199 replies to this topic

[Atarifever]

PacManPlus, on Sat May 12, 2012 5:57 PM, said:

Hey Shawn, not a bad idea - I'll do the game first, and if I can fit it, I'll make it autodetect if the XM is present (like the Pac-Man 320 / Ms. Pac-Man 320 games). Only if I can fit it, though.

Okay, I don't know what side of this XM thing I will end up coming down on. I figure I'll just throw my two cents in as an example. $100 is A LOT of money for me to spend on anything, ever. The XM thing has kind of scared me from the start, because it is entirely possible I will never, ever be able to justify the purchase, and the 7800 is my favorite system and my favorite homebrew community to buy from. So I've been a little worried the homebrew makers would be lured in with the fancy new hardware (as developers of any type of game have a tendency to do because it is extra challenge, extra fun, and allows for new, cool stuff), and I'd end up with no new games to buy.


However, I also really want the XM. If for no other reason, the HS functionality justifies it for me. So in the end, I'd love to get the add on, and once I get it, I'd sure like it to be used by the homebrew community to help me justify my purchase. However, I'm not even sure if I still can buy the XM, I can't afford it right now anyway, and if I don't soon get one, I'm afraid there won't ever be anymore, and I'll miss the chance to ever get one.

So I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. Seeing this, a new platformer for 7800, that may use it makes me worried I'll miss out on one of the best games for the system because of the add on. On the other hand, I'd hate to see Bob releasing a game he wasn't content with just because $100 is a lot of money to me. That'd be terribly unfair, and it'd be like me telling an artist to not take up painting because I can't afford to buy frames.

I'll just say this: If there is an "economy" version available, I don't care if it has no soundtrack at all. If the game is in there, and the sound is gone, and the sprites and colours or backgrounds or whatever look less good, that's fine too. And if such a thing is made, because of the extra work required to provide it, sans XM, I think it is fair for it to cost more, even if it is much more limited.

And on a broader level regarding the stock vs. add on argument, I don't think it matters if a game is made for the XM or stock hardware. That's still a 7800 game either way. The 7800 is not a dead system anymore, as the number of games released for it each year proves that. Using a new add on for 7800, to me anyway, is no different than the 360 using Kinect. There's nothing sacred about the stock hardware. Time didn't stop for the 7800 in 1991, and I personally think that's a good thing. New games, new controllers, bug fixes for old games, online strategy guides, online High Score contests, programmers groups, etc. To me that looks like a living system, so new hardware is just part of the deal.

Edited by Atarifever, Sun May 13, 2012 7:52 AM.

[Nuclear Pacman]

Very cool, I would buy this game. We just need our XMs wink wink nudge nudge

[PacManPlus]

rorysl, on Sun May 13, 2012 5:49 AM, said:

Hey all, this is probably a question for the Xport forum but since it specifically refers to this bin, I'll ask it here -- I'm attempting to run these demos on my Xbox using the X-port Atari 7800x emulator. When I load the bin it says: No Header/DB Entry. Rom needs to be manually configured. When I enter the manual configuration menu my options are:

Palette: MESS-NTSC
Region: NTSC
Cartridge Type - Normal Cart
Pokey - No
Configure Controllers

Under Palette my options:
1)MESS-NTSC
2)MESS-PAL
3)New Stella NTSC
4)Old Stella NTSC
5)Z26 NTSC

And under Cartridge Type:
1)Normal Cart
2)Supercart
3)Supercart with additional ROM at $4000 (Large)
4)Supercart with additional RAM at $4000
5)Supercart no additional RAM/ROM

Any help would be greatly appreciated and would save me trying all the different combos!

Thanks!

As far as the Palette, I would start with '1' but try '2', '3', and '4' to try and get the colors as close as possible to the video I posted. (Especially the 'Forest' level)
Cartridge type is '3'.

Hope this helps.
Bob

[GroovyBee]

Atarifever, on Sun May 13, 2012 7:48 AM, said:

However, I'm not even sure if I still can buy the XM, I can't afford it right now anyway, and if I don't soon get one, I'm afraid there won't ever be anymore, and I'll miss the chance to ever get one.

There are currently 15 units left at the Legacy Engineer store here :-

http://www.legacyeng...com/storefront/

I wouldn't worry about not getting an XM in the first wave or even being gouged on ebay for one because Curt has said in the past that as long as people want them then they'll be made.

