJ, on Thu May 5, 2011 4:08 AM, said:

TBH, why add detection code that won't work with nearly every rotary built ? Whats the point? Simple keypad press to toggle. Job done. Pennies saved on parts. Everyone happy.

As well as save much time. The controllers are made piece-meal. Pretty much all are made to use on T2K, makes sense to me that new games would mimic T2K to be backward compatible with all existing rotaries...

[Tyrant]

danny_galaga, on Fri May 6, 2011 7:17 AM, said:

As well as save much time. The controllers are made piece-meal. Pretty much all are made to use on T2K, makes sense to me that new games would mimic T2K to be backward compatible with all existing rotaries...

Exactly, T2k, as the only game that supports them so far, defined the standard, and the published material can be safely ignored.

Also CJ, as well as a keypad button to toggle it, throw in one simple extra check please: when parsing joypad input, if you ever detect both left and right pressed at the same time, switch to rotary input. You can do that only on the menu to be safe, but it's a pretty reliable method of auto-detecting rotaries, as it shows up 1/4 of the time, and people will twist the knob to try see if it works before they look for an enable button.

[Atari Smeghead]

Just to give Danny G. his props, I reiterate the fact that I find the T2K Commander to be a top notch rotary. The rocker bar is a great idea. Just saying if anyone is on the fence over this controller, stop straddling that darn fence and get yourself one!

Hmmm... I'm done with college until June 4th, so methinks a game or two of T2K is in order.

Cheers,
Smeg

[CyranoJ]

Tyrant, on Fri May 6, 2011 8:11 AM, said:

Also CJ, as well as a keypad button to toggle it, throw in one simple extra check please: when parsing joypad input, if you ever detect both left and right pressed at the same time, switch to rotary input.

I will add that to Rebooteroids, and remove the toggle command. Possibly add a menu option to switch back to normal Jagpad control if required.

[Stephen Moss]

CyranoJ, on Thu May 5, 2011 4:08 AM, said:

You are kidding, right? The documentation is a joke.

While I have not read all the documentation and have just started on the SoftRef I could not really see anything wrong with the Gstarted, Techover, Qsound and TechRef with the exception of the nonsense regarding pass through connectors turning off when Team-Taps are in use.
While the documenation may not be perfect at least I am trying to do something about it and not just dismiss it out of hand.

Tyrant, on Fri May 6, 2011 8:11 AM, said:

Exactly, T2k, as the only game that supports them so far, defined the standard, and the published material can be safely ignored.

An "it was first so it defines the standard" defence is not a very robust argument as it does not account for any errors or oversights that may have crept in to the original and presumes that a better way does/will not exist. While I could list a number of good reason why it is not a good argument it is clear we will not agree on this so why bother.

Tyrant, on Fri May 6, 2011 8:11 AM, said:

Also CJ, as well as a keypad button to toggle it, throw in one simple extra check please: when parsing Joypad input, if you ever detect both left and right pressed at the same time, switch to rotary input. You can do that only on the menu to be safe, but it's a pretty reliable method of auto-detecting rotaries, as it shows up 1/4 of the time, and people will twist the knob to try see if it works before they look for an enable button.

Those would appear to be rather weak and unreliable tests. While the number of mouse controllers out there is small and no other controllers currently exist (though that may change) it is certainly not impossible for a standard or future controller to produce the equivalent keypad press nor is it inconceivable that a mouse or future controller may also output data that sets the equivalent bits for L & R low simultaneously (or replicate whatever data pattern you care to look for) and thereby cause that controller to be miss identified.

Whatever you think about fitting the diode to existing and new rotaries so they operate as intended in regard to the controller ID subject as a whole to deny that Atari got it right is beyond insanity.

[LinkoVitch]

Just my couple of pence.

Regardless wether hardware detection is employed or not, I would be strongly in favour of a manual override/setting for controller type, possibly with the option to disable auto configuration. In my line of work it is common practice to disable auto config pretty much throughout, as when it goes wrong it creates more headaches than it is worth long term, and this is on cutting edge technologies.

All in favour of auto config and detection, but would prefer the ability to be able to manually select controller types also. Makes a handy failsafe and allows people without 'standards' compliant devices to still enjoy the code.

[CyranoJ]

I'm sorry, what? There *IS* a standard, it's the one WITHOUT the diode, as evidenced by the vast majority of Jaguar rotaries in the world, to imply the diode version is the standard because someone, somewhere, once wrote it down in a manual, but nobody else ever followed it is complete insanity.

Quote

An "it was first so it defines the standard" defence is not a very robust argument

And yet, that is your argument because the documentation with this in came before any code. Also, I'd like to think people are clever enough to know if they plugged a mouse into a rotary game it's not going to work.

The "standard" is the status quo. In this case, no diode. Although, to be fair, I don't really care either way because I won't be checking for it anyway (And I bet nobody else does either). So if you'd like to add one, go ahead

[Tyrant]

CJ I agree wholeheartedly except for one thing.

CyranoJ, on Fri May 13, 2011 2:51 AM, said:

Also, I'd like to think people are clever enough to know if they plugged a mouse into a rotary game it's not going to work.

A bus mouse plugged in would report horizontal movement in a way that is identical to rotary input. You'd probably lack a sufficient number of buttons, and it would probably be rather sensitive, as mice tend to use more pulses per revolution and a lot more revolutions per inch or work, but the method is the same.

[danny_galaga]

I'm back from holidays and rearing to make more T2K Commanders. Already got an order while I was away so that's good (",)

After that there is a definite 4 more to be had...

[CyranoJ]

Tyrant, on Fri May 6, 2011 8:11 AM, said:

Also CJ, as well as a keypad button to toggle it, throw in one simple extra check please: when parsing joypad input, if you ever detect both left and right pressed at the same time, switch to rotary input.

Done Thanks for the suggestion, works a treat.

[danny_galaga]

Just uploaded some vids of the controller

Here



and here



(",)

This took me hours with a bloody old camera perched in my lap, and a spotlight perched on my leg, and having to upload each and every take onto my pc each time because there was only enough memory for ten seonds. So I'm no Spielberg

[Tyrant]

Interesting. That 3-way rocker looks very interesting.

[sermajic]

I have to let you know that the controller is amazing, i will be ordering another one asap