No Digital Copies?

[yell0w_lantern]

It appears that a number of Colecovision and Intellivision homebrews are cartridge-only releases and once they are sold out they are probably gone for good. Furthermore, digital copies are not available for sale.

 

Is that correct or are some of the publishers open to selling the ROMs?

[GroovyBee]

There was a recent discussion on this here (now locked) :-

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/183918-maybe-we-should-learn-a-thing-or-two-from-the-retro-computers-fans/

[GroovyBee]

Several of the more recent Intellivision homebrews have their ROMs available to try out in emulators or a CC3.

[yell0w_lantern]

Several of the more recent Intellivision homebrews have their ROMs available to try out in emulators or a CC3.

 

Yeah, I just got a Cuttle Cart 3 and an Atari Max Colecovision Flashcart. I saw that the Colecovision cart came with Mr. Chin and Mario Brothers but became confused when I poked around the Homebrew sites and didn't see any digital copies for sale. I've skimmed enough to see the understandable opposition to free ROM releases but I didn't go through the Colecovision subforum enough to find that particular thread (you'd think it would be under 'HOMEBREW').

 

Okay, that's cool.

 

Probably just best to lock or delete this thread.

Edited July 5, 2011 by yell0w_lantern

[raindog]

There was a recent discussion on this here (now locked) :-

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/183918-maybe-we-should-learn-a-thing-or-two-from-the-retro-computers-fans/

 

Wow, sure am glad I don't follow the Colecovision and Intellivision homebrew scenes anymore. At least we have Atariage already set up to make quality carts for the 2600, eliminating much of that "OMG I CHOSE TO SPEND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON MY HOBBY AND THUS AM ENTITLED TO A RETURN" issue.

[RelliK111]

NIAD said it best when he said on the last discussion:

 

"If people have the ability to download something for free and save themselves between $25 to $50, what do you think they are going to do... download away. There are a limited number of people that want the total CiB package (cart, manual and box) and will buy everything that is produced (I bought Peek-A-Boo even though I had the MSX rom file and Kobashi even though I have the CV demo) and then there is a limited number of people who might buy the CiB package so the Homebrewers really need to be applauded for going to the extremes that they do to bring us such professional games and packages... even if they are ports from other systems in some cases, that is an argument that needs to once and for all be thrown out already. A company like Atari can bury 5 million copies of E.T. in the desert without even flinching, a homebrewer can't afford to waste even one cart shell, pcb, prom, label, manual or box without feeling the effects.

 

I can respect the feeling that if a CiB game package is completely sold out that one would question why can't a rom image file be made available for all those that couldn't buy or missed out on the release. Lord knows I missed out on a few and I thank and praise those Homebrewers who have made rom images available such as Eduardo did with his Space Invaders Collection game, but then this limits the possibility of another run of CiB packages being made and completely rules out the possibility of digital distribution for a fee. Then you have to consider all the people who bought a CiB game package and how releasing the rom image might de-value the CiB package or make it possible for someone to create their own bootleg package and further de-value the original. I'll hopefully never have to sell any of my collection, but if I do, I would like to get at least my initial purchase price/investment back if not over $700 which someone recently paid for Mario Bros. or $325 that someone paid for Ghost(s) and Zombies on eBay.

 

Piracy has been rampant since the dawn of the age of computers and even in early console based systems via pirate carts all the way up to today's modern consoles and it will never stop... even to help a Homebrewer sell out his stock. So in the end, we have to learn to live with the wishes of the Homebrewers and respect their decisions no matter how wrong you might think they are. If we don't or can't, they will eventually throw in the towel and we will be left with nothing."

 

Digital Copies of Coleco Homebrews will not happen anytime soon and hopefully never happen. Even if it means you and I never get to play some great games that are not sold any more like Ghost n Zombies and Pyramid W. & Battleshipp Clappton II. By Collectorvision never releasing the roms on these games it still gives me hope that someday they might release or do a 2nd run of these games. I'll then be able to play some of the great games that I missed that came out before I found out about the wonderful homebrew scene.

 

So go buy some great Coleco Homebrews CIB at:

 

http://teampixelboy.com/

http://www.collectorvision.com/

http://www.ccjvq.com/newcoleco/ (When he comes out with his next game)

http://opcodegames.com/ (hopefully will start selling games again very soon)

Atariage has great games here to

 

There is more but this is off the top of my head

Edited July 7, 2011 by RelliK111

[yell0w_lantern]

Again, probably best to delete or lock this thread.

