199 replies to this topic

[GroovyBee]

FireStar, on Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:55 PM, said:

On a side note, there was also a port of Wonder Boy to the SG-1000, which was weaker than the SMS, though I'm not sure how it compares to the 7800

The 7800 could do a much more colourful version than that. It wouldn't have the sprite flicker either. However you'd probably have to account for the change in horizontal resolution 160 (on the 7800) vs 256.

[Trip_Cannon]

Wonderboy in Monster Land!!

[PAC-MAN-RED]

Trip_Cannon, on Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:44 AM, said:

Wonderboy in Monster Land!!

This is my personal favorite arcade game of all time and I used to dream of owning the arcade machine. Let's see how far I get with the first Wonder Boy stuff, but this one is on my list.

[Phredreeke]

Are you just doing graphics or are you going to program it as well?

[Trip_Cannon]

PAC-MAN-RED, on Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:31 AM, said:

Trip_Cannon, on Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:44 AM, said:

Wonderboy in Monster Land!!

This is my personal favorite arcade game of all time and I used to dream of owning the arcade machine. Let's see how far I get with the first Wonder Boy stuff, but this one is on my list.

Such a great game! Truly tops of its kind... Just now tried to look it up on klov.com but couldn't find it.. wonder what the deal is there?

[PAC-MAN-RED]

Phredreeke, on Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:42 AM, said:

Are you just doing graphics or are you going to program it as well?

My programming skills are sadly lacking. And since I can't wrap my head around Assembly or even C++, I've given up on it and have decided to concentrate on graphics and sprites. See my 2600 thread over > here <

Illya

[PAC-MAN-RED]

UPDATE

Added 13 more sprites to the Wonder Boy pile - including some enemies this time 'round:



Illya

[PAC-MAN-RED]

UPDATE

Polished off 18 more sprites; This nearly completes every sprite needed to create a Level 1 Demo. Missing are a few more Wonder Boy animation sprites, Lives, Items carried, Life Bar, Player & Highscore font and Backgrounds.



Illya

[spiffyone]

PAC-MAN-RED, on Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:20 PM, said:

Sprite conversion is quite possible I'd say:

WonderBoy Comparison.PNG

illya

That's a great effort, and matches quite well with the 7800 capabilities, but...I don't think an edited sprite rip of that sort is "proper" for this sort of potential project.

In fact, I'd go so far as to state that having a "straight port" of Wonder Boy would be the wrong way to go about things.

As the topic creator alluded, Wonder Boy was also on NES...as Adventure Island. The reason for the change is pretty well known to Wonder Boy fans (Adventure Island fans seem to not know about it much, for some reason, however): while Wonder Boy was programmed by Westone, and the developer owns the game engine, etc., Sega, the publisher, actually owns the IP itself, including the characters and all related artwork, etc. Westone was able to license the engine, and the gameplay therein, to other developers/publishers, and one of the games that came about that licensing was Hudson's Adventure Island.

I am of the opinion that when thinking of "new" games for retro systems, we have to keep in mind what was going on in the industry at the time the systems in question were "new" themselves (or originally on market during their actual product lifespans). In this case, I don't think Atari 7800 could have gotten a "straight port" of Wonder Boy unless they secured the license from both Westone and Sega (not likely, unless they had secured those rights prior to Sega entering the hardware market in the US, ala the rights Atari had over home ports of the original Mario Bros.), or had the game published by Sega (again, not likely, as Sega had a competing platform)for the game engine and gameplay, with everything else changed (artwork, characters).

So the only way the game would have been on 7800 would've been in modified form, ala the NES's Adventure Island. Therefore, the artwork would have to be "all new", with only the gameplay being the same (or highly similar).

Now...what character would replace Tom-Tom (the original Wonder Boy), and Master Higgins (the star of Adventure Island)?

IMHO, look no further than:

Bentley Bear (of Crystal Castles, and Atari Karts, "fame"):



Now...for a title....

Sega's Master System had Wonder (Boy), Nintendo's Entertainment System had Adventure (Island)...so maybe Atari's Pro System can have Bentley Bear on a Quest or going through a Calamity.

