52 replies to this topic

[gumbo25la]

I just got an Atari 7800 last week, at a flee market, after having so much fun playing it on emulation, I can say that it is my favorite 8 bit system now. When I was little my favorite was the Master System and I liked the Nes, but now I have more fun playing the 7800.

But my question is, is it possible to make a better 8 bit version of Street Fighter 2 on the 7800 then the SF2 SMS version and the hack SF2 for the Nes.

I looked at the tech info of the atari 7800 and it looks like it is the most powerful of the three. (A friend told me that the cpu of the nes and 7800 is the same but 7800 is a sally which has some advantages over the nes cpu), The 7800 also has a palette of 25 colors on screen out of 256 colors, while the Nes has 16 out of 52, and SMS 32 out of 64, my friend was telling me, choosing 25 colors out of 256 is a better option then the other two.

Also the graphics engine had mode of 320 resolution, while the SMS and Nes had 256. (But I do know engineers used the 160 res. mode because of the tramiels and engineers not knowing how to use the 320 mode)

Also using a pokey and a TIA, you would have six channels, over 4 for the SMS and the Nes.

But my question is with bankswithing and using the xm module, is it possible to make a good looking and fun street fighter 2 for the Atari 7800, i may be dreaming, but i remember hating the SMS verison and remember people saying if it was a 12 meg cart rather than 8 meg, they would have had more room for a better playable version. I never understood why they tried to make it like a champion edition with all the characters, more characters would take more space right?

but anyway I would be happy with a SF2 World Warrior version on the 7800, I know arcade perfect is not possible, but a good playable version, does anyone think this would be possible?

If not the 7800 is still my favorite system.

Edited by gumbo25la, Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:29 AM.

[philipj]

The graphics for the SMS doesn't look all that bad... I don't know a lot about the Sega Master System, but for the 7800 you'll have to take into consideration the 4kb or RAM and the fact that it deals with a display list compared to most other systems that only deal with tile map sprites and what have you. Another thing is that is that the 7800 doesn't have video ram like most other game consoles. Most graphics and sound will be dependent on what can be squeezed on cartridge. One thing I do know is that, despite the fact that the CPU has to be halted everytime the Maria graphics chip is in use, the Maria is so fast that I believe it's possible for the 7800 to display graphics at a rate, that if you program it and time it right, the CPU will barely miss a beat dispite it being halted so that's something that I like to keep in mind... Please believe me.

Edited by philipj, Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:58 AM.

[DracIsBack]

gumbo25la, on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:20 AM, said:

I looked at the tech info of the atari 7800 and it looks like it is the most powerful of the three. (A friend told me that the cpu of the nes and 7800 is the same but 7800 is a sally which has some advantages over the nes cpu),

There's more to it than 'power'. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

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The 7800 also has a palette of 25 colors on screen out of 256 colors, while the Nes has 16 out of 52, and SMS 32 out of 64, my friend was telling me, choosing 25 colors out of 256 is a better option then the other two.

I don't think any of those are entirely accurate. For example, GroovyBee has a 169 color demo on the 7800. I've also heard the SMS has 32 of 256 colors. And the NES apparently has closer to 64, plus the ability to change the brightness of the overall palette resulting in 400+ possible colors.

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Also the graphics engine had mode of 320 resolution, while the SMS and Nes had 256. (But I do know engineers used the 160 res. mode because of the tramiels and engineers not knowing how to use the 320 mode)

The 320 mode also takes up a lot of cycles, has fewer colors and some weird nuances. On paper, the 7800 has higher resolution. In practice, it generally doesn't. There are exceptions like PacMan 320, Froggie and others that use it.

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Also using a pokey and a TIA, you would have six channels, over 4 for the SMS and the Nes.

Doesn't the NES have 5? Also, there may be advantages to the types of sound each system can produce, regardless of # of channels.

[gumbo25la]

So am I dreaming or could the 7800 make a fun and playable street fighter 2 world warrior. What do yall engineers think?

[GroovyBee]

gumbo25la, on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:20 AM, said:

I looked at the tech info of the atari 7800 and it looks like it is the most powerful of the three. (A friend told me that the cpu of the nes and 7800 is the same but 7800 is a sally which has some advantages over the nes cpu),

The main difference between the two CPUs is the fact that the NES CPU does not support BCD arithmetic.

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The 7800 also has a palette of 25 colors on screen out of 256 colors, while the Nes has 16 out of 52, and SMS 32 out of 64, my friend was telling me, choosing 25 colors out of 256 is a better option then the other two.

That's 25 colours per video scan line and not per screen. With programmer tricks you can change several colours per line. The number of colours depends on the complexity of the Display List List zone that is currently being rendered.

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Also the graphics engine had mode of 320 resolution, while the SMS and Nes had 256. (But I do know engineers used the 160 res. mode because of the tramiels and engineers not knowing how to use the 320 mode)

Not true! The 320A, 320B, 320C and 320D modes are all documented. In fact 320A mode was recommended for displaying scores and status bars so the graphics didn't look as "chunky".

