49 replies to this topic

[Curt Vendel]

No more TIA audio in 7800 games

[DracIsBack]

Shawn Sr., on Sat Nov 5, 2011 5:34 PM, said:

As you have made very clear the 7800 CAN'T "do that" without the XM module. That sounds alot like someone seeing a SEGA 32X for the first time and thinking the software was running
on a stock GENESIS which as we all know is also impossible.

Except for it's not. As has been said before, this is more akin to a souped up NES cartridge with additional MMC hardware, battery saves etc ... than a 32X which added twin 32-bit processors to the Genesis.

If they had added twin 68000's to the XM, I'd find it more akin to what you said. But it's still the same old 6502.

People get hung up on the 32X comparison because of the casing. The reality is that it's likely cheaper to do it this way than to try and do individual cartridges with this hardware on different games.

To me, this akin to Nintendo taking the Castlevania 3 hardware and putting it in a seperate unit.

Edited by DracIsBack, Sun Nov 6, 2011 10:42 AM.

[Shawn Sr.]

DracIsBack, on Sun Nov 6, 2011 10:40 AM, said:

To me, this akin to Nintendo taking the Castlevania 3 hardware and putting it in a seperate unit.

MMC5 might as well have been an add on unit so I agree with you there for sure. If the NES was to have had a longer lifespan
putting similar hardware into a addon like the "Aladdin" might have been a wise choice so that the individual carts didn't have to
have all the hardware added in each unit as a cost saving method. In the end an addon is an addon and without it the software
just can't run if it needs the extra hardware which all XM games will. You can't get Yamaha sound out of the TIA, You can't get 128k
of ram out of 16k of ram and you surely can't get the HSC rutine to run without HSC hardware.

I love the idea of the XM and what it brings to the 7800 but to think the software is not enhanced by the XM is not only foolish but
defeats the whole point of this wonderful device you must agree. Heck I think the XM is awesome just for having POKEY and the HSC
let alone all the other bells and whistles.

[DracIsBack]

Shawn Sr., on Sun Nov 6, 2011 12:30 PM, said:

You can't get Yamaha sound out of the TIA

So here's the thing: The 7800 was always designed to allow support for other sound chips in cartridge. GCC knew when they were building it that they needed better sounds and didn't feel they had room or budget to do so, so they added the ability to include chips in the cartridge.

POKEY was the first chip, but it wasn't the first intended to be in there. They were working on a second (lower cost, higher performance) called GUMBY that got cancelled as it was in dev when the Tramiels took over.

So while it took me a while to get up to appreciating the Yamaha chip in there, it was a chip from the era vs ... say ... something modern.

Quote

You can't get 128k of ram out of 16k of ram

No, but RAM enhancements were also in use then and - to me - keeping with the spirit. It's not - like the 32X going to 64K to 2 MB.

Quote

and you surely can't get the HSC rutine to run without HSC hardware.

Again, GCC intended for high score saves from the beginning and had not only a High Score Cart and high score software in most early games. Nothing new

Quote

I love the idea of the XM and what it brings to the 7800 but to think the software is not enhanced by the XM is not only foolish but
defeats the whole point of this wonderful device you must agree.

I don't find it detracting at all.

1. It solves the problem of enabling cartridge based enhancements without the cost of individual games;
2. It still keeps within the original ideas of GCC (additional memory, high score carts, sound chips), but in a common unit.
3. It allows us to dream a little of what might have been had Jack Tramiel not be so tight-fisted. Remember, this is a man that killed off the high score cart, keyboard etc (which Curt is now re-enabling), almost never allowed POKEYS and put in the 7800 dev docs that people had to get it in writing from the Tramiels before using extra memory.

Plus it's a labour of love.

If they had stuck an Intel Core Duo, 4 gb of RAM, a 2010 graphics card etc in there, I'd agree.

[seemo]

GroovyBee, on Sat Nov 5, 2011 4:27 PM, said:

... I just wrote an analyser to strip the information needed and then a 6502 driver for the 7800.

