52 replies to this topic

[kroogur]

Sometimes when articles are written about classic consoles or "worst" lists are made Atari 5200/Jaguar,Colecovision,Intellivision etc are bashed because of their weird "phone" keyboard style controllers usually by some wet behind the ears snot nose that returns to playing his/her PS3 or 360 after bashing the old weird technology.

Did they ever stop to think that the controller they are using right now is basically the tech that they just bashed? If you look at a PS3/360 controller you got what? 4 d-pad buttons,4 function buttons,2 triggers, 2 buttons above the triggers, 2 thumbsticks and 3 buttons in the center for a total of about 17 buttons and they are griping about the old controllers??

[Random Terrain]

I think you answered your own question. Modern controllers are usually more user-friendly and ergonomic. You can instantly press the correct button without looking. A rectangular box of keys is harder to deal with.

[HuckleCat]

Whenever I think about the worst controllers, I always think of the N64 controller first.


Show me someone who thinks its a good controller, and I'll show you someone who's first console was a N64.

[Algus]

Also the complaint that controls were often needlessly complicated for games that were relatively unsophisticated and that games didn't really have "standard" controller layouts.

[Cobra Commander]

HuckleCat, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:45 AM, said:

Whenever I think about the worst controllers, I always think of the N64 controller first.


Show me someone who thinks its a good controller, and I'll show you someone who's first console was a N64.

I usually reconfigure them, PITA and it essentially makes it into a comparable PSX or DC controller. Most 'tarded controller ever.

[jetset]

Lack of skill. Almost always boils down to that.

[kroogur]

Random Terrain, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:40 AM, said:

I think you answered your own question. Modern controllers are usually more user-friendly and ergonomic. You can instantly press the correct button without looking. A rectangular box of keys is harder to deal with.

I guess I did but the gist of what I was getting at was when we were growing up with our "phones" we knew what the buttons did and we grew used to them until they were 2nd nature just like the modern controllers are to new gamers of today.

I guess my other point was a general swipe at reviewers that just badmouth stuff because it's what is accepted by the masses (like the undeserved hatred for E.T.)

Or to use another example...cars. I am an auto mechanic by trade and when I say that Dodge Neons are rubbish I usually get an argument from someone who thinks they are awesome. Well the problem there is the guy that thinks they are great owns 1 Dodge Neon and maybe it has been well relatively trouble free and he trades it in after it's paid off. Me? I have been behind the wheel of hundreds of Neons and between the recalls, flimsy build quality, body rot, transmission issues and all the rest I can easily make the statement that Neons are rubbish because I have spent so much time with them and became very familiar with every aspect of the car. The same applies to these reviewers they pick up a Jaguar controller play with it for a few minutes and comment how archaic and lame they are compared to the controllers from other systems.

[save2600]

kroogur, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:14 AM, said:

Or to use another example...cars. I am an auto mechanic by trade and when I say that Dodge Neons are rubbish I usually get an argument from someone who thinks they are awesome.

Seems to be the way it is anymore, especially on the internet. People arguing, just for the sake of arguing.

Hey, quick question... everyone (ha!) knows that Neons are junk, but do PT Cruisers share that esteem being based on the same platform? Wondering because I've come close to purchasing one a couple of times for my job. Easy vehicle to get tools in and out of. Seems to be a zealous lot too, those PT owners.

[kroogur]

save2600, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:23 AM, said:

kroogur, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:14 AM, said:

Or to use another example...cars. I am an auto mechanic by trade and when I say that Dodge Neons are rubbish I usually get an argument from someone who thinks they are awesome.

Seems to be the way it is anymore, especially on the internet. People arguing, just for the sake of arguing.

Hey, quick question... everyone (ha!) knows that Neons are junk, but do PT Cruisers share that esteem being based on the same platform? Wondering because I've come close to purchasing one a couple of times for my job. Easy vehicle to get tools in and out of. Seems to be a zealous lot too, those PT owners.