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But my question is with bankswithing and using the xm module, is it possible to make a good looking and fun street fighter 2 for the Atari 7800

Given time, sufficient knowledge about the machine, 6502 assembler and a good pixel artist on your team you can make pretty much any game you like on the 7800.

[GroovyBee]

philipj, on Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:07 AM, said:

Another thing is that is that the 7800 doesn't have video ram like most other game consoles.

Not true! You can create a linear video frame buffer in RAM. The RAM has to be external to the console (e.g. on cart or on the XM). That's how my port of Tempest from the BBC micro works.

[GroovyBee]

DracIsBack, on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:13 PM, said:

The 320 mode also takes up a lot of cycles, has fewer colors and some weird nuances. On paper, the 7800 has higher resolution. In practice, it generally doesn't. There are exceptions like PacMan 320, Froggie and others that use it.

Not quite true. In 320A (a 1BPP graphics mode) it takes 3 MARIA clock cycles to fetch 8 pixels of data. So that means you need 120 MARIA cycles to fill a single video line (not including Display List overhead). To fill a video line of 2BPP data (e.g. 160A - the most common mode used in the legacy games) you need 6 MARIA clock cycles per 8 pixels. This gets you back to 120 MARIA cycles again.

In my mind the main reason the 320 modes aren't used is that you need more programmer tricks to get the game looking "reasonable".

[Rex Dart]

If the 7800 could handle something half as good as the Neo Geo Pocket Color fighters, I'd love to see it done too.

Edited by Rex Dart, Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:50 PM.

[mbd30]

I can't imagine playing SF2 with a 7800 controller. You need more than two buttons.

[DracIsBack]

mbd30, on Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:10 AM, said:

I can't imagine playing SF2 with a 7800 controller. You need more than two buttons.

Just take the F-14 Tomcat approach and use the console buttons!

I kid, I kid.

I wouldn't like it either. I always thought Mortal Kombat on the Sega Master System was a terrific technical achievement, but brutally hard to play because of the two button limit.

[GroovyBee]

For my PSX to 7800 interface I plan on having a mode where a game can read all the buttons (and the sticks) serially like the NES. That would open a whole load of new possibilities for games.

[108 Stars]

Just from the look of Street Fighter II on SMS I haven´t ever seen a similar level of detail on the Atari 7800. SF II looks very detailed even for SMS standards.

The problem with that version is the controls; they feel quite choppy and it´s hard to do the smooth movements needed for special moves. Visually it has great detail fast speed (too fast, actually) but the amount of animation has been reduced a great deal. Also, the backgrounds are mirrored in the middle; maybe that is some trick to save VRAM?

I have it in my collection, and from a visual standpoint I don´t think either NES or 7800 could match it; it´s a very well done job, no wonder as it was made by Capcom. From the gameplay standard I think some NES pirates do replicate the SF II feel better than the SMS version.

As for the 7800... I would like to see, hear and play such a version. Would be a prime example of a very demanding game on all three systems, and a good game to compare the systems´ strengths and weaknesses with.

[SoundGammon]

...you could use the second controller port for more buttons, like Stargate/Defender 2 on the 2600!

[108 Stars]

I think two buttons are enough for basic SF II fun; not as strategic as with 6 of course, but having one kick and one punch already fulfills the basic requirement imo.

[GroovyBee]

108 Stars, on Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:37 AM, said:

As for the 7800... I would like to see, hear and play such a version. Would be a prime example of a very demanding game on all three systems, and a good game to compare the systems´ strengths and weaknesses with.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. If you allocated five palettes to the players. So that's skin colour and clothes for each and a common palette between them it would leave three palettes for the background. With a good artist, DLI's and programmer tricks you could make those nine colours go a long way on the backgrounds. The rest is just animation frames and associated hit boxes .

[Phredreeke]

GroovyBee, on Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:19 AM, said:

DracIsBack, on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:13 PM, said:

The 320 mode also takes up a lot of cycles, has fewer colors and some weird nuances. On paper, the 7800 has higher resolution. In practice, it generally doesn't. There are exceptions like PacMan 320, Froggie and others that use it.

Not quite true. In 320A (a 1BPP graphics mode) it takes 3 MARIA clock cycles to fetch 8 pixels of data. So that means you need 120 MARIA cycles to fill a single video line (not including Display List overhead). To fill a video line of 2BPP data (e.g. 160A - the most common mode used in the legacy games) you need 6 MARIA clock cycles per 8 pixels. This gets you back to 120 MARIA cycles again.

In my mind the main reason the 320 modes aren't used is that you need more programmer tricks to get the game looking "reasonable".

Doesn't the 320A mode limit you to 5 colors per line as well?

Edit: Ok, it's 9 colors. I should check for replies before I click post

Edited by Phredreeke, Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:13 AM.

