40 replies to this topic

[onlysublime]

Okay, I went to try to download Doom to my second 360 so I could do system link co-op or when I felt like playing it in a different room, and I couldn't find it on XBLA. So I google around and find out it got pulled because when iD switched hands, Activision lost the rights to put Doom on XBLA and thus had to be pulled off???

Argh. I should've copied Doom to all my 360s before iD switched to Bethesda. Now, it's stuck on only 1 360 (though that 360 is my primary 360). Man, if that hard drive ever dies, I'm screwed. I can't redownload the game.

[HammR25]

Check your download history and see if you can download it to the other console. It's still in my download history.

[onlysublime]

dude, you're my hero! *high five*

[Atariboy]

Just make sure your primary Xbox Live account that you used to purchase Doom with is logged into system 2 since any account on system 1 will be able to access Doom thanks to how Microsoft's DRM works.

Edited by Atariboy, Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:47 PM.

[Pixelboy]

And there you have it, the reason why downloadable games and content are a bad thing for gamers, and the gaming industry. Nothing that is download-only today will survive to see the next decade.

[onlysublime]

Pixelboy, on Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:55 PM, said:

And there you have it, the reason why downloadable games and content are a bad thing for gamers, and the gaming industry. Nothing that is download-only today will survive to see the next decade.

To be fair, there's no ideal world. Getting gouged by people while trying to get Battlesphere for the Atari Jag shows how terrible the collector's world is. I can't even get a 4 year old game in the store for any console any more. You have to go to an online retailer to get them. So the old traditional way is no better.

I prefer the download world. As long as I have access to the content, it's a better situation than having to keep discs or cartridges in good condition.

[wood_jl]

Pixelboy, on Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:55 PM, said:

And there you have it, the reason why downloadable games and content are a bad thing for gamers, and the gaming industry. Nothing that is download-only today will survive to see the next decade.

Exactly! Maybe won't have much of a choice in the future, but you bring up a noteworthy and excellent point. Retrogaming will be VERY retro-only, in the future.

onlysublime, on Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:22 PM, said:

To be fair, there's no ideal world. Getting gouged by people while trying to get Battlesphere for the Atari Jag shows how terrible the collector's world is. I can't even get a 4 year old game in the store for any console any more. You have to go to an online retailer to get them. So the old traditional way is no better.

Well, Battlesphere for the Jag is ***HARDLY REPRESENTATIVE*** of the rest of the traditional way. Getting DOOM for PS1 or original Xbox for $5 from Amazon.com, Ebay, a pawn shop, or forum marketplace IS. Battlesphere for the Jag is an absolute RIPOFF, since you could get an Xbox 360, and HDTV, and a nice library of the best games, for about what that ONE Jaguar game sells for. I almost have to choke on my drink laughing, that someone would forgo the 360/HDTV/games combo for the single Jaguar game. HA HA HA! Of course, this is NOT representative. What I have proposed ($5 PS1/Xbox game) is a little closer, even if a bit cheap of an example.

onlysublime, on Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:22 PM, said:

I prefer the download world. As long as I have access to the content, it's a better situation than having to keep discs or cartridges in good condition.

Yeah, as long as you have access to the content - therein lies the rub. When you don't, you're f**ked. I don't know what kind of treatment you subject your discs or cartridges to, but all of my cartridges work (and still look like new) after over 20 years, and most of my discs do too, and the vast majority of those were bought used. As long as you don't have ADHD kids in the house (and are not ADHD yourself) then it seems there is a bit of durability, when a modicum of care is applied.

[moycon]

wood_jl, on Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:36 PM, said:

Yeah, as long as you have access to the content - therein lies the rub. When you don't, you're f**ked.

How exactly so? Are you suggesting when the servers go offline, the content will magically be deleted from the 360? Of course it won't, I'll still be playing my DLC of Pac-Man Championship when the servers go off line. Besides that, do you not think that when these servers do go offline you won't be able to play them on any one of a dozen other machines via emulation? When is that going to stop do you suppose?? Using PS1 as an example, how many of those games could you play right now via emulation if you wanted? If you answered nearly every single one, you would be correct. Heck lets go back to the Atari 2600, how many of the 2600 games can you play if you wanted? Damn near every one of them? Riiiiight. No ones getting f**cked in any sense of the word. We pay our $5-$10, we play a game. What problem do you see in that? Let me ask you this. What do you have to show for the $10 you spent at McDonalds the last time you went? Nothing? Do you feel f**cked?? People that download games aren't looking for a collectible, they are looking for an experience, similar to when you ride a roller coaster, or pay to get a massage, but better because after you ride a coaster, you can't revisit that same experience again, but in this case, you can with a quick press of a button and you will be able to for years and years, yes even after the servers are gone.