Just ? Let me just express my admiration, then

[GroovyBee]

seemo, on Sun Nov 6, 2011 2:28 PM, said:

Just ? Let me just express my admiration, then

Thanks for the compliment. Because the sounds aren't generated algorithmically you end up with a set of register values and then a time delay before you have update the YM2151 again. The original PC data files were saved and processed at 44100 samples per second so the 7800 driver has to switch MARIA DMA off (so no screen) to play the data. However, if a YM2151 tracker existed for the 7800 you could make the in game sounds and music update maybe 50/60 or 100/120 times per second (like a normal A8 RMT POKEY tune).

[GroovyBee]

Back from day two of the show. I was last to arrive and found that somebody had swapped my TV from yesterday for one that didn't have any sound by the time I got there . I had to go through three TVs yesterday to find one that had working sound. However, yesterday there were some spare TVs available but today they had gone. That was a shame because there were some real 7800 gamers playing on the XM today.

Again, lots of positive comments about the XM and 7800 today. Plus some favourable comparisons to the NES about the 7800's lack of flicker and perceived improvement in graphics quality due to the number of colours on screen in the homebrew games on the CC2. There was also some interest in how you start programming games for retro systems too. I think a few more orders for XMs will be going Curt's way .

[Curt Vendel]

Exactly,

That is why the cartridge connector has an Ext Aud line on it, just for that very feature of better quality audio chips being used.

High Score was always proposed and even in proto's like Rescue on Fractalus and even a proto schematic for a 16K memory cartridge, the 7800 was always intended to allow for expanded memory...

The console was truly designed from day one to be expandable and its a shame that the Tramiels didn't leverage these abilities nor did GCC have the foresight to release enhancements to it on their own as 3rd party upgrades.

The 7800 has always been my most favorite of all of the Atari consoles, and I'm just glad that with everyone input and help and although several people dropped out of the project or jumped on and jumped off, that really through all of this, its been Mark and I that have gotten this to the final stretch.

Knowing that Pacmanplus, Mark and others plan games for the XM and games that will be XM aware.



Curt

DracIsBack, on Sun Nov 6, 2011 1:51 PM, said:

Shawn Sr., on Sun Nov 6, 2011 12:30 PM, said:

You can't get Yamaha sound out of the TIA

So here's the thing: The 7800 was always designed to allow support for other sound chips in cartridge. GCC knew when they were building it that they needed better sounds and didn't feel they had room or budget to do so, so they added the ability to include chips in the cartridge.

POKEY was the first chip, but it wasn't the first intended to be in there. They were working on a second (lower cost, higher performance) called GUMBY that got cancelled as it was in dev when the Tramiels took over.

So while it took me a while to get up to appreciating the Yamaha chip in there, it was a chip from the era vs ... say ... something modern.

Quote

You can't get 128k of ram out of 16k of ram

No, but RAM enhancements were also in use then and - to me - keeping with the spirit. It's not - like the 32X going to 64K to 2 MB.

Quote

and you surely can't get the HSC rutine to run without HSC hardware.

Again, GCC intended for high score saves from the beginning and had not only a High Score Cart and high score software in most early games. Nothing new

Quote

I love the idea of the XM and what it brings to the 7800 but to think the software is not enhanced by the XM is not only foolish but
defeats the whole point of this wonderful device you must agree.

I don't find it detracting at all.

1. It solves the problem of enabling cartridge based enhancements without the cost of individual games;
2. It still keeps within the original ideas of GCC (additional memory, high score carts, sound chips), but in a common unit.
3. It allows us to dream a little of what might have been had Jack Tramiel not be so tight-fisted. Remember, this is a man that killed off the high score cart, keyboard etc (which Curt is now re-enabling), almost never allowed POKEYS and put in the 7800 dev docs that people had to get it in writing from the Tramiels before using extra memory.

Plus it's a labour of love.

If they had stuck an Intel Core Duo, 4 gb of RAM, a 2010 graphics card etc in there, I'd agree.

[AtariNerd]

Just take all of my money now, Mark.