Bentley Bear in...

Crystal Quest
or
Crystal Calamity

I kinda like Crystal Calamity for this one. Crystal Quest can be used for, I dunno...an action/adventure like a reworked of Monster Land (or Dragon's Trap) starring Bentley, much like the later Wonder Boy games became more than "just" platformers (and, ironically, so did the Adventure Island games as they moved onto Super Nintendo - Super Adventure Island 2 has more in common with Metroid and Zelda than it does Mario or the "original" Adventure Island game).

[DracIsBack]

You spent way too much time dissecting that SpiffyOne.

[Metal Ghost]

I for one like the thought process that went into that spiffy....I like it.

[PAC-MAN-RED]

Spiffy has such a good idea that it should really be fleshed out with a background story, etc. It really needs it's own thread to gain the attention it deserves, and so that others can contribute and assist in it's development.

Illya

[spiffyone]

DracIsBack, on Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:48 PM, said:

You spent way too much time dissecting that SpiffyOne.

You mean the length of time it took to write it or the length of the post itself?

I do get longwinded, I admit. But it didn't take too long to write that, I don't think.

Regardless, if I can contribute in any way to a new 7800 development, I'm game.

[DracIsBack]

spiffyone, on Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:21 PM, said:

You mean the length of time it took to write it or the length of the post itself?

I was being a bit of a smartalec. I actually hadn't thought of the things you raised and was surprised at the detail on it. I just viewed this as a little 'let's see if it could be done' thread that took a very different direction.

[Bentley Bear!]

spiffyone, on Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:31 PM, said:

That's a great effort, and matches quite well with the 7800 capabilities, but...I don't think an edited sprite rip of that sort is "proper" for this sort of potential project.

In fact, I'd go so far as to state that having a "straight port" of Wonder Boy would be the wrong way to go about things.

As the topic creator alluded, Wonder Boy was also on NES...as Adventure Island. The reason for the change is pretty well known to Wonder Boy fans (Adventure Island fans seem to not know about it much, for some reason, however): while Wonder Boy was programmed by Westone, and the developer owns the game engine, etc., Sega, the publisher, actually owns the IP itself, including the characters and all related artwork, etc. Westone was able to license the engine, and the gameplay therein, to other developers/publishers, and one of the games that came about that licensing was Hudson's Adventure Island.

I am of the opinion that when thinking of "new" games for retro systems, we have to keep in mind what was going on in the industry at the time the systems in question were "new" themselves (or originally on market during their actual product lifespans). In this case, I don't think Atari 7800 could have gotten a "straight port" of Wonder Boy unless they secured the license from both Westone and Sega (not likely, unless they had secured those rights prior to Sega entering the hardware market in the US, ala the rights Atari had over home ports of the original Mario Bros.), or had the game published by Sega (again, not likely, as Sega had a competing platform)for the game engine and gameplay, with everything else changed (artwork, characters).

So the only way the game would have been on 7800 would've been in modified form, ala the NES's Adventure Island. Therefore, the artwork would have to be "all new", with only the gameplay being the same (or highly similar).

Now...what character would replace Tom-Tom (the original Wonder Boy), and Master Higgins (the star of Adventure Island)?

IMHO, look no further than:

Bentley Bear (of Crystal Castles, and Atari Karts, "fame"):



Now...for a title....

Sega's Master System had Wonder (Boy), Nintendo's Entertainment System had Adventure (Island)...so maybe Atari's Pro System can have Bentley Bear on a Quest or going through a Calamity.

Bentley Bear in...

Crystal Quest
or
Crystal Calamity

I kinda like Crystal Calamity for this one. Crystal Quest can be used for, I dunno...an action/adventure like a reworked of Monster Land (or Dragon's Trap) starring Bentley, much like the later Wonder Boy games became more than "just" platformers (and, ironically, so did the Adventure Island games as they moved onto Super Nintendo - Super Adventure Island 2 has more in common with Metroid and Zelda than it does Mario or the "original" Adventure Island game).