To be honest if I paid $5 for a game and could only play it for 15 or 20 year and then I knew it disappeared forever after that, you know I'd still buy it, and I'd play it, and I'd enjoy it and in 15 years I wouldn't give a frogs fat ass because I'd be playing new games! Most people think that way. A new system comes out, they trade in the old and get the latest and greatest. This hoarder mentality is silly. The person I see getting f**cked is someone who refuses to buy a decent game because they think they might not be able to play it in 20 years.

[SoulBlazer]

moycon, on Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:03 PM, said:

This hoarder mentality is silly. The person I see getting f**cked is someone who refuses to buy a decent game because they think they might not be able to play it in 20 years.

+1 for you, good sir.

And that, right there, is why I'm a gamer and not a collector.

Edited by SoulBlazer, Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:38 AM.

[Pixelboy]

moycon, on Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:03 PM, said:

To be honest if I paid $5 for a game and could only play it for 15 or 20 year and then I knew it disappeared forever after that, you know I'd still buy it, and I'd play it, and I'd enjoy it and in 15 years I wouldn't give a frogs fat ass because I'd be playing new games! Most people think that way. A new system comes out, they trade in the old and get the latest and greatest. This hoarder mentality is silly. The person I see getting f**cked is someone who refuses to buy a decent game because they think they might not be able to play it in 20 years.

Okay, I can understand the point you're trying to make, but then let me ask you this: Do you consider video games as works of art, or just consumer products? That's where the tragedy lies, in my sense.

This thread was started with Doom, a game that anyone today can play on their PCs, so it's not a good example of what I'm getting at. Neither are PlayStation or Atari 2600 games, which you noted, for mostly the same reason. Instead, take games like Mega Man 9 or 10, or Shadow Complex. Such games don't exist on solid media, and once these games can no longer be downloaded AND the Xbox 360 / PS3 / Wii systems become obsolete, then these games will be lost forever. And it IS going to happen, you can't deny it.

If you view these download-only games as simple consumer products, then of course you won't care what happens to them in the long run. But I for one cannot bring myself to see these games as pure time-killing fodder. To me, they are works of art. If I were a games developper making download-only games for consoles, I would feel pretty depressed about my games falling into complete oblivion within the span of ten years, while much older games still survive (on real hardware, as abandonware or under emulation).

Also, I think you're taking your point a bit far when you invoke the term "hoarding". There's nothing wrong with owning (and hanging onto) the games you have fond memories of. I don't currently own a Super-NES, but if I ever get one again, you can be sure that I will track down a copy of Super Metroid, Mega Man X/X2/X3, Super Mario World, and roughly 10 others which I really enjoyed years ago. Owning 10 to 15 games for an old system can hardly be called "hoarding", yet it's something I will never be able to do with Mega Man 9, Mega Man 10 or Shadow Complex.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't play download-only games. I've played with MM9-10 and have enjoyed them. What I am saying is that it's a tragedy that these games will eventually be wiped out of human history because they never came out on physical media. A hundred years from now, all that will be known of download-only games will be old magazine clips found in online archives. And that's why I say download-only games and content are bad for gamers, and by extension, the gaming industry.

[moycon]

Pixelboy, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:39 AM, said:

What I am saying is that it's a tragedy that these games will eventually be wiped out of human history because they never came out on physical media.

But what you're really doing is assuming something that makes little sense. Take Hydrophobia, a game that is only available via DLC. You think that because it's DLC only that someday it is magically going to disappear forever. Why would you think that? With the vast amount of data storage we have today, why would you assume there wouldn't be maybe one backup of this game in the future? People can pirate and play 360 games now. When do you think this ability is going to cease...and why? Doom, and PS1 and Atari games are all perfect examples. It sounds like you have it in your head you need a physical copy of data to back it up, not sure why. I have my copy of Hydrophobia downloaded to all 4 of my 360's, if I want to I can back it up to a memory card or a USB drive. No physical copy, five different backups, and that's just me. I'm confused why you think these are going to disappear.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for pirating games at all. I think if a game is for sale right now, you need to support the people that made it and kick them some cash, but in your world where these games aren't available via any other way, if you really wanted to play them, you could is all I'm saying. My advice, go ahead and support these artist now, in the future... well just worry about that 15 years from now if it's still that important to you and in the mean time try to get your $5 worth.

