26 replies to this topic

[SS]

Adrian's Hozer question has gotten me thinking about the H and R ratings that AtariAge gives to new carts.

For example, currently both "Elevator Action" and "Crack'ed" are listed with a rating of R (for reproduction). However, "Elevator Action" sells for some hefty bucks on eBay whereas "Crack'ed" is still available from the Digital Press web page. Should they really both be listed as a rather generic R?

Homebrews have the same problem. "Marble Craze" is readily available for $25 from the AtariAge store. The "Cuttle Cart" would likely sell for a couple of hundred if any of the owners of one would stupidly offer it for sale. Still, both are listed in the rarity guide as an H.

How about hacks on cart? I have both a Hozer "A Better Pac-Man" and an AtariAge "Pac-Man Arcade". Same game but with different names and labels. To my mind, this is a legitimate label variation that should be documented in some way.

Plus, where should Homebrews, Reproductions, and Hacks on cart fit into the whole scheme of things? They are (or have been) for sale. They certainly seem every bit as legitimate of releases as a game that you could get in the 80s with proof-of-purchase from dog food bags.

Thoughts?

[Happy_Dude]

We buy a lot of Dog Food How about some AA store credit


I think its H if its still for sale. So the cuttle cart (which I would literally
kill for) Should be a rarity 10.

But Homebrews are on Eprom so they arn't really "Proper" carts
and shouldn't be treated as such Mabye

[CPUWIZ]

Happy_Dude said:

But Homebrews are on Eprom so they arn't really "Proper" carts  
and shouldn't be treated as such      Mabye

Errm, several companies used EPROM's almost exclusively to manufacture their carts in the "Proper" days.

Would you say that the Tigervision 4K games aren't "Proper" games ?

[Marco(2)]

I wouldn't 'impose' any rarity nor value scale on homebrews, hacks or reproductions. IMHO they should in no way be compared with the 'originals', they are a league of their own, where other rules apply.

Indeed, giving a new game a '10' would be an insult to Air Raid and Video Life c.s.

Cheers,
Marco

[Marc Oberhäuser]

@Marco
Agreed.

Marc

[MegaManFan]

Marco said:

I wouldn't 'impose' any rarity nor value scale on homebrews, hacks or reproductions. IMHO they should in no way be compared with the 'originals', they are a league of their own, where other rules apply.  

Indeed, giving a new game a '10' would be an insult to Air Raid and Video Life c.s.  

Cheers,
Marco

I agree on principle Marco, but I don't think it's that simple. There should be SOME acknowledgement that Cubicolor is harder to acquire than Marble Craze. I've come up with a pretty good solution though:

L: Limited series. A homebrew that's out of production, limited to XX carts.

UL: Unlimited series. A homebrew that's currently in production with no cap on the number that can be made.

[Marco(2)]

Yeah, I guess you're right, and your system will probably work fine. Only thing is that we'd have quite a lot of categories for different types of games, and I'm a sucker for simple classifications

I always consider Cubicolor a regular game, which of course is a bit arbitrary - but it works for me

Cheers,
Marco

[CPUWIZ]

Why is it arbitrary ? Cubicolor was released on real Imagic boards with ROM's on them, of course it's the real deal. It's not like any homebrew in any shape of form.

[Marco(2)]

Cool! So, it's not arbitrary after all

Seriously, it's just something I use for myself to keep things apart. To me, Cubicolor is in every way part of the classic era. I don't have scientific proof or criteria for that (Thomas will hate me for this, I bet :wink: ), it just feels that way to me.

Somehow, Okie Dokie kinda feels that way too, though it's clear I'm getting on a very slippery slope there. There's probably no way to distinguish Okie Dokie from other homebrews, apart from the fact it was the one that started it all. I guess I want to credit Bob Colbert for that by granting him a place in 2600 history.

Ahum, I'm getting way too serious here, so let's move on!

Cheers,
Marco

[King Atari]

All I can say is I hope AA starts selling Elevator Action!

[Keir]

For what it's worth, the new 7th edition Digital Press Guide does give rarity and value ratings to homebrews.

[kingpong]

Marco said:

Seriously, it's just something I use for myself to keep things apart. To me, Cubicolor is in every way part of the classic era. I don't have scientific proof or criteria for that (Thomas will hate me for this, I bet :wink: ), it just feels that way to me.  