DUDE. Awesomesauce.

I've always thought Bentley would have been a great icon for Atari, like Mario for Nintendo and Sonic for Sega... A game like this would finally give him some justice due, I thought Crystal Castles deserved a good sequel or at least Bentley in some other game format perhaps, side-scrolling platformer would be the most approachable as it's what Mario and Sonic started out on.

A GENIEYOUZ IZ YOUZ

[Metal Ghost]

I'm with you on this Bentley Bear. I think that had it not been for the crash, a natural progression for Atari would have been to bring some of their arcade characters out in different genre's of games, very much in the same way that Mario went from Donkey Kong, to Mario Bros., to Super Mario Bros.

The two that come to mind would be Bentley Bear and Major Havoc.

Anyway, getting away from the Wonderboy topic though

[Nuclear Pacman]

What would Bentley Bear's weapon be? Would he collect gems, or would he throw them? A Bentley Bear platformer is certainly intriguing. We know at least some of the enemies could be the monsters from Crystal Castles. What would make sense for him the most? Would the level design be based on the Crystal Castles 'universe', or would there simply be a few CC themed levels?

[Bentley Bear!]

Bentley's weapon of choice? His magic chapeau of course! Gems could be used for either points, a secondary weapon, some sort of cumulative bonus... Who knows really, that would all be up to the game designer(s) methinks. Some new additions like perhaps a magic wand or staff would work too.

Again, to get back on topic, while this is not to take away from Wonderboy and I think it would be a awesome port for the 7800... But a whole new 7800 game based off Bentley Bear/Crystal Castles would be most awesome and definitely worth the effort IMHO. In the end, I'd love to see both of these ideas take off!

Edited by Bentley Bear!, Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:16 PM.

[spiffyone]

Nuclear Pacman, on Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:55 PM, said:

What would Bentley Bear's weapon be? Would he collect gems, or would he throw them? A Bentley Bear platformer is certainly intriguing. We know at least some of the enemies could be the monsters from Crystal Castles. What would make sense for him the most? Would the level design be based on the Crystal Castles 'universe', or would there simply be a few CC themed levels?

Well, the idea was to take out the Wonder Boy IP from Wonder Boy the game, similar to how Hudson did it when making Adventure Island. From what I had remembered when I thought the Bentley thing up, everything else was pretty much kept intact from the transition from Wonder Boy to Adventure Island - only the characters were changed (I kind of got this a bit wrong, btw, which I'll get to later). So, I figured his weapons would be the same as those used in Wonder Boy and Adventure Island: stone axes.

But the more I think about it, the less "sense" this makes. Why would a bear throw stone axes? Then again, does it make much sense for a bear wearing clothes to collect gems in order to stop the plot of an evil witch (the original "plot" of Crystal Castles? That said , I like the idea of wands instead of a stone axe, to better "fit" the character. It made absolute sense for Tom-Tom, a cave boy, and Master Higgins, who was in the tropics, to throw a stone axe - stone axes "fit" those thematic elements in Wonder Boy and Adventure Island; wands "fit" Bentley's "world" better than stone axes. Such a change would fit even more since later on you could "power up" the wand to throw fireballs (if I recall, in Adventure Island, you could power up the axe to a fireball weapon).

As for gems, it makes the most "sense" for him to collect them, as he did in Crystal Castles. In terms of how this would fit the Wonder Boy game engine, I guess they'd replace the fruits and veggies. Different colored gems replace the different types of fruit (bananas, apples, etc.).

Going back to the changes between Wonder Boy and Adventure Island: things were changed quite a bit. Some enemy sprites were completely changed to different creatures all together. Snakes and snails remained snakes and snails, but their coloring, and "look" were quite a bit different, and in Adventure Island the snakes spit fireballs. Also, the bees/wasps in Wonder Boy were replaced with birds (crows?) in Adventure Island. Of course, this goes right back to the idea of having Crystal Castle enemies in place of those used in Wonder Boy, where possible. Where it isn't possible, new enemies could be created by modifying the original Wonder Boy sprites a bit to better fit the Crystal Castles IP.