[Pixelboy]

moycon, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:32 AM, said:

Pixelboy, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:39 AM, said:

What I am saying is that it's a tragedy that these games will eventually be wiped out of human history because they never came out on physical media.

But what you're really doing is assuming something that makes little sense. Take Hydrophobia, a game that is only available via DLC. You think that because it's DLC only that someday it is magically going to disappear forever. Why would you think that?

Because no DLG can be expected to be available for download forever, because the consoles that these DLGs were programmed for will become obsolete and be discarded by a majority of households within the next ten years (especially when game companies stop making games for them) and also because I don't trust game companies to reissue new versions of their games in the future. Yes, it happens all the time, but only for high-profile products that everyone has heard of, and will surely want to play again. Do you expect Capcom to ever go through the trouble of re-releasing Little Nemo the Dream Master, or Legendary Wings, or Gun.Smoke, or Street Fighter 2010, or Codename Viper? I don't expect DLGs made today to be reissued in the future, unless they had such strong sales that they became classics in the gaming community. I haven't seen that happen with many DLGs. Even recognized games like Shadow Complex don't reach that status.

Quote

With the vast amount of data storage we have today, why would you assume there wouldn't be maybe one backup of this game in the future? People can pirate and play 360 games now. When do you think this ability is going to cease...and why? Don't get me wrong, I'm not for pirating games at all. I think if a game is for sale right now, you need to support the people that made it and kick them some cash, but in your world where these games aren't available via any other way, if you really wanted to play them, you could is all I'm saying. My advice, go ahead and support these artist now, in the future... well just worry about that 15 years from now if it's still that important to you and in the mean time try to get your $5 worth.

Sure, I don't mind paying a few bucks for a game that appeals to me. But in about ten years from now, we'll both see how many of today's high-quality DLGs will have survived the evolution of consoles...

[moycon]

Pixelboy, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:33 AM, said:

Because no DLG can be expected to be available for download forever, because the consoles that these DLGs were programmed for will become obsolete and be discarded by a majority of households within the next ten years (especially when game companies stop making games for them) and also because I don't trust game companies to reissue new versions of their games in the future.

But how many copies of the games will gamers have by them? A million copies? More? If there are no other options at that time would you mind playing the game hacked? If not, you have no argument. Unless you need an official re-issue to play a game you know perfectly well the data will be backed up and easily accessed from any device that has an internet connection. I just don't see a problem here. Also I understand there is nothing wrong with buying something and holding on to it. Maybe hoarding was a bad word to use...call it collecting if you wish. As long as you don't associate these DLC games with whatever you call it, you'll be fine. Again you don't download a game to hoard it or collect it. You download to play it.

[Pixelboy]

moycon, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:43 AM, said:

But how many copies of the games will gamers have by them? A million copies? More? If there are no other options at that time would you mind playing the game hacked? If not, you have no argument.

I'm not sure I follow. You're talking about a DLG downloaded a million times? If yes, onto what medium? I'm talking about games that were specifically designed for the XBLA, or Wiiware, etc. Once the 360/PS3/Wii will have been replaced by the next generation of consoles, on what medium will I play the DLG? I'd say there's less than a 50/50 chance that today's DLGs will run on the next-gen consoles. And as the years go by, it will be increasingly difficult to find a working 360/PS3/Wii that contains the DLGs I want to play.

Quote

Unless you need an official re-issue to play a game you know perfectly well the data will be backed up and easily accessed from any device that has an internet connection. I just don't see a problem here. Also I understand there is nothing wrong with buying something and holding on to it. Maybe hoarding was a bad word to use...call it collecting if you wish. As long as you don't associate these DLC games with whatever you call it, you'll be fine. Again you don't download a game to hoard it or collect it. You download to play it.

I like to own what I pay for. Taking away a product I paid for against my will is not my idea of good business practice. But that's just my opinion.

[moycon]

Pixelboy, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:10 PM, said:

I like to own what I pay for. But that's just my opinion.

So you are saying you have never paid for a ride on an amusement park ride? A haircut? A home inspection? A doctors visit? To have your fortune told? A big mac? I bet I could name a dozen more instances where you have paid for things in the past that you didn't have anything to show for even a short time later. Not sure why you think this is different. It's not in my eyes. You're on a beach and you want a massage right now? You pay a person for it, you get a massage. You want to play a game right now? You pay for it, you download it, you play the game and unlike the massage, you can play it a million times if you want.