[Atarifever]

GroovyBee, on Sun May 13, 2012 8:24 AM, said:

Atarifever, on Sun May 13, 2012 7:48 AM, said:

However, I'm not even sure if I still can buy the XM, I can't afford it right now anyway, and if I don't soon get one, I'm afraid there won't ever be anymore, and I'll miss the chance to ever get one.

There are currently 15 units left at the Legacy Engineer store here :-

http://www.legacyeng...com/storefront/

I wouldn't worry about not getting an XM in the first wave or even being gouged on ebay for one because Curt has said in the past that as long as people want them then they'll be made.

Thanks for the information!

My best bet on this is Christmas, so I hope there are some available around then. If my wife weren't so used to me by now, I'd probably think it unlikely she'd understand why I were asking for a $100 add-on to a system that stopped production 21 years ago. However, after this many years, I know she'll probably just say "does it come with a game or will I be ordering one of those as well?" She will be ordering one of those as well.

[DracIsBack]

fernando marrin, on Sat May 12, 2012 4:12 PM, said:

Is the 7800 capable of a wonderboy/adenture island quality game?

I am playing this demo on my stock 7800 as we speak! just as I played SCRAPYARD DOG on my stock 7800 yesterday.


Bob - this game kicks butt!!!!! :-)

[PacManPlus]

Hi Guys:
Thank you so much for the wonderful compliments. They are truly appreciated, and make me want to continue doing these things.

Originally, I was not going to say anything about this game until the CGExpo in August (which I will still try and finish the game for). I decided to post it because of a few reasons: a) I was afraid after posting the 'mock ups' that someone else might take it up and start it, and b) I was just so excited about it and I have a VERY hard time keeping something in when I'm happy about what I'm doing.

I'm concerned now, that this may have contributed to some controversy about the XM. I am now thinking maybe I should not have done this as I was not expecting this kind of debate about it.

When thinking about the XM, please keep in mind of this quote (as he explained it the best):

Trebor, on Sat May 12, 2012 6:42 PM, said:

Folks, I believe part of the main focus and the advantage of the XM is being missed here. If the game was made to require the XM only - utilizing the extra memory as well as the Pokey Sound - could it be possibly be done without the system - sure.

You would have to pay for the extra memory on cart, the pokey chip, extra assembly time, etc. You buy the XM once, and all that extra cost and time is more than made up after a few games.
2-3 homebrew efforts, say costing ~$40-60 bucks a piece without the XM, due to having purchased and installed extra memory chips and Pokey sound chip on the cart (Like some NES games) would either pay for or more than pay for the XM.

Short-term/immediate thinking gets you that homebrew taking more time, effort, and money without the XM. Long-term sees more homebrews being developed taking less time, effort and money with the XM.

Again, yes the 7800 can have this - and whatever future titles running with a stock system - just throw all the extra hardware on the cart - Like the NES did for many games.
Or save a heck of a lot of resources and have one piece of hardware that needs to be bought and assembled once which a standard cart can feed through.

Being that each cart can have extra memory or a Pokey, all the XM is doing is making it easier for us to include that setup and not have to put this extra hardware in EVERY CART. Doesn't it make sense to do it once instead of spending the extra hardware for every game that comes out? (I wish Atari and GCC had done it that way from the beginning).
GroovyBee, Curt and Marty have worked VERY hard on this for a long time. Yes it took longer than expected, but everyone has to remember that they want it PERFECT before it goes out.

BTW, if I understand correctly they started with specs for a unit that was supposed to have been released back when the 7800 was originally out. So this *WAS POSSIBLE* back then ( not sure about the Yamaha though - but that's an added bonus )

I am going to finish this game how I originally intended. If there is a way once I am finished, I will include TIA sounds - but this was intended as an XM game and I am going to go forward as such.


Also, I have to point out that jwierer did a LOT of hard work on the level editor (as always) and the levels would have taken FOREVER without it.

Thanks, guys
Bob

[GroovyBee]

Atarifever, on Sun May 13, 2012 8:39 AM, said:

Thanks for the information!

No worries.

Quote

My best bet on this is Christmas, so I hope there are some available around then. If my wife weren't so used to me by now, I'd probably think it unlikely she'd understand why I were asking for a $100 add-on to a system that stopped production 21 years ago. However, after this many years, I know she'll probably just say "does it come with a game or will I be ordering one of those as well?" She will be ordering one of those as well.

Unfortunately its impossible to guarantee that you'll be able to pick up XM games for a reasonable price if you miss out on their pre-orders. Contrary to what the naysayers would have you believe I think that developers will sell more copies of XM enhanced/mandatory titles.

