32 replies to this topic

[Defender_2600]

Bob,
sincerely thank you for your generosity.

I know that because of the imminent presentation of the 7800 Expansion Modules you are very busy with other projects, so I'm glad you found time to return to your Pac-Man Collection.

I wish to bring to your attention some final suggestions, absolutely do not want to take advantage of your willingness, but forgive me I love this game and maybe this is the last chance to further improve some features.
I promise you I will not do other requests!


The first point concerns the sprites of Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man
it is a little change to the depth of the mouth of sprites.
In some sprites I deleted a single pixel to highlight the opening of the mouth, in others sprites I have added a single pixel because the opening of the mouth seems too deep.

I looked very carefully the graphics of the sprites in a static position (when the sprite is stopped in a corner of the maze), but also I gave attention to the animation of sprites when scrolling (add some screenshots, but it is preferable to also see the scrolling, I could send you the binary but I do not know your email address ..).

I saw that you included the sprite Pac-Man a little more rounded who KevinMos3 kindly suggested, I then also used for Ms. Pac-Man the sprites a little more rounded who KevinMos3 suggested (without lipstick).

I also added a sprite of Ms. Pac-Man with "lipstick" as an alternative.
While I was making several attempts, I was very impressed with this sprite, and I hope he has a chance to please you.
The two added pixels (the lipstick) soften the shape of the mouth of Ms. Pac-Man and the sprite appears as if it had a higher resolution.
I tried the scrolling and is well compatible with other sprites without lipstick.


Here are the screenshots:



































































































Second point.

In the arcade version when starting the game Pac-Man has his mouth closed (the sprite in the shape of a circle).
You have already done this in the first version of your Pac-Man for 7800.















Last point.

If you can do it, the sprite of the lives of Pac-Man (bottom left) can be replaced by a better sprite that is already present in the game (the yellow box in the screenshot).













Is everything. Forgive me for the prolixity.


Bob thanks again,
"You have really brought a new life for our Atari 7800."


Sincerely


Marco

[PacManPlus]

Hey Marco:

Thank you for your input.
While I appreciate the suggestions, I feel that the sprites, with the dimensions I have to work with (8x12 instead of 16x16 like the arcade) best represent their arcade counterparts.
Working with 1/2 the horizontal resolution and 3/4 the vertical resolution led me to make some judgement calls when designing the sprites.

If you look at the arcade version, Pac's inside of the mouth ends farther than halfway in through the sprite. I tried to replicate this, and the examples you gave end the mouth exactly halfway through the sprite. In all actuality it should end 1/2 a pixel farther out than it does, but unfortunately I can't add that 1/2 a pixel. Please note that the surrounding box of these sprites are the resolutions that bind them.


As I had mentioned earlier with Ms. Pac's lipstick, I feel that two pixels make it 'too big' IMHO, it makes the sprite look dis-proportionate. You have to take into account that the 7800's pixels are (almost) twice as wide as they are high, so using two pixels for the lipstick is like using 4 on the arcade version.


Regarding the 'bonus lives' issue, the arcade version actually uses a different character that doesn't even exist in the normal animation of the player. I have no characters or sprites left to make another version so I used the best approximation.

Again, I appreciate the suggestions as I've always wanted this to be as close to the arcade game as possible (being a Pac-Man person myself) but I at some point I need to call this 'done'.

Thanks!
Bob

[KevinMos3]

PacManPlus, on Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:47 PM, said:

Hi Guys: Ok, here is what I did. I talked it over with tep392, and I incorporated all of the graphic changes except for 1) the 'two-pixel' lipstick for ms. pac (it didn't look right to me), and the square eyes for the 'scared' monsters (also didn't look right to me).

Thanks for taking another look at this game. I noticed that the rounded changes to Ms. Pac-Man also didn't make it into this latest version. Since you said you only left out the lipstick and square ghost eyes I thought I'd mention it in case this was just an oversight.

Marco, I really like your suggestions and am glad you made them. I love Pac-Man 320, but wasn't quite satisfied with Pac-Man Collection and didn't know why until this. I wouldn't have started tinkering if you hadn't asked for smaller dots and Bob may or may not have come back to update this game... only he knows. The other changes really come down to personal taste. It's impossible to perfectly replicate square pixels with the rectangle ones of the 7800, (or 2600 for that matter), so the challenge is finding the right "interpretation" to be happy with. This is where different people will have different tastes. For me, I played around with the sprites until I came to what I was most satisfied with. However, I think I like your addition of a pixel to reduce the depth of the mouth. I haven't decided yet. This is where input from others is really beneficial. We see each others ideas and some of them grow on us until we like them better than our own. Anyway... I really said all that to just say thanks for your input. I enjoy Pac-Man Collection in an emulator more than I did before because of it.