Somehow, Okie Dokie kinda feels that way too, though it's clear I'm getting on a very slippery slope there. There's probably no way to distinguish Okie Dokie from other homebrews, apart from the fact it was the one that started it all. I guess I want to credit Bob Colbert for that by granting him a place in 2600 history.  

How is Okie Dokie the one that started it all? (Edit: After a while it hit me that Okie Dokie was the first homebrew to have a limited production run) SoundX and Edtris predated it by quite a bit. Thankfully we have Google and are able to find the posts that announced availability of the games.

Okie Dokie: "Wednesday December 4, 1996 after 11:30 a.m. CST"
Edtris: February 2, 1995
SoundX: Wow, it looks like I was a shill for Hozer in my post from October 11, 1994

FWIW, I'm of the opinion that no homebrews, hacks, or whatever are of any value. I suppose it is worthwhile to know which are still being produced, but I would prefer if none were ever produced. Cubicolor is a bit of a gray area (when exactly were those carts sold?), but in general if a game was made available for the sake of collectors, it is worthless.

[StanJr]

kingpong said:

FWIW, I'm of the opinion that no homebrews, hacks, or whatever are of any value.  I suppose it is worthwhile to know which are still being produced, but I would prefer if none were ever produced.  

Does this mean you are anti-homebrew? I'm confused.

[Marco(2)]

[quote name='kingpong']How is Okie Dokie the one that started it all?  (Edit: After a while it hit me that Okie Dokie was the first homebrew to have a limited production run) SoundX and Edtris predated it by quite a bit.  Thankfully we have Google and are able to find the posts that announced availability of the games.

Okie Dokie: "Wednesday December 4, 1996 after 11:30 a.m. CST"
Edtris: February 2, 1995
SoundX: Wow, it looks like I was a shill for Hozer in my post from October 11, 1994[/quote]

Yep, as your write in your edit, I was talking about Okie Dokie as the first new game / homebrew to create a big stir amongst collectors. Edtris and SoundX were hyped much less.

[quote]FWIW, I'm of the opinion that no homebrews, hacks, or whatever are of any value. I suppose it is worthwhile to know which are still being produced, but I would prefer if none were ever produced. Cubicolor is a bit of a gray area (when exactly were those carts sold?), but in general if a game was made available for the sake of collectors, it is worthless.

I think that's an opinion, not a fact. We all know Cubicolor and Okie Dokie are far from worthless. Even though I agree that artificially created rarity should not be confused with the rarity of a scarcely available game from the old days, in the end, it's collectors that determine the (monetary) value. Whether we like it or not.

Cheers,
Marco

[Thomas Jentzsch]

kingpong said:

FWIW, I'm of the opinion that no homebrews, hacks, or whatever are of any value.  I suppose it is worthwhile to know which are still being produced, but I would prefer if none were ever produced.

Hm, from a collectors point of view you may be right. I agree that making homebrews just for collecting reasons is not a good thing at all.

But did you ever played any of the modern homebrews? That's what they are (or should be) made for!

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Marco said:

Seriously, it's just something I use for myself to keep things apart. To me, Cubicolor is in every way part of the classic era. I don't have scientific proof or criteria for that (Thomas will hate me for this, I bet :wink: ), it just feels that way to me.

LOL!

As long as you have your feelings and I have my science and we are not forcing anything, then we both can stay happy.

[Marco(2)]

Thomas Jentzsch said:

LOL!

As long as you have your feelings and I have my science and we are not forcing anything, then we both can stay happy.

And with that wonderful sentiment, I wish everyone here

[size=24]All



Cheers,
Marco

[SS]

Keir said:

For what it's worth, the new 7th edition Digital Press Guide does give rarity and value ratings to homebrews.

This only seems right to me. MegaManFan may be onto something about an extra notation for homebrews/repros/etc. That way they could still be "set aside" by the purists but the differences in availability between a CubiColor and a Marble Craze could also be noted. The best of both worlds, really.

As for kingpongs statement, I respectfully choose to disagree. IMHO, not only is it cool as all-get-out that new games are being produced for the Atari in this day and age but I also truly can not see any distinguishable difference between new homebrews and a title such as Chase The Chuckwagon (or even the original Atari Club members only carts, for that matter).

[san-d-2000]

I think homebrews don't have any "collectors" value at all,
except for Cubicolor and Okie Dokie.