[AtariNerd]

It's probably more than a fortunate coincidence that the majority of the preselected audience, willing to put $25 or so down for one of Bob's homebrews, rather than just play through emulation, is also the same audience that sees the value of the XM. There might be some who buy a one-off on occassion as finances permit or a certain game fits their fancy, but Bob also has a very loyal following as he is one of th few that actively produces homebrews for the system (one that has a relatively small library, with many holes.), but also rather cool games; with modern resources and an extended tool and knowledge base, often with more care and expertease than those put out in the systems production life.

It's great that he is willing to accomadate both camps: those who bolster the XM, for all of the benifits and resource saving ennumerated many times over, and those who are purists.
The extra effort and cost to hand-produce carts with the extra hardware has generally been the downside to including the extras, like better sound, high score... features that were considered standard issue at the conceptual stage, were meant to be, but were rarely included in production carts. It's ony through the efforts of developers/programmers like Bob, Curt, Groovey and a host of others, that we are finally getting back what seems to have been a bit of an oversight.

Huzzah and well-met the challenge!

(Oh, and put me down for a copy.)

[Trebor]

PacManPlus, on Sun May 13, 2012 8:48 AM, said:

I am going to finish this game how I originally intended. If there is a way once I am finished, I will include TIA sounds - but this was intended as an XM game and I am going to go forward as such.


Also, I have to point out that jwierer did a LOT of hard work on the level editor (as always) and the levels would have taken FOREVER without it.

Awesome on both accounts.

jwierer, RED, Bob...Amazing and fantastic work - Thank you for sharing this with the community.

Edited by Trebor, Sun May 13, 2012 11:02 AM.

[Jinks]

Oh I forgot to mention I'll take one for sure as well.
Games like these are the reason why many of us put in for a XM.

[rorysl]

PacManPlus, on Sun May 13, 2012 7:55 AM, said:

As far as the Palette, I would start with '1' but try '2', '3', and '4' to try and get the colors as close as possible to the video I posted. (Especially the 'Forest' level)
Cartridge type is '3'.

Hope this helps.
Bob

Got it -- I was attempting to load the .bin's in A7800x not the .A78's, now it's working good! Fantastic work!

[CPUWIZ]

GroovyBee, on Sun May 13, 2012 8:24 AM, said:

I wouldn't worry about not getting an XM in the first wave

Is that the 2015 wave?

[GroovyBee]

CPUWIZ, on Sun May 13, 2012 3:24 PM, said:

Is that the 2015 wave?

Nope! That's just when yours will arrive .

[CPUWIZ]

GroovyBee, on Sun May 13, 2012 4:01 PM, said:

CPUWIZ, on Sun May 13, 2012 3:24 PM, said:

Is that the 2015 wave?

Nope! That's just when yours will arrive .

Cool, thanks.

[GroovyBee]

CPUWIZ, on Sun May 13, 2012 4:21 PM, said:

GroovyBee, on Sun May 13, 2012 4:01 PM, said:

CPUWIZ, on Sun May 13, 2012 3:24 PM, said:

Is that the 2015 wave?

Nope! That's just when yours will arrive .

Cool, thanks.

Any time!

[Underball]

Just going by what we've seen publicly so far, this is the first upcoming XM title that actually looks like it's actually taking advantage of the XM, and not something that could feasibly have been done on the stock 7800. Looks Fantastic.

[GroovyBee]

Underball, on Mon May 14, 2012 9:43 AM, said:

Just going by what we've seen publicly so far, this is the first upcoming XM title that actually looks like it's actually taking advantage of the XM, and not something that could feasibly have been done on the stock 7800. Looks Fantastic.

I guess all the people who played XM mandatory games, saw XM tech demos and upcoming and unannounced games at Replay UK, eJagFest and AC2012 must have imagined it?

<Cue Bobby Ewing shower scene.....>

[PacManPlus]

GB, to be fair, those were all in the UK / Germany / France (from what I understand), and the videos posted for us here in the States didn't show any more than 2-3 seconds tops of actual gameplay so it's hard to have seen that.

[GroovyBee]

PacManPlus, on Mon May 14, 2012 12:23 PM, said:

GB, to be fair, those were all in the UK (from what I understand), and the videos posted for us here in the States didn't show any more than 2-3 seconds tops of actual gameplay so it's hard to have seen that.

Replay UK was in the UK, eJagFest in Germany and AC2012 was in France so the XM has most definitely been on tour. Easily more than 10 AA members have seen the XM games and demos in person.

[Shawn Sr.]