[Underball]

NIAD said it best when he said on the last discussion:

 

"If people have the ability to download something for free and save themselves between $25 to $50, what do you think they are going to do... download away. There are a limited number of people that want the total CiB package (cart, manual and box) and will buy everything that is produced (I bought Peek-A-Boo even though I had the MSX rom file and Kobashi even though I have the CV demo) and then there is a limited number of people who might buy the CiB package so the Homebrewers really need to be applauded for going to the extremes that they do to bring us such professional games and packages... even if they are ports from other systems in some cases, that is an argument that needs to once and for all be thrown out already. A company like Atari can bury 5 million copies of E.T. in the desert without even flinching, a homebrewer can't afford to waste even one cart shell, pcb, prom, label, manual or box without feeling the effects.

 

I can respect the feeling that if a CiB game package is completely sold out that one would question why can't a rom image file be made available for all those that couldn't buy or missed out on the release. Lord knows I missed out on a few and I thank and praise those Homebrewers who have made rom images available such as Eduardo did with his Space Invaders Collection game, but then this limits the possibility of another run of CiB packages being made and completely rules out the possibility of digital distribution for a fee. Then you have to consider all the people who bought a CiB game package and how releasing the rom image might de-value the CiB package or make it possible for someone to create their own bootleg package and further de-value the original. I'll hopefully never have to sell any of my collection, but if I do, I would like to get at least my initial purchase price/investment back if not over $700 which someone recently paid for Mario Bros. or $325 that someone paid for Ghost(s) and Zombies on eBay.

 

Piracy has been rampant since the dawn of the age of computers and even in early console based systems via pirate carts all the way up to today's modern consoles and it will never stop... even to help a Homebrewer sell out his stock. So in the end, we have to learn to live with the wishes of the Homebrewers and respect their decisions no matter how wrong you might think they are. If we don't or can't, they will eventually throw in the towel and we will be left with nothing."

 

Digital Copies of Coleco Homebrews will not happen anytime soon and hopefully never happen. Even if it means you and I never get to play some great games that are not sold any more like Ghost n Zombies and Pyramid W. & Battleshipp Clappton II. By Collectorvision never releasing the roms on these games it still gives me hope that someday they might release or do a 2nd run of these games. I'll then be able to play some of the great games that I missed that came out before I found out about the wonderful homebrew scene.

 

So go buy some great Coleco Homebrews CIB at:

 

http://teampixelboy.com/

http://www.collectorvision.com/

http://www.ccjvq.com/newcoleco/ (When he comes out with his next game)

http://opcodegames.com/ (hopefully will start selling games again very soon)

Atariage has great games here to

 

There is more but this is off the top of my head

This is the saddest part of the whole thing. For many in the Colecovision scene, it has nothing to do with playing the actual games, and everything to do with their wallets and/or their egos.

 

The fact that these games would be lost forever if the ROMs aren't released, or worse - used as some perverse means of extortion is pathetic.

[+5-11under]

Underball, if you make a game or anything else, you can do whatever you want with it. That's the bottom line. You want a ROM... make one. Beyond that...

 

As far as money goes, I'm sure that's a factor sometimes. The cartridge and box and instructions is a big value add. What's a ROM worth to people? Probably somewhere between $0.50 and $5.00. Sell 50-100 of them, and you've made somewhere between $25 and $500. The $0.50 game probably took 50 hours to make, and the $5.00 game probably too 100-200 hours to make. That's $0.50 to $5.00 per hour. Sell a complete game, and the returns can be much larger, making a project more worthwhile (assuming some form of compensation is desirable). There's nothing wrong with making a few bucks. If I make any money from such things, some of it gets invested into the next project. Some of it goes to completely different things, usually entertainment, as a way to bring some balance to life.

 

Making a ROM file is cool. The feeling of holding your own cartridge, however, is a quantum leap above that. That is what most want to "share".

 

I like to compare the situation to an artist. An artist typically prefers something to be one-of-a-kind. The next stage, if there is enough demand, and to lower the cost to the public, is to sell things like numbered prints and photographs. The lower form, usually undesirable, is to sell or give away digital copies of photographs.

 

The ROMs are not lost, by the way. Plenty of people have them... inside the cartridge.

 

I too, wish I had the ROMs for all of the homebrews. I don't get too stressed out about it, though, because there's plenty of readily available new and classic games to be played on a multitude of systems.

[Keatah]

I do almost all my classic gaming via emulation. So I need to have the games in digital form, like a download. If something is not available that way I probably won't play it. Eventually the roms will become available sooner or later, so it's not a big deal. Besides, there are hundreds of roms available right now for my enjoyment.

 

If the game is hot and new but not available, ohh well, eventually I'll forget about it and move on.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Keatah

[Keatah]

Several of the more recent Intellivision homebrews have their ROMs available to try out in emulators or a CC3.

 

 

Cool! I which ones are good to checkout?

[GroovyBee]

Several of the more recent Intellivision homebrews have their ROMs available to try out in emulators or a CC3.