As for level design:

The levels themselves would be the same as those used in Wonder Boy, obviously, as this would be a port of Wonder Boy with the Crystal Castles IP grafted on. Now, while the design of the levels wouldn't change, the art design would. Just like the character sprites themselves, the "look" of levels can change. So, yeah...Crystal Castle themed level art (or art that "fits" that IP more) rather than a change in actual level design.

Take the opening of Level 2 in both Wonder Boy and Adventure Island:



I don't think having a palm tree would make "sense" with the Crystal Castles IP. Forests, like the first level of those two games, with forest-y trees? Sure. Tropical trees? Not with Bentley. So maybe such instances of the level sprites looking too "tropical" can be changed to fit the more "forest" style motif. The level design itself wouldn't change, just the art.

This would also work with one of those levels in Wonder Boy (and, iirc, Adventure Island) that take place in a desert. Modify the colors of the desert to make the sand look like snow, and we now have a snow level that fits the world of Bentley. The rest of levels/worlds in both games "fit" this Crystal Castile-ized version already, since they take place in caves, and, well, a castle. A few changes here and there (I know...more difficult than I'm stating) would make for a game that, while being the "same" as Wonder Boy, and Adventure Island in terms of gameplay and level design has it's own "look".

As for "story", both Wonder Boy and Adventure Island have stories focusing on having the protagonists girlfriend captured by an evil king (or wizard). In Wonder Boy, it was Tom-Tom's girlfriend Tanya who was kidnapped by the evil king/wizard/monster Drancon; in Adventure Island, it was Master Higgin's girlfriend Tina (called Princess Leilani in the NES manual) who was kidnapped by the evil king/wizard Quiller. Might as well not go too far from that "source" story. Crystal Castles already has an evil witch in it, Berthilda, so reuse her to take the place of Drancon/Quiller. Change Tanya/Tina to a bear (named, I dunno...Tawny, which would fit if she were actually golden brown), and boom! It works.

Maybe something like this?

CRYSTAL CALAMITY

The Calamitous Adventures of Bentley Bear

AN UNBEARABLE SITUATION

Once upon a time, Bentley Bear thwarted the witch Berthilda's evil plot to place him in permanent hibernation, defeating her and escaping her Crystal Castles. Returning to his forest home, Bentley's life went back to normal...or so he thought.

The evil witch has returned for her revenge, kidnapping Bentley's beloved girlfriend Tawny, and putting Bentley under a spell that slowly drains his life energy. To save Tawny and break the spell, Bentley must collect life gems, brave the attacks of Berthilda's cronies while traveling through dangerous forests, snowy plains, and dark caves and, finally, defeat the evil witch once and for all.

Edited by spiffyone, Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:36 PM.

[spiffyone]

Just remembered something else:

Sega also owned the rights to Wonder Boy's music. So in this hypothetical scenario of taking the engine and modifying it with the Crystal Castles/Bentley Bear IP, the music would have to be all new as well.

...honestly...I think if this were done, it should be Pokey music.

I also don't think this would need to be XM only, as stock 7800 could pull it off based on previous comments by others in this topic.

[PAC-MAN-RED]

Here's a WonderBoy Level 1 Screen Comparison / 7800 Mock-up:



And as a special bonus The entire level 1 layout for the arcade version of WonderBoy. Yay! If anyone finds any errors in this, feel free to correct them.



Illya

[GroovyBee]

Good mock but you'd have to use some programmer tricks to gain some palettes back for the enemies.

[DracIsBack]

Nice work!

[GroovyBee]

You couldn't use DLI's on the slopes. Luckily you gain some palettes back because you don't have the trees to worry about. Speaking of which you'd need to think about the tree alignment boundaries too.

[PAC-MAN-RED]

GroovyBee, on Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:24 PM, said:

Good mock but you'd have to use some programmer tricks to gain some palettes back for the enemies.

I'd imagine that some changes would probably need to take place and that a game like this wouldn't necessarily be the easiest to program, but then, where's the fun in that.

Illya