Also yes earlier I was talking about people downloading a game to a hard drive, or a USB stick, or a memory card. What exactly is the difference between a hard drive and a disk or a cart in your eyes? You said it yourself it's a type of medium. It almost sounds like your argument for not investing in DLC is that sometime in the near future none of the 55 million Xbox 360 are going to work. All of the USB drives the DLC is currently on will fail. All of the current firmware upgrades needed to run pirated 360 games will vanish, and no PC in the future will be able to run a 360 emulator. I can't argue with you if that's what you believe. You're right, it's not worth the $5-$15 to play a game if that's what you believe and that's what keeping you from supporting DLC. I think you're your wrong, looking back it seem implausible but who knows. I'm still not going to worry about it. I don't mind paying for something and not having anything physical in return 20 years from now. Do it all the time.

[onlysublime]

how does your argument make sense? the 2600 is obsolete. the SNES is obsolete. and yet people still play them. I'm sure there will be 360s out there somewhere for someone to play. and who cares if you can't run your DLC on the next console. you can't run your 2600 cartridges anymore unless you have a 2600 or a flashback console.

you have a hoarder mentality that doesn't fit in the modern world. just like you probably record every episode out there even though you can get things illegally via filesharing sites and torrents or legally via things like Netflix.

[Atariboy]

I'm certainly concerned about my DLC. I'm not here just until the next generation arrives, like apparantly some of you are. That's why I'm at AtariAge, for starters. I fully intend to enjoy this console generation until the day I'm incapable of doing so.

So no matter what analogies people want to make up, it's certainly a negative for myself and quite a few others. I don't like the thought of losing my downloads someday due to a hardware failure after manufacturer support has ended. There's nothing wrong with feeling that way.

So just because someone feels secure with it by doing comparisons with attending movie theaters and the like, which is a fair enough way to view things I suppose, it still doesn't mean we all have to feel that way. I'd like to play my SNK Neo Geo Minis not only today, but 20 years down the road if I'm still around.

I don't see the harm in that. I'm not a hoarder and I'm not paranoid. But I also don't like that I won't be able to retrieve this stuff someday in the future (And in some cases on the PS3 and quite possibly on next generation consoles, the minute the server shuts down, your content is dead). I'd like to be able to play my downloads as long as I want to, just like my physical media.

Edited by Atariboy, Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:00 PM.

[TheGameCollector]

Pixelboy, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:10 PM, said:

moycon, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:43 AM, said:

But how many copies of the games will gamers have by them? A million copies? More? If there are no other options at that time would you mind playing the game hacked? If not, you have no argument.

I'm not sure I follow. You're talking about a DLG downloaded a million times? If yes, onto what medium? I'm talking about games that were specifically designed for the XBLA, or Wiiware, etc. Once the 360/PS3/Wii will have been replaced by the next generation of consoles, on what medium will I play the DLG? I'd say there's less than a 50/50 chance that today's DLGs will run on the next-gen consoles. And as the years go by, it will be increasingly difficult to find a working 360/PS3/Wii that contains the DLGs I want to play.

Quote

Unless you need an official re-issue to play a game you know perfectly well the data will be backed up and easily accessed from any device that has an internet connection. I just don't see a problem here. Also I understand there is nothing wrong with buying something and holding on to it. Maybe hoarding was a bad word to use...call it collecting if you wish. As long as you don't associate these DLC games with whatever you call it, you'll be fine. Again you don't download a game to hoard it or collect it. You download to play it.

I like to own what I pay for. Taking away a product I paid for against my will is not my idea of good business practice. But that's just my opinion.

An emulator for PC of course. What else would you emulate on? If people can make an emulator for any other console, they can make one where you can take extracted WAD files or whatever other kinds of files from a game system's hard drive and back it up to PC.

Edited by TheGameCollector, Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:15 PM.

[moycon]

Atariboy, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:59 PM, said:

I don't see the harm in that. I'm not a hoarder

I agree hoarder was not a proper word to use.

Collector.

