My 810 is damaging disks!

[Yoder]

Hi Guys,

 

Newish member here...mainly have just bought some things from here and haven't yet had the opportunity to post much. Anyways, like most of you, I played with these computers "BITD" and have recently gotten bitten by the 8-bit vintage computing bug (I have a Commodore and an Apple IIgs too) and hope to do some gaming and learn a little 6502 assembly programming.

 

Anyways, I recently picked up a whole Atari 800 set (for free!) with original software that looks to have been retired in the 80s and not really touched. It even has an Omnimon card! There is some great s/w with it like 10 Infocom games and a bunch of Synapse games that I've been going through and testing. I did some head cleaning (using a head cleaning disk modified to be SS) and it addressed some boot errors I was getting, but I've found that a BUNCH (like 6 or more) of Synapse game disks that I have are getting stuck mid-boot, and then when I inspect the disk, I'm seeing one or two rings on the bottom side of disk surface...and the disk seemed to be hot...like the head was dragging. Then it refuses to even try to boot when I tried it again. I've destroyed at least 6 games (most fairly rare) and all but one of them (Wolfenstein) were Synapse games. Interestingly, the Synapse games that I have that have a different style label are OK. For example, Shamus I is fine, but Shamus II is damaged now...as with the other ones I have of that (newer?) label style. Wondering if they changed disk material or something.

 

Now, the Infocom games and many others seem to work fine, but I'm still nervous with this thing. I don't want to mess anything else up, and I still have some disks to go through (including one or two Synapse games)...

 

I'm not afraid to take it apart to clean the head or at least look at it to see what's going on. Can you guys give me some advice here? Should I just drop it and get a 1050? I understand that early 810s were wrought with problems...maybe that's what's going on. Or are these disks just shot, and the drive is staying on the same track trying to retrieve data, and further ruining it?

 

I hope this wasn't too rambling, but I wanted to give you the whole story. This is all part of the hobby, but it really is a bummer :-/

 

Thanks in advance....

 

P.S. Damaged games from memory...could be a couple more :-(

 

Protector

Shamus Case II

Fort Apocalypse

Blue Max

Necromancer

Shadow World

Castle Wolfenstein

[20ohm20]

I referred to this thread when trying to locate the read/write head on my 810's. I've never had good luck with those cleaning disks; I just use a Q-Tip and rubbing alcohol.

 

Interestingly enough, I've brought back to life the most grungy, filthy Commodore 1541's by just cleaning the R/W heads. The Atari 810's I've come across always seem to have mechanical issues. :/

[Rybags]

You're way better off opening the drive up and cleaning the head with cotton bud + head cleaner.

 

With old floppies, it's a good idea to see if they turn freely by hand first. If they're binding up, then they won't work well and could easily get more damaged.

 

Best option of all is to just download the games you have and keep the originals safe.

[+orpheuswaking]

Some disks are more prone to aging than others, it just depends what disks Synapse used...

[Yoder]

Thanks, guys. Yes, I read "that thread" above last night. That's how I ended up modifying my DS cleaning disk to make it a SS one. Seems the jury is still out on opening it up vs using the head cleaning disk. I've also opened all my C1541s up and just cleaned the nasty black stuff off with a q-tip. It does seem to be the way to go...at least when you first get the drive... I'll probably do the same to this one now. I would have, except I realized that the screws were under those little stickers on top and I don't want to damage them. Any tips?

 

Ok, so it sounds like these disks could be just be bad, too? That would make me feel better. I probably should still get a 1050...and a SIO2PC...

[+orpheuswaking]

I would still open it up and clean it, I've used a cleaning disk before and then opened it up and done the Q tip method and removed tons more gunk... They just don't work that well.

 

 

 

[+bob1200xl]

For the most part, a diskette with end-of-life binder (the glue that holds the oxide on the surface) will allow oxide to accumulate on the head. Then, any other disks that you run on that drive will be damamged, also. Generally, if you clean the head well, you will be OK - if you find the original bad disk. If you keep mounting 'crashed' diskettes on your drive, you will suffer the same problems over and over.

 

The head is a hard ceramic, so you can scrub it with a cloth soaked in head cleaner (98% alcohol - take your skin off) without hurting it. You should see no oxide at all when you are finished cleaning.

 

The binder goes bad if you store your disks in a hot environment, or just from old age and poor formulation. I have thousands of disks and virtually none of them have failed after 25 years. Those that do have problems are most likely binding in their jackets, not losing oxide.

 

You can have electrical problems that may erase part of your disks, but not likely. Old 810s would trash the disk if you turned them on/off with a diskette loaded.