Cubicolor - because its more like a limited prototype/labloaner
(note: also its not a HOME-brew, because it was programmed at Imagic and not at HOME)


Okie Dokie - because it was the first 2600 homebrew (One small step for man, one giant step for mankind).

Ofcourse they do have "Gameplaying and Fun" value, that's why they are interesting for gamers and not for the collectors.

- Sandy.

ps

Also I think its a bit anoying that every new cart is advertised as limited and instant collectors-item.
You buy the limited edition, and the following week the same game is releases as a different limited run (cge-edition, eastcoast-edition, nwcc-edition, etc.., all limited)

[StanJr]

Bah, Limited Editions and Exclusive Releases are for people who need to feel special. As long as I have copy of the game, that is good enough for me, I don't really care where or when it was released (I'm talking about Homebrews, I'd like all of my original games to be original).

[kingpong]

StanJr said:

kingpong said:

FWIW, I'm of the opinion that no homebrews, hacks, or whatever are of any value.  I suppose it is worthwhile to know which are still being produced, but I would prefer if none were ever produced.  

Does this mean you are anti-homebrew? I'm confused.

The short answer is yes, but that oversimplifies things. There was a thread a few months back where I got beat up pretty well for this opinion.

Most of the homebrew games, at least those done within the last 2 years or so, are pretty impressive. As games, they compare favorably with many of the classics. If someone makes a game that would have been commercially viable if released when the system was active, that's quite an accomplishment, and something worthwhile. I don't look too highly upon games that wouldn't have been good enough to be released 15-20 years ago, interpretations of game genres that were not appropriate for the system's time, or graphical hacks.

I just have some sort of fundamental problem with new stuff being released for classic systems, even if it is reproductions of old prototypes. It has to do with open systems versus closed systems. Consoles have traditionally been closed systems, computers open systems. Back in the early 80s, everybody and their brother could program a game for a computer. Whether you did it the way the commercial folks did, or if you typed in a listing from a magazine, somehow you could do a game. You couldn't do that with consoles. Information on how to program them was scarce, tools were out of reach, and Joe Schmoe at home wasn't able to do a thing with them. These factors led to console games having a bit of an aura around them that computer games didn't have.

The influx in interest in homebrew console games over the last 10 years has eroded the line between console and computer games by effectively making the consoles open systems. While it still takes considerably more effort to do anything on a console than on a computer, the console isn't the untouchable thing it was to hobbyists 20 years ago. Heck, there was homebrew Gameboy Advance stuff out there before the system was even released. The classic consoles aren't open to that extreme, but they are open.

For me, the presence of homebrew stuff for consoles it a bit like learning how a magic trick works. You still appreciate the skill of the magician, maybe even moreso than before, and you can still enjoy the results, but it just isn't the same as it used to be.

The strange thing is that when the first 2600 homebrew stuff was coming around, I was quite interested. Yet by the time Okie Dokie came about, I was thinking "Ugh, another homebrew game". At first I thought it kind of neat that somebody managed to make a 2600 game, but I guess I soured on the idea over time.

[kingpong]

Thomas Jentzsch said:

kingpong said:

FWIW, I'm of the opinion that no homebrews, hacks, or whatever are of any value.  I suppose it is worthwhile to know which are still being produced, but I would prefer if none were ever produced.

Hm, from a collectors point of view you may be right. I agree that making homebrews just for collecting reasons is not a good thing at all.

Manufactured collectibles are never in anyone's best interest other than the person producing and profiting from them. I don't think it can ever be this way for games, but this sort of thing winds up killing most types of collecting. See comic books, baseball cards, Beanie Babies, and many other things for examples. When I see limited edition label variations, special packaging, etc. for homebrews, I get an uneasy feeling.

Reproductions of prototypes are a strange one. The existence of special releases is almost a necessary evil in some cases. You sell reproductions in order to recoup the cost of obtaining the prototype from some jerk who wanted a bunch of money for it. Everyone would like for the reproductions to be readily available, but if they see ongoing production with the same packaging, there isn't going to be sufficient interest in the game to justify the prices needed to pay for the proto. If you laid out $2500 for a proto, it is a far more appealing proposition to get 50 people to pay $50 for the full production run of a game at a show than to get 100 people to pay $25 over the course of a general release. It is a shame when we see limited edition show releases going for inflated prices on Ebay the day the show ends, but if that's what it takes to preserve unreleased protos, then I guess those of us who understand what has value and what doesn't should just sit back and laugh at those paying the inflated prices, then thank them.