A person shouldn't view a DLC product as a collectors item and leave it at that. If adding to a collection is important to you, obviously you simply ignore DLC. It's not for you. To those who are claiming this is the beginning of the end for gaming, get a hold of yourselves. Look in the mirror, slap yourself in the face and use common sense. There was a time many,many years ago when TV wasn't around. You had radio. All you could do was listen to a show, you couldn't actually see the show. Then television came around and became common place in peoples homes and you know at that time, people said it was the end of radio. Look in the mirror again...that's you. You are that person that preached how radio was a goner. Fact is you can still listen to radio to this very day, decades and decades and decades later. Before you die...you will still be able to listen to radio just like you will still be able to go buy a collectors edition of Elder Scrolls X. Atariboy hit the nail on the head when he mentioned paranoia. That's the way I see it. You think DLC is evil, and is going to cause some great video game crash and all games going forward that are DLC won't be able to be played in the near future. It's simple paranoia. There isn't a single shred of evidence to back up that way of thinking being true, and plenty to suggest that it is in fact not true.

[Atariboy]

I mistakingly referenced (as an example of downloads I'd hate to lose access to in the future) the PSP Minis' downloads from SNK as being NeoGeo releases. It should read as pre NeoGeo.

moycon, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:51 PM, said:

Atariboy, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:59 PM, said:

I don't see the harm in that. I'm not a hoarder

I agree hoarder was not a proper word to use.

Collector..

I'm not even a collector. I'm a gamer and my physical and downloadable games basically constitute my library of games to play (Heck, I keep my PSOne games in a cd binder, that's just how little of a collector I am). And there are too many compelling games available only as downloads to ignore, so they get purchased even though I'm well aware of the limitations associated with that distribution method.

It still doesn't mean I'm going to like it or that I'm not going to whine about it on occasion. I just grudgingly accept the limitations associated with DLC because I'd still rather have temporary access to this stuff rather than no access at all.

Edited by Atariboy, Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:31 PM.

[moycon]

Atariboy, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:27 PM, said:

I'm not even a collector.

It still doesn't mean I'm going to like it or that I'm not going to whine about it on occasion.

Ok but what exactly are you whining about then? You've seen that data even from the 1970's is easily accessible now decades later. So it can't be you're whining that the data will disappear I'm guessing. Is it that you don't like one medium for storing data over the other? You prefer to buy your data on a 10 cent plastic disk as opposed to storing it on a some other type of storage option (HDD, USB drive etc...)? If you couldn't care less about the collectible of the product. I don't understand the whining I guess.

As someone who has around 1,000 mostly worthless VHS tapes in 8 or 9 HUGE boxes in my garage that were bought for a considerable sum and used to take up an entire walk in closet at my old house. I for one am not whining about this digital distribution and storage of media these days! LOL

[Atariboy]

moycon, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:59 PM, said:

Atariboy, on Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:27 PM, said:

I'm not even a collector.

It still doesn't mean I'm going to like it or that I'm not going to whine about it on occasion.

Ok but what exactly are you whining about then? You've seen that data even from the 1970's is easily accessible now decades later.

You're forgetting about a little something called Digital Rights Management. How do you propose that I load a XBLA game on to my 360 after the servers are shut down? To the best of my knowledge, the system hasn't been hacked enough to do such a thing (Although I believe playing backup disc is possible). That situation isn't just going to magically rectify itself the day the servers are shut down.

The data surviving isn't the problem (I've even been able to access the data thanks to a utility to fix a patching issue I was having with Race Driver Grid, so archiving this material is hardly a problem). But being able to actually easily use that data is another thing entirely. Even on the Xbox, where the situation is just about the best we could hope for in this console age, you still have to softmod the system and expend a good bit of effort into the whole thing to start being able to load patches, expansions, and XBLA games on to it. I really doubt the modding scene will ever advance the situation anywhere that far on the Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 (Although I'd love to be proven wrong or already be wrong).

Was only in the last few months when a friend volunteered to do it for me that I even was able to get some copy protected VHS tapes using Macrovision transferred to DVD. The issue being discussed here is many magnitutes higher in difficulty and annoyance than even that fairly simple task.

It's a major problem for the gamer that wants to keep enjoying their DLC well past the shut off date of the servers.

Edited by Atariboy, Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:54 PM.

[Austin]

So, how 'bout that DOOM? Great game!! Lots of fun times with it myself.. Maybe I should play it again.. erm, um.... yeeeaaah....

*quietly steps away*

[Atariboy]

If you want to steer this back towards Doom, when this thread first popped up, I thought about the collector's edition of Doom 3 and the standalone console release of the expansion pack. Are the versions of Doom I/II included on those two Xbox releases able to do system link?

Edited by Atariboy, Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:48 PM.

[Austin]

That's a good question. I could bust it out later and check. Kind of related (but not at the same time), Quake Arena for XBLA can be system linked. I thought that was kind of cool, anyway--I was unaware that modern games were still doing that.

Edited by Austin, Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:53 PM.