Yes the PT shares a great deal with the Neon and while they are cool little cars they are even more difficult to work on due to nearly no room under the hood not a big deal to the cars owner but a huge problem for the poor soul who has to work under that hood. The Chevy HHR was designed by the same person who did the PT. Mechanically the HHR seems to be a little better but I have not worked on too many HHR's.

[Reaperman]

edit: nevermind

Edited by Reaperman, Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:14 AM.

[Eltigro]

HuckleCat, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:45 AM, said:

Whenever I think about the worst controllers, I always think of the N64 controller first.


Show me someone who thinks its a good controller, and I'll show you someone who's first console was a N64.

I don't think it was that bad. It was reasonably comfortable and worked well enough as long as the game didn't require the d-pad or left shoulder button. It just seemed to have been designed with a three handed person in mind.

Oh, and my first console was a pong clone, then 2600, then 5200, then NES, then...

[TheGameCollector]

HuckleCat, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:45 AM, said:

Whenever I think about the worst controllers, I always think of the N64 controller first.


Show me someone who thinks its a good controller, and I'll show you someone who's first console was a N64.

I think the controllers for N64 are very good when they are brand new. But over time they become the worst because of that stupid stick. Out of the box they are just fine.

If there is a problem, it's not the layout. Very little games use the unreachable L button for anything and use Z instead, and the only thing you are left having to make a choice between are D-pad or stick. And most of the main games require the stick rather than the d-pad while a few games do need the d-pad.

When I play Nintendo 64 I prefer using the Superpad 64 because it is more like a normal controller.

[Chuck D. Head]

save2600, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:23 AM, said:

kroogur, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:14 AM, said:

Or to use another example...cars. I am an auto mechanic by trade and when I say that Dodge Neons are rubbish I usually get an argument from someone who thinks they are awesome.

Seems to be the way it is anymore, especially on the internet. People arguing, just for the sake of arguing.

Hey, quick question... everyone (ha!) knows that Neons are junk, but do PT Cruisers share that esteem being based on the same platform? Wondering because I've come close to purchasing one a couple of times for my job. Easy vehicle to get tools in and out of. Seems to be a zealous lot too, those PT owners.

I am a diehard Mopar guy, but for my money the PT Cruiser was a neat idea, but lots of issues, primarily for me: Hard to work on and horrible safety rating. I have recommended to several people that if they are in the "cute" car market, look at a new Beetle or if you can afford them the Mini is great. A friend has had an SSR for a few months also and likes it a lot.

[Chuck D. Head]

HuckleCat, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:45 AM, said:

Whenever I think about the worst controllers, I always think of the N64 controller first.


Show me someone who thinks its a good controller, and I'll show you someone who's first console was a N64.

I started with the original Odyessy and now just about every system since. I never had any trouble using the N64 controller - in the day. I bought one at launch, it was our primary system of that generation and we had maybe 50 games at the time. After a long layoff and going back to the N64, it no longer felt "right" at least on certain games. I suppose Nintendo learned a bit from the experience - I think the Gamecube controller is my favorite of all with both the regular and the Wavebird fitting my hand like a glove.

The Intellivision controller is pretty tough for me sometimes, but the number keys have nothing to do with it, it is the side buttons. Colecovision standard controllers seem a bit easier for me to deal with.

[Rex Dart]

kroogur, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:27 AM, said:

Sometimes when articles are written about classic consoles or "worst" lists are made Atari 5200/Jaguar,Colecovision,Intellivision etc are bashed because of their weird "phone" keyboard style controllers usually by some wet behind the ears snot nose that returns to playing his/her PS3 or 360 after bashing the old weird technology.

Did they ever stop to think that the controller they are using right now is basically the tech that they just bashed? If you look at a PS3/360 controller you got what? 4 d-pad buttons,4 function buttons,2 triggers, 2 buttons above the triggers, 2 thumbsticks and 3 buttons in the center for a total of about 17 buttons and they are griping about the old controllers??

But they're not in that lousy phone keypad layout. There's more to it than just the number of buttons, obviously. The lousy design of the 80's has been improved with modern pads.