As the guys have been saying, the XM doesn't change what the 7800 does, it just combines all of the produced and intended proto-type add-ons onto one board, allowing users/developers to access their functions for use in programs, without sacrificing multiple instances of existing hardware or jury-rigging existing carts , thus allowing the 7800 to be used to its' full potential. It might be slightly optimal of the Atari that was, but believable in terms of an Atari that would have competed with the likes of Nintendo; none of the functions beyond what was possible during the era. Let's put it this way - if Nintendo had had the 7800 as their hardware platform, with the same level of support bestowed on it in-house or by other developers as the Famicon/NES, it might likely have had hardware development that matched/surpassed this in its life-time.

Edited by AtariNerd, Sun Nov 6, 2011 11:24 PM.

[GroovyBee]

First some general pictures :-

Oldschool Gaming stand (run by TMR) :-


Halloween on Atari 7800 and Skool Daze on Oric Atmos :-


Edge Grinder on C64 :-


Callisto on Atari 800XL :-



The Keep on VIC 20 :-


Chuckie Egg on Atom and Manic Miner on Dragon 32 :-


Reaxion on Spectrum +2 :-


Out-space on C64 :-

[GroovyBee]

Onto the XM games...

Apple Snaffle


Halloween



Outpost 26 (formally Monster!)



Videos will be edited and put up later (depends how big they are).

[GroovyBee]

This is the "Round clear" track from "Alex Kidd: The Lost Stars" played on the the XM's YM2151 :-

 Ym2151DemoAlexKidd.wmv   1MB   75 downloads

[GroovyBee]

Out of general interest there is lots of Replay on Youtube :-

[DracIsBack]

Saweet! Can't wait to see video of the XM games.

[GroovyBee]

Some good event photos here :-

http://www.flickr.co.../uberpixelphoto

The first 28 pages are of Replay.

[Curt Vendel]

XM Games running at Replay UK 2011 on real hardware:

http://www.atarimuse.../7800/expansion

Bottom of page - Nov 7th Update

[GroovyBee]

My thanks go to Curt for hosting the file (its 15MB). Enjoy

[purenergy]

Thanks for the great pictures and video. The XM looks and sounds fantastic.
And, Thanks to everyone for your hard work on this excellent project!

[DarthCloud]

Awesome! Need to save money to get all those games!

[Jinks]

It looks great!! But I still think it just needs more cowbell!!!

[Lendorien]

Wow. I got to say that all of the games shown there look amazing.

[GroovyBee]

Thanks for the compliments so far. Sorry the audio in the video is so bad. Saturday was a very busy and noisy day.

[UKRetrogamer]

GroovyBee, on Tue Nov 8, 2011 3:47 AM, said:

Saturday was a very busy and noisy day.

It certainly was. My friend Mark, (featured in the 4th YouTube video above holding up his ticket) and I spoke to you for some time about the XM and tried out some of the games.

Excellent stuff - so much so, I've just placed my order for an Expansion module from the Legacy Engineering site.

Now I just need to locate a CC2 to make the most of it. (Unless the XM enhanced games can be loaded from a Harmony Cart, that is?)

Edited by UKRetrogamer, Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:54 PM.

[OldAtarian]

GroovyBee, on Sat Nov 5, 2011 4:02 PM, said:

YM2151 demo :-

Ym2151demo.wmv

*Waiting for the 7800 XM version of Doom.*

[mimo]

UKRetrogamer, on Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:51 PM, said:

GroovyBee, on Tue Nov 8, 2011 3:47 AM, said:

Saturday was a very busy and noisy day.

It certainly was. My friend Mark, (featured in the 4th YouTube video above holding up his ticket) and I spoke to you for some time about the XM and tried out some of the games.

Excellent stuff - so much so, I've just placed my order for an Expansion module from the Legacy Engineering site.

Now I just need to locate a CC2 to make the most of it. (Unless the XM enhanced games can be loaded from a Harmony Cart, that is?)

No, we just need to prey that the harmony 2 cart gets released soon