 

 

Cool! I which ones are good to checkout?

 

Have a look in the Intellivision forum. Most are WIPs except Donkey Kong.

[SpaceDice2010]

The main issue that I have with not releasing the ROM is when the code was not created by the person who released it. IMHO they have no real right to profit just because the bought a "proto". And if they do decide to release it commercially then the ROM should be released as well.

[RelliK111]

NIAD said it best when he said on the last discussion:

 

"If people have the ability to download something for free and save themselves between $25 to $50, what do you think they are going to do... download away. There are a limited number of people that want the total CiB package (cart, manual and box) and will buy everything that is produced (I bought Peek-A-Boo even though I had the MSX rom file and Kobashi even though I have the CV demo) and then there is a limited number of people who might buy the CiB package so the Homebrewers really need to be applauded for going to the extremes that they do to bring us such professional games and packages... even if they are ports from other systems in some cases, that is an argument that needs to once and for all be thrown out already. A company like Atari can bury 5 million copies of E.T. in the desert without even flinching, a homebrewer can't afford to waste even one cart shell, pcb, prom, label, manual or box without feeling the effects.

 

I can respect the feeling that if a CiB game package is completely sold out that one would question why can't a rom image file be made available for all those that couldn't buy or missed out on the release. Lord knows I missed out on a few and I thank and praise those Homebrewers who have made rom images available such as Eduardo did with his Space Invaders Collection game, but then this limits the possibility of another run of CiB packages being made and completely rules out the possibility of digital distribution for a fee. Then you have to consider all the people who bought a CiB game package and how releasing the rom image might de-value the CiB package or make it possible for someone to create their own bootleg package and further de-value the original. I'll hopefully never have to sell any of my collection, but if I do, I would like to get at least my initial purchase price/investment back if not over $700 which someone recently paid for Mario Bros. or $325 that someone paid for Ghost(s) and Zombies on eBay.

 

Piracy has been rampant since the dawn of the age of computers and even in early console based systems via pirate carts all the way up to today's modern consoles and it will never stop... even to help a Homebrewer sell out his stock. So in the end, we have to learn to live with the wishes of the Homebrewers and respect their decisions no matter how wrong you might think they are. If we don't or can't, they will eventually throw in the towel and we will be left with nothing."

 

Digital Copies of Coleco Homebrews will not happen anytime soon and hopefully never happen. Even if it means you and I never get to play some great games that are not sold any more like Ghost n Zombies and Pyramid W. & Battleshipp Clappton II. By Collectorvision never releasing the roms on these games it still gives me hope that someday they might release or do a 2nd run of these games. I'll then be able to play some of the great games that I missed that came out before I found out about the wonderful homebrew scene.

 

So go buy some great Coleco Homebrews CIB at:

 

http://teampixelboy.com/

http://www.collectorvision.com/

http://www.ccjvq.com/newcoleco/ (When he comes out with his next game)

http://opcodegames.com/ (hopefully will start selling games again very soon)

Atariage has great games here to

 

There is more but this is off the top of my head

This is the saddest part of the whole thing. For many in the Colecovision scene, it has nothing to do with playing the actual games, and everything to do with their wallets and/or their egos.

 

The fact that these games would be lost forever if the ROMs aren't released, or worse - used as some perverse means of extortion is pathetic.

I don't get anything your trying to say how would the games be lost forever if you buy them?? What are you talking about "perverse means of extortion"? Who is getting extorted? Have you even bought a Coleco game or are you just looking for free games and thats why you sound upset?

Edited July 16, 2011 by RelliK111

[Keatah]

As far as classic gaming goes, I'm strictly on an Emulation basis. This has a number of advantages, Hardware that always works, Convenience and speed of game selection, Portability and location, Significant space savings too. It also has some disadvantages.. Like not every game works right or is available.

 

But there are thousands of games for me to play! So while missing some recent homebrews that are not in downloadable digital format, it isn't a huge deal. Eventually as I play with other games the "un-released" digital/download roms get forgotten about. And eventually they will make their way to the public domain, it may take years, but it will happen.

[Lord Helmet]

I can understand where developers are coming from. It's a huge time investment at the very least to do a game. That said, I stopped doing physical media a couple of years ago for just about everything if I can help it. I've gone as far as to ask developers to sell me just the rom for at or near the price of the cartridge simply because I only use emulation or multicarts. Basically if a rom isn't released or sold, the game doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned.

[Legend]

I think that digital distribution for roms is a very plausible idea. My take on it would be to have the programmer customize each rom with the buyers name or a custom phrase it the title screen. Also, distribute the manual and box/label art in a protected, un-editable pdf file with the buyers name in each. Lastly, maybe most importantly, have the buyer sign a simple legal contracted stating that it is only for personal use and not to be distributed.