[desiv]

For me, they (phone controllers) weren't that great because they weren't Arcade like.
Remember (if you can, if not, google. ), BITD Arcade controls were usually a joystick with a button or two.
There were exceptions, but during the golden age of arcades (which is officially defined as the period of years when "I" was frequenting arcades!), there was a joystick, usually with a ball on top.
That was what I wanted at home...
So, the original Atari stick and Odyssey 2 stick (although there was no ball on top) were pretty close.
The Intellivision with it's flat disk and hundreds of buttons (OK, maybe not hundreds) just seemed wrong...
And the Colecovision pad looks like someone took a decent joystick, put it on top of an Intellivision pad, and then CRUSHED it..
What was that flat thing where the ball should be??

So, that was why I preferred more standard joysticks. Still do in fact..

In the same vein, when the NES came out (I was already onto computers by then, so I missed most of that) and I tried it a few times, I thought the "joypad" was weird and I never got into it... Just use your thumb? Craziness I say!!!

Now, you kids get off my lawn!!

desiv

Edited by desiv, Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:36 PM.

[flynnz]

I never really minded them back then (mostly cause everything was still new and we didn't have all that much to compare it to), but one thing I remember is never really needing to use the number pad all that much at all. So even back then I guess I never really saw the point of it.

[Austin]

kroogur, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:14 AM, said:

I guess I did but the gist of what I was getting at was when we were growing up with our "phones" we knew what the buttons did and we grew used to them until they were 2nd nature just like the modern controllers are to new gamers of today.

One of the key things you are missing is that gamers have been conditioned to the current style of controller for a very long time, starting with the SNES when shoulder buttons were introduced. Shortly thereafter, the PlayStation would expand on this concept by adding an extra set of shoulder buttons to go with the existing two, and then later including two analog sticks (while the N64 added one). Since then, controllers haven't changed much, some being shaped ergonomically better or worse depending on how you look at it. I guess my point is, the current controller design has been around for a long time now. Many feel it is comfortable, it generally works, and gamers that have been around for a while (not just the new ones) have grown accustomed to it.

Also, I am curious now--Is this even an appropriate comparison? Keypad controllers generally had two action buttons, but asides from the occasional action-adventure game (I'm thinking the D&D games on the Intellivision), how many games actually utilized the keypad buttons regularly in-game outside of difficulty selection and beginning a new game? In contrast, it's safe to say nearly every button is used in most games on modern consoles.

[supercat]

kroogur, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:27 AM, said:

Sometimes when articles are written about classic consoles or "worst" lists are made Atari 5200/Jaguar,Colecovision,Intellivision etc are bashed because of their weird "phone" keyboard style controllers usually by some wet behind the ears snot nose that returns to playing his/her PS3 or 360 after bashing the old weird technology.

I would aver that the problem is that many games require that the player have a number of buttons that can be operated by reflex, and controllers that had keypads, often did not have their other buttons well-placed for reflex operation. The paradigm used to be to have one hand hold the controller and operate buttons, while the other hand operates the joystick. This generally meant that there could only be two or three "reflex" buttons, and they'd have to be on the same side of the stick; unfortunately, many games tried to use the buttons on opposite sides of the stick for different functions. Today, the paradigm is to have both hands hold the controllers while fingers operate buttons and thumbs operate joysticks.

With regard to the comments about the N64 controller requiring three hands, I would agree that it would be a lousy controller for any game which attempted to use all its features simultaneously. I would suggest, however, that it should not be viewed as a three-handed controller, but rather as two controllers in one: a modern Xbox-style controller (if one ignores the stuff in the middle), or an older-style held-by-one-hand controller (if one ignores the rear triggers and such, and doesn't try to do do many things at a time with the top).

Sometimes I've thought it would be nice to design a controller with a keypad-ish touchscreen that had little transparent ribs on it to allow a number of operations to be done by 'feel'. That would seem especially useful for various types of sports or strategy games, allowing players to confidentially enter their plays with feedback they could see, but which other players could not. Of course, with the move away from using controllers at all, I'm not sure manufacturers will ever take advantage of the fact that cell phone screens have become amazingly cheap.