[108 Stars]

GroovyBee, on Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:51 AM, said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. If you allocated five palettes to the players. So that's skin colour and clothes for each and a common palette between them it would leave three palettes for the background. With a good artist, DLI's and programmer tricks you could make those nine colours go a long way on the backgrounds. The rest is just animation frames and associated hit boxes .

Why do you disagree? In the end it is still a game of a generation ahead of the hardware, and seeing that the 7800 has not yet been made to display graphics of the finesse of SF II it would be a challenge.

It would be very interesting to see how the characters and backgrounds fare in the Atari 7800 resolution, how big the fighters are or if there is flickering; and how many frames of animation can it pull off in the game? How fast will it run?

It´s not just a matter of palettes.

Edited by 108 Stars, Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:05 AM.

[GroovyBee]

Phredreeke, on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:02 AM, said:

Doesn't the 320A mode limit you to 5 colors per line as well?

Nope! You can have 9 colours per line (including the background). However you'd need 8 Display List (DL) headers to achieve that.

[GroovyBee]

108 Stars, on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:04 AM, said:

Why do you disagree? In the end it is still a game of a generation ahead of the hardware, and seeing that the 7800 has not yet been made to display graphics of the finesse of SF II it would be a challenge.

I've programmed several games on the 7800. Have a look at my "About Me" to see what has been announced.

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It would be very interesting to see how the characters and backgrounds fare in the Atari 7800 resolution, how big the fighters are or if there is flickering; and how many frames of animation can it pull off in the game? How fast will it run?

You have to take into account the limits of the 7800. Using 160A (2BPP) would offer the best trade off between character size and background detail. The 7800 doesn't flicker graphics. When MARIA runs out of clock cycles you don't see the remaining "sprites" in the zone's display list. The number of frames of animation depends on character size, colour depth and programmer tricks.

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It´s not just a matter of palettes.

Agreed! Any game is the result of many hours of work getting the machine to do what you want in the time you have available to do it in.

[108 Stars]

Hey, I know you due, we have talked before here on the forum.^^
I know you´re deep in 7800 development, and I think you wanted to do a Zeldaresque game for it.

My question was just why you did not agree to it being interesting to see SF II running on a 7800 to compare to SMS and NES ports., I never doubted your knowledge.

But reading your last post I take it you don´t see the 7800 really being able to compete with the SMS on this kind of game and that´s why it´s not interesting?
You may be right, yet I must admit I´d still find it fascinating to see SF II in 160 res and with the 7800s colors. It probably would not do the trick the SMS version does (looking like the 16-bit versions at a short, first sight), but could look nice in its own way. Maybe.

[GroovyBee]

108 Stars, on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:34 AM, said:

My question was just why you did not agree to it being interesting to see SF II running on a 7800 to compare to SMS and NES ports., I never doubted your knowledge.

I'd be much more interested in seeing something like Way of the Exploding Fist or IK+ on the 7800. Those game's have much more "character" to them in my opinion.

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But reading your last post I take it you don´t see the 7800 really being able to compete with the SMS on this kind of game and that´s why it´s not interesting?

The 7800 can compete with lots of platforms . The big problem to me is finding an artist who wants to work on the project too. This kind of game will need a large amount of artist time to get it into a reasonable state.

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You may be right, yet I must admit I´d still find it fascinating to see SF II in 160 res and with the 7800s colors. It probably would not do the trick the SMS version does (looking like the 16-bit versions at a short, first sight), but could look nice in its own way. Maybe.

Maybe a tech demo is in order

[108 Stars]

GroovyBee, on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:42 AM, said:

I'd be much more interested in seeing something like Way of the Exploding Fist or IK+ on the 7800. Those game's have much more "character" to them in my opinion.

Naaah... I played WotEF like crazy on C64 as a kid, but nowadays I find these fighting games quite lacking in gameplay. And that´s coming from me eventhough I am doing the graphics for such a game on the Lynx atm.^^

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The 7800 can compete with lots of platforms . The big problem to me is finding an artist who wants to work on the project too. This kind of game will need a large amount of artist time to get it into a reasonable state.

I would help... but I am busy with three other games myself atm, and I don´t own a 7800 yet, severly limiting my urge to spend hours on graphics for it.^^

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Maybe a tech demo is in order

It is.

[GroovyBee]

108 Stars, on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:08 PM, said:

I would help... but I am busy

No problem. I've got loads of projects on the go too.

[Classic Pac]

I think it's possible if someone could do an SMS version as well as that pirated NES version. I say go ahead. I honestly like to see the results.

[gumbo25la]

I think with so much respect for the hombrew and future of the Atari 7800, if there was a SF2 released to the public for the 7800,(I hope one day,and people would pay good for this), it would be a great port and hopefully better playable then the official SMS release and all them Nes hacks.

I just love the 7800 and its future in my oppinion is brighter then the SMS and Nes.

My question is though if a programmer or team decides to do this. Is it better to do a World Warrior version, rather then a Champion Edition? I would be happy with World Warrior for the 7800.

Oh yes and we would need a six button joy (other future games could use this also in the future).