GroovyBee, on Mon May 14, 2012 12:06 PM, said:

Underball, on Mon May 14, 2012 9:43 AM, said:

Just going by what we've seen publicly so far, this is the first upcoming XM title that actually looks like it's actually taking advantage of the XM, and not something that could feasibly have been done on the stock 7800. Looks Fantastic.

I guess all the people who played XM mandatory games, saw XM tech demos and upcoming and unannounced games at Replay UK, eJagFest and AC2012 must have imagined it?

<Cue Bobby Ewing shower scene.....>

To be totally transparent here Mark you must admit you have done alot of talking but not alot of showing of any of your games that have not come out for one reason or another. The only 2 releases you have to date are Wasp! and Worm! everything else is talk and 2 second video clips. Maybe a handful of people who played them at a couple get togethers across the pond not across the internet. If you want to go head to head with what Bob has shown and shared as that seems to be the ticket here he's got you beat 10 fold be it stock or XM 7800 games. So in closing, yes, even if you do have a whole line up of games ready to come out, Bob has shown alot more than you in regards to XM and stock games. Bob's work is all over the internet, magazines, emulators and in peoples 7800 machines across the world and not just by his hand but by all the people who enjoy his work that he shares.

[Atarifever]

And we will never, ever talk of this again. Sorry I contributed anything to this, but I just saw something here. Let me check again. Yup, there it is. In this very thread we are starting to talk like Jag fans!

The XM is great and we should all buy it. Not using the XM is great and no one should buy it. It's all fantastic either way, and homebrew programmers rock forever. Please, please not lets turn into Jag fans guys. I don't want to have 90% of every post be about hardware and homebrew prices. Maybe they're not like that now, but I stopped visiting their forums a long time ago because everything was bickering over stuff like this. (Just checked their forum, and I can't tell if this is still true or not). In any case, we're 7800 fans. We're better than that.

Edited by Atarifever, Mon May 14, 2012 12:31 PM.

[Shawn Sr.]

Atarifever, on Mon May 14, 2012 12:29 PM, said:

In any case, we're 7800 fans. We're better than that.

I see alot of friends and one Groovy Bee.

[GroovyBee]

Shawn Sr., on Mon May 14, 2012 12:28 PM, said:

The only 2 releases you have to date are Wasp! and Worm! everything else is talk and 2 second video clips. Maybe a handful of people who played them at a couple get togethers across the pond not across the internet.

Replay UK were hoping for around 5000 people through the doors last year and I believe they got pretty close to that number. Admittedly not all the people who attended Replay are into homebrews but the small hall we were in had a ton of traffic so I'd call that one more than a "get together" wouldn't you? Both eJagFest and AC2012 had about 50-70 attendees from around Europe. You can't knock people willing to travel 100s of miles across several countries to meet old and new friends and to see what is going on in and around the retro scenes.

Quote

If you want to go head to head with what Bob has shown and shared as that seems to be the ticket here he's got you beat 10 fold be it stock or XM 7800 games. So in closing, yes, even if you do have a whole line up of games ready to come out, Bob has shown alot more than you in regards to XM and stock games. Bob's work is all over the internet, magazines, emulators and in peoples 7800 machines across the world and not just by his hand but by all the people who enjoy his work that he shares.

I'm not interested in going head to head with anybody. Developers keeping the 7800 scene alive with new games or hardware are dedicated and talented individuals that's for sure.

[Trebor]

Hey GroovyBee,

Personally, I have no grudge or hate for anyone here. I appreciate all that is done for the community and the efforts of everyone involved. However, in my very humble opinion, and perhaps it is just bad interpretation by me, but in a couple of instances now, there seems to be a passive aggressive - and maybe not so passive - negative connotation from you respecting Bob's work or compliments paid to him, or perhaps 'showing him up', if I am explaining it correctly. From the Rip-Off thread it was evident and now here.

You're not obliged to do so, but it just comes across as odd to me that your contributions to threads concerning games Bob has worked on is either a criticizing or correcting manner and no compliments paid.

Perhaps its oversight and you don’t even realize you are doing it. But now it is just too appears too strikingly in your face 'stealing of thunder' so to speak. Again, just interpretation be me, and perhaps others.

Groovy, I appreciate all the work you do for the community and a huge thank you for the work being done on the XM and I genuinely look forward to the games you are working on; however, perhaps you can look back at your posts respecting stuff Bob is working on and see how it can rub people the wrong way.

The whole thing is probably just a misunderstanding, and thanks to all regarding working together for the community and the 7800.

Edited by Trebor, Mon May 14, 2012 1:09 PM.