 

The author of the game should also take orders by using a limited first come, first serve type of sign up/ pre-order like many do when making carts. Maybe 20 copies at a time. This helps keep the programmer from getting bogged down with 100's of orders to customize in this manner. After the orders have been filled, the author of the game can decide to do another run if they so wish when they know they will have time to do the customizing.

 

This is almost exactly the process I went through when I playtested a homebrew game last year. I had to sign a contract and the game author sent me the roms and I ended up with the final product on rom form and have never broken my word of not distributing it.

 

Of course there is the chance of someone hacking the rom to remove the name and distributing it, but it seems to me that there is a similar risk of someone buying a physical copy, dumping it, and distributing it. Plus, the majority of people who would even be interested in the roms would be people from this community who, as far as I can tell, seem to be very honest, respectful, and people of their word.

 

For someone like me who grew up with the 2600 and nes, but no longer have functioning systems or can afford to collect, this would be ideal. Ever since I first discovered emulation, it has been a godsend. I would gladly pay a reduced price for a digital copy of a homebrew. Probably as much as $20 if I had it at the time.

 

I think This could be a very plausible form of digital distribution for homebrew roms.

[TMR]

I can understand where developers are coming from. It's a huge time investment at the very least to do a game.

 

As a developer myself, i can't really see where they're coming from because i write my games for people to play; finding artificial ways to whittle what is already a small audience down to the twenty or thirty people who are lucky enough to see the announcement and get their orders in just seems to be counter-productive. My own most recent game Edge Grinder was released on cartridge (out of stock at the time of writing but here's a quick plug) for the C64 a few weeks back, but at the same time i uploaded it to the interwebs as well, so if people play it and decide it's worth the twenty quid asked for the cartridge, box and manual that option is there.

 

And as a reviewer, being offered a cartrige is a pain in the bum - even if i have the correct hardware to run the game in question (and no, i don't have an entire computing museum to hand, there are kids, pets and furniture using the space it'd need) there's no hardware around the house to get a decent quality screenshot and i've taken a potential sale away from the publisher at the same time. And then there's the issue of limited run cartridges; my Retro Gamer pages are written a couple of months in advance, so when i'm sent a game for review (and a few people have thankfully started sending finger-printed ROM images) the odds are it'll be out of stock by the time we go to print, so i can either cover it and hope there'll be a second run (otherwise i'm showing my readers something they'll possibly never be able to buy, no matter how good it is) or not cover the game at all...

[Keatah]

That's a great point. I see it from the perspective that if something is unobtainable or too difficult to get a hold of, then I don't get whatever it is. Ok. Then, I eventually forget about it and move along to something else.

 

In this day and age of thousands of choices of games and media to interact with, it is in the author's best interest to make their 'wares' available by as many means as possible. Reasonable fees can be involved, or not. Just as long as the stuff is made available somehow.

 

I think the guy that did the Star Castle thing made a mistake and garnered nothing but ill will from the community; and it right to close the thread. Having said that, what ever happened to that Donkey Kong II thing or whatever it was?

[Underball]

I still just think it's a shame to deny people the ability to see and try your homebrew gams and hacks unless they belong to the tiny subset of original hardware owning collectors.

 

People who collect classic games are going to buy them when available. No true collector is going to settle for a ROM. So that's threally your only audience to shoot for. Expecting casual classic gaming fans who occasionally play old atari games on their emulator to run out to eBay and buy a crusty old console just to play your homebrew game, without being able to see it played first is just plain silly.

 

The classic collectors aren't going to not buy your game if a ROM is available. If anything, the chance to preview it in an emu would yeild a better chance of convincing someone to plunk down $60+ for a working classic system from the overpriced scam artists on eBay, and then another $30-$40 for a homebrew game than sitting on your collector high horse saying "Nyah Nyah! you can't have my game unless you know the secret handshake!"

 

As someone else already said the market for CIB classic games is tiny as it is. Making it even smaller by expecting people to buy into a collecting hobby they might have no interest in (or enough cash to join) is counterproductive.

[Keatah]

As was just said, it's going to be the diehard collectors and obsessive enthusiasts that buy the higher-priced games. These are so far and few between. Out of about 100 older folks I know, they all know atari, and maybe 10% had the console when they were kids. And of those 10 people. Maybe one or two still has their console. And they don't play it often.

 

Now, the common-man-cum-collector will only buy the $4.99 special at gamestop-like-stores or online auctions. I've observed this trend hundreds of times over. The common man might not even know of atariage to begin with!

 

Either way, the market for classic gaming sales, while vibrant, is very small and limited.

 

Belonging to atariage makes the classic gaming world seem A LOT bigger than it actually is..!

Edited August 21, 2011 by Keatah