Thomas Jentzsch said:

But did you ever played any of the modern homebrews? That's what they are (or should be) made for!

I've only played a few. Not due to a "I'm not going to play homebrews" attitude, but usually because most of the homebrews don't appear to be appealing games (either in theme/gameplay or quality - some are well done but I don't have any interest in, others just aren't worth anyone's time). Some of the homebrews are quite good, and I tip my hat to authors of games good enough that I could see myself purchasing the game 15-20 years ago. I guess I feel that if you're going to do a homebrew, do something that is of comparable quality to the best available for the system, or don't do it at all.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

kingpong said:

I guess I feel that if you're going to do a homebrew, do something that is of comparable quality to the best available for the system, or don't do it at all.

[Snider-man]

Quote

I guess I feel that if you're going to do a homebrew, do something that is of comparable quality to the best available for the system, or don't do it at all.

Errr...ummm....NO. I really have a problem with this concept everytime it surfaces. It sounds like you're saying that a game should live up to the community's expectations. However, I feel a game should live up to the CREATOR'S expectations. The community's thoughts on this are for squat. Allow me to explain:

Pressure Gauge - This is a great "reaction" game make by John Harvey many moons ago. Very simple concept. Three bars. One is a timer, one is a "goal" and one is the "play bar." Hit the buitton when the playbar falls within the goal before time runs out. However, this game is seriously laking in bells and whistles. Instead of a bar timer, how about a clock with moving hand? How about more sound? (The game is almost silent as-is.) How about more color? (The entire playfield and bars are one color.) By the statement above, this game is "unready" and "unworthy" of release.

Skeleton - I'm not gonna rehash this arguement again, except to say the game was released when Eric was done and happy with it - much to the chagrin of a lot of folks who let him know of their displeasure.

Space Treat - How many folks here have posted that the game was not done because it didn't have a scoring system they like/approved of?

Here's my point: If a programmer is able to get a few sprites moving on-screen and is happy with his/her work and wants to release it, SO BE IT. You don't have to buy it/support it/approve of it/etc. Sure, there could be room for improvement, but that's THEIR call - not yours. if they wish to work on it more after some constructive advice, great. If not, that should also be great.

I'm just concerned that someone's going to want to form the "Atari Homebrew Seal of Quality" and no game gets released without a council vote on whether it lives up to these "high standards" everyone talks about. That is NOT what this hobby is about. It's about the programmers enjoying what they're doing. Once you've got a horde of nay-sayers telling you your game is crap because you didn't include A, B, C, and D, that's the last game that person will provide to the unthankful masses.

So, if Johnny Homebrew throws together his first Pong clone with bad flicker and no sound, congratulate him for doing more programming than 98% of us that post here. If no one buys his game, he'll be more encouraged to improve on it so it sells rather than having folks lined up to tell him "you shouldn't have even tried."

Off my soapbox.

[EricBall]

Shortly after I put the initial versions of Skeleton onto the Stella mailing list I was approached by AtariAge about offering a cartridge version through them. I gave some long thought about this because, although I wanted to support AA via their store, I didn't want to abandon Hozer Video who was the traditional homebrew manufacturer, nor did I want to encourage a price war which wouldn't be sustainable over the long term.

My "solution" was to give both AA and HV permission to manufacture Skeleton for the same $5 royalty, but each would have an exclusive label. (AA also went to the trouble & expense of creating a colour manual.) I also have stated that there will never be a limitted release of Skeleton. (Though I could be persuaded to sign a cartridge...)

However, the closing of Hozer Video brings up a couple of interesting points:
1. AFAIK there were only 2 copies of Skeleton sold by Hozer Video, talk about a rare label variation!
2. Hozer Video also offered (but AFAIK never sold) my Atari logo demo as a cartridge. Should similar low selling hacks & demos have any rarity value?

WRT the percieve quality of Skeleton, this was discussed here. And although some people (both programmers and non-programmers) feel that Skeleton could/should have been improved before it was released, a significant number of people have paid good money to buy the cartridge even though the ROM image is available from AtariAge and the Stella mailing list (with source code) for use in an emulator, RAM Cart, or personal eprom. Quality and completeness are in the eyes of the beholder.