[toptenmaterial]

Emulated analogue sticks on the iphone/ipod touch suck, at least as of now. They may improve over time. One of the problems it that they are too often applied to classic arcade games, where the touch scheme is incompatable. There are new arcade type games that are excellent with touch controls, such a iFighter. But this is a game that was specifically designed for these controls.

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[bigbee99]

Random Terrain, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:40 AM, said:

I think you answered your own question. Modern controllers are usually more user-friendly and ergonomic. You can instantly press the correct button without looking.

I can't Well 360's is pretty good. I use it for emulation a lot. But I really liked the N64 controller. What a great stick! It just feels right. Gamecube on the other hand has that weird button layout.

I still prefer a D Pad to an analog stick though.

B

[Cynicaster]

kroogur, on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:27 AM, said:

Sometimes when articles are written about classic consoles or "worst" lists are made Atari 5200/Jaguar,Colecovision,Intellivision etc are bashed because of their weird "phone" keyboard style controllers usually by some wet behind the ears snot nose that returns to playing his/her PS3 or 360 after bashing the old weird technology.

Did they ever stop to think that the controller they are using right now is basically the tech that they just bashed? If you look at a PS3/360 controller you got what? 4 d-pad buttons,4 function buttons,2 triggers, 2 buttons above the triggers, 2 thumbsticks and 3 buttons in the center for a total of about 17 buttons and they are griping about the old controllers??

Come on man, really? I totally understand what you're saying about the group-think of the media and internet message boards and all that, but sometimes, if we remove our nostalgia goggles, and attempt to look at some of the design decisions on the older tech objectively, it's very easy to see why things moved in other directions over time.

I love playing retro games, hell, I have a PS3 and it is pretty much used for movies only. But I must admit, that PS3 controller is a fantastic design. I can use it for hours on end no problem at all. I never have to look at it to see where a certain button is, etc. On the other hand, I find Atari 7800, CV, and Inty controllers almost unusable. Literally, any game that takes more than a few minutes to play--especially if it requires constant firing--becomes physically painful. I think if I tried to do marathon sessions on any of those systems I'd wind up with tendonitis or something in a big hurry.

The original Atari 2600 joystick isn't bad at all by comparison, IMO. My hand still gets a bit cramped but I always found the directional stick quite responsive and the firebutton was much easier to use than those stupid side buttons on other designs of the day.

As for the N64 controller, looking back now, even though it introduced (re-introduced?) the inclusion of the analog stick--which I believe was a necessary progression for home gaming--it still managed to knock things back 10-15 years. That thing is absolutely horrible.

[kroogur]

Cynicaster, on Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:19 AM, said:

Come on man, really? I totally understand what you're saying about the group-think of the media and internet message boards and all that, but sometimes, if we remove our nostalgia goggles, and attempt to look at some of the design decisions on the older tech objectively, it's very easy to see why things moved in other directions over time.

Yes really. Yes the old controllers took some getting used to (as do the modern controllers) and the overlays were important but often lost but rather than put a positive more informative spin on the old tech they (they reviewers) bash it and cause younger folks to avoid the old stuff. History of any sort be it music,technology,culture..etc can be not only interesting but informative and sometimes beneficial to advancing new ideas.

Ergonomically the CV and Inty controllers were hideous but they gave way to better designs down the road not necessarily for their systems but for future systems. And the 5200 controllers taught us that quality control is a must, aftermarket controllers for any system are sometimes flimsy but the original equipment should be sturdy and dependable.

[AtariLeaf]

I could never stand fire buttons being on the side of the controller. Never felt comfortable or natural to me.

[Chuck D. Head]

And lets not forget, when the INtellivision was trying to compete with the 2600 and present an arcadey game, the controller did indeed suck ass, but when you pop in a RPG or strategy game, the controller really shined. Gonna go play me some Utopia.....