 

You really need a known, good drive to get a handle on problems like this.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

Hi Guys,

 

Newish member here...mainly have just bought some things from here and haven't yet had the opportunity to post much. Anyways, like most of you, I played with these computers "BITD" and have recently gotten bitten by the 8-bit vintage computing bug (I have a Commodore and an Apple IIgs too) and hope to do some gaming and learn a little 6502 assembly programming.

 

Anyways, I recently picked up a whole Atari 800 set (for free!) with original software that looks to have been retired in the 80s and not really touched. It even has an Omnimon card! There is some great s/w with it like 10 Infocom games and a bunch of Synapse games that I've been going through and testing. I did some head cleaning (using a head cleaning disk modified to be SS) and it addressed some boot errors I was getting, but I've found that a BUNCH (like 6 or more) of Synapse game disks that I have are getting stuck mid-boot, and then when I inspect the disk, I'm seeing one or two rings on the bottom side of disk surface...and the disk seemed to be hot...like the head was dragging. Then it refuses to even try to boot when I tried it again. I've destroyed at least 6 games (most fairly rare) and all but one of them (Wolfenstein) were Synapse games. Interestingly, the Synapse games that I have that have a different style label are OK. For example, Shamus I is fine, but Shamus II is damaged now...as with the other ones I have of that (newer?) label style. Wondering if they changed disk material or something.

 

Now, the Infocom games and many others seem to work fine, but I'm still nervous with this thing. I don't want to mess anything else up, and I still have some disks to go through (including one or two Synapse games)...

 

I'm not afraid to take it apart to clean the head or at least look at it to see what's going on. Can you guys give me some advice here? Should I just drop it and get a 1050? I understand that early 810s were wrought with problems...maybe that's what's going on. Or are these disks just shot, and the drive is staying on the same track trying to retrieve data, and further ruining it?

 

I hope this wasn't too rambling, but I wanted to give you the whole story. This is all part of the hobby, but it really is a bummer :-/

 

Thanks in advance....

 

P.S. Damaged games from memory...could be a couple more :-(

 

Protector

Shamus Case II

Fort Apocalypse

Blue Max

Necromancer

Shadow World

Castle Wolfenstein

[Bryan]

Grooves cut in into the bottom surface of the disk is a sure sign of binder (oxide glue) failure.

[Rybags]

The head-cleaner disks are more a "preventitive maintenance" thing than a "fix it" thing.

 

If the head just has a few months worth of normal accumulation, then it should work fine, if it's got multiple years worth, then it's a bit of a waste of time.

[Bryan]

I did some head cleaning (using a head cleaning disk modified to be SS) and it addressed some boot errors I was getting,

 

 

Good call. I wonder how many people know that using a double sided head cleaner (with access hole on top & bottom) will tear up the pressure pad.

 

I need to find a good way to make new replica disk labels for when disks fail (or the labels fall off). I bought an expensive box a Avery 5.25" labels and they barely stick.

[Yoder]

I did some head cleaning (using a head cleaning disk modified to be SS) and it addressed some boot errors I was getting,

 

 

Good call. I wonder how many people know that using a double sided head cleaner (with access hole on top & bottom) will tear up the pressure pad.

 

I need to find a good way to make new replica disk labels for when disks fail (or the labels fall off). I bought an expensive box a Avery 5.25" labels and they barely stick.

 

Well, I actually didn't know that at first. I did a head cleaning first using it as-is and I noticed that the white thing in the cleaning disk was getting fuzzy looking (top half), so I figured I'd research it a bit. That's when I learned the err of my ways. At least I stopped at one quick cleaning. I might see if I can drop the cleaning thing into one of my "dead" disk jackets to make it a little more appealing, and to keep the card stock from getting soggy, tape from coming off, etc.

 

Hopefully that one cleaning I did with it didn't mess anything up :-/ Actually, I'm guessing that this system was stored in horrible conditions for the last 25 years. I'm actually lucky that it works as well as it does...and that it was free!

[Bryan]

To block the top hole, take some wide (2"-ish) packaging tape and make 2"x2" square. Now, make a 1"x2" strip and place it across the middle of the other piece back to back (adhesive-to-adhesive). Now stick the square over the access hole with the remaining adhesive strips on the left and right side of the hole. That way, the cleaning disk rubs on the back of the smaller strip.

[Bryan]

Hey Yoder, I sent you a PM.

[+kheller2]

Could be the pressure pad is worn out and mostly gone now. Take it apart and see how much if any felt you got left.

[+orpheuswaking]

Could be the pressure pad is worn out and mostly gone now. Take it apart and see how much if any felt you got left.

 

Pressure pad would have damaged the top side of the disk, not the bottom... Also he would have errors with other disks too...

 

Not to say that checking the felt pad is a bad idea, when thy get flattened and compacted I use a jewlers screwdriver to try and raise the nap a bit.

[R.Cade]

That is very normal for old Synapse disks. The Mylar coating comes off on most of their old originals. I usually try to image them the first time they are used, but commonly they don't even survive one time.

 

[ijor]

This is a slightly edited post I made somewhere else sometime ago (should probably belong to some FAQ):

 

Some disks might get damaged when trying to use them. The wear is produced by the rotation and the friction of the head. Apparently after so many years, some disks loose the lubrication properties on the disk surface. And then they cannot tolerate the friction and pressure of the drive’s head while rotating. The effects could have several levels of damage. It might just make some more noise than usual. It might leave dark grooves in the surface. And in the worst case it could produce a complete cut of the disk in two separate rings.

 

There is not much that you can do about this. The more severe the damage, usually the louder the noise is (because the disk is not rotating well). But usually once you hear the noise, it is too late. If this happens to you, make sure to clean the drive’s head before inserting another disk. This is because debris from the damaged disk surface might have stayed in the head, and might further damage more disks. If in doubt, try reading an old not-original disk that you won’t mind loosing; and see if you can read it correctly.

 

I observed this problem mostly in Synapse disks released around 1983 (for example, Blue Max). I didn’t find this problem with the newest Synapse titles like Blue Max 2001, or with the very old Synapse releases with the golden label. I also observed this problem in a few ICD disks (Sparta DOS), but in a less severe level, and also in some Avalon Hill ones.

 

It is obvious that the problem depends on some particular type of virgin disks that Synapse (and others) used at that period. But it seems it also depend on how the disks were stored in all those years (heat, humidity, ultraviolet rays ???). It is not dirt, it happens in disks that look pristine. So probably the combination of both issues are relevant.

 

I want to stress that it is very important to give the drive a good clean up after this happens. Otherwise, chances that you would damage whatever disk(s) you put in the drive. In most of these cases, a "light" clean up with a cleaning disk is not enough. I agree with Bob, best way is to open the drive and clean the head manually. I use gauze sponges with isopropyl alcohol. But the important point is that you must apply reasonable pressure to the head, don't be too gentle. And as I said above, first try with some non-important disk.

 

Note that a double sided drive is probably worse, because the "poor" disk is suffering the friction and pressure of both heads at the same time.

[Bryan]

Note that a double sided drive is probably worse, because the "poor" disk is suffering the friction and pressure of both heads at the same time.

Yep. I discovered putting failing disks in the XF551 results in a lot of squealing (and not from me).

[Yoder]

Wow, thanks for those posts, guys! Sounds like I'm seeing this synapse pattern too! Yes, the older gold-labeled ones are OK. It's the newer ones that suffer. Ok, I'm gonna take the drive apart and start cleaning it. I did notice some black garbage from this...it was a little piece that collected at the edge of the disk window. I'm sure some is on the head too.

 

What a shame that they used shoddy disks...but they are antiques after all. Who'd have thought that we geeks would be playing with these things 30 years later Ironically, I never actually owned a computer with 5.25" disks until I got my Commodore 9 months ago. BITD I had a TI and then a Tandy 1000 HX with 3.5" drives. I missed the whole 5.25" revolution :-/ I was so looking forward to nibbling disks to make them double sided back when I was a kid

[Yoder]

Ok, I took it apart last night and cleaned the head with a swab. I was surprised to see that even before I started cleaning it, it looked very clean. I could clearly see the off-white ceramic head with the dark lines...no black stuff on it or anything that I'm used to seeing on C1541s. I actually did try to stick a swab in from the front to clean it the other day...maybe I actually got to it that way? Or maybe the head cleaning disk worked a little?

 

Point is, I cleaned it with some elbow grease using the swab and isopropanol and I didn't really get much off of it... Seems like these Synapse disks have just aged poorly. I'm going to try to "eye them up" to see if I can see a pattern in these disks...like the batch or manufacturer. I did notice that one of them has a peculiar texture to it...like it's stippled with little dots. I'll check the other ones too.

 

I still have one more to test...Drelbs... Not sure if should take the chance, but what good is it if I never even try the disk out?

 

I'll keep the screws out of the drive as I continue testing it and the disks I have so that I can keep it clean.

 

Now, just to see if I can get or build and SIO2PC cable.