[Defender_2600]

PacManPlus, on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:06 AM, said:

Hey Marco:

Thank you for your input.
While I appreciate the suggestions, I feel that the sprites, with the dimensions I have to work with (8x12 instead of 16x16 like the arcade) best represent their arcade counterparts.
Working with 1/2 the horizontal resolution and 3/4 the vertical resolution led me to make some judgement calls when designing the sprites.

If you look at the arcade version, Pac's inside of the mouth ends farther than halfway in through the sprite. I tried to replicate this, and the examples you gave end the mouth exactly halfway through the sprite. In all actuality it should end 1/2 a pixel farther out than it does, but unfortunately I can't add that 1/2 a pixel. Please note that the surrounding box of these sprites are the resolutions that bind them.
Arcade Pac.png 7800 Pac.png

As I had mentioned earlier with Ms. Pac's lipstick, I feel that two pixels make it 'too big' IMHO, it makes the sprite look dis-proportionate. You have to take into account that the 7800's pixels are (almost) twice as wide as they are high, so using two pixels for the lipstick is like using 4 on the arcade version.
Arcade Ms. Pac.png 7800 Ms. Pac.png

Regarding the 'bonus lives' issue, the arcade version actually uses a different character that doesn't even exist in the normal animation of the player. I have no characters or sprites left to make another version so I used the best approximation.

Again, I appreciate the suggestions as I've always wanted this to be as close to the arcade game as possible (being a Pac-Man person myself) but I at some point I need to call this 'done'.

Thanks!
Bob

Bob,
many thanks for your answer,
I really appreciate your kindness.

I read with great interest your last post, I understand your reasons and really I have great respect for your choices.
I am passionate about designing sprites and for the sake of argument I want to explain the reasons for my choice of adding a pixel.
To simplify the description I insert three screenshots:










I used a color for each area of the mouth of Pac-Man to highlight quickly the proportions.
The measure of the width (depth) of each sector has been my guide.
The red area has a width less than the blue sector,
while the red and the green sector have the same width. I wanted to replicate these proportions.

I have not shown the animation of sprites and maybe has escaped an important concept: the maximum depth of the mouth of Pac-Man has remained unchanged.
I reduced the depth of the mouth only of the sprite in question while I have not changed the sprite after (in animation):









So the maximum depth of the mouth of Pac-Man has remained unchanged, while only becomes more gradual the opening of the mouth during the animation.
In addition, the animation has become richer, on the horizontal line that houses the new pixel we have added an additional animation frames: three instead of two.
(In the second screenshot is the sprite that I had recommended also for the 'bonus lives').

That was my point of view and I wanted to share it, but I fully endorse the words of KevinMos3: "It's impossible to perfectly replicate square pixels with the rectangle ones of the 7800 (or 2600 for that Matter), I know the challenge is finding the right "interpretation" to be happy with. This is where different people will have different tastes. ".

Bob, I love your games so I also share your choices.
I understand that at some point you need to call Pac-Man Collection "done".
I asked for an update of Pac-Man Collection because I knew that is expected to release a new edition with audio Pokey and I considered that this upcoming edition is the last chance to improve some aspects that have been omitted for lack of time.

I am really happy that you have listened to my requests and released this latest update.
I am new to this forum but it was not for you cause of prejudice.

Bob, I knew you as a great professional,
I now know you as a great person.

Sincerely

Marco

[Defender_2600]

KevinMos3, on Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:52 AM, said:

PacManPlus, on Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:47 PM, said:

Hi Guys: Ok, here is what I did. I talked it over with tep392, and I incorporated all of the graphic changes except for 1) the 'two-pixel' lipstick for ms. pac (it didn't look right to me), and the square eyes for the 'scared' monsters (also didn't look right to me).

Thanks for taking another look at this game. I noticed that the rounded changes to Ms. Pac-Man also didn't make it into this latest version. Since you said you only left out the lipstick and square ghost eyes I thought I'd mention it in case this was just an oversight.

Marco, I really like your suggestions and am glad you made them. I love Pac-Man 320, but wasn't quite satisfied with Pac-Man Collection and didn't know why until this. I wouldn't have started tinkering if you hadn't asked for smaller dots and Bob may or may not have come back to update this game... only he knows. The other changes really come down to personal taste. It's impossible to perfectly replicate square pixels with the rectangle ones of the 7800, (or 2600 for that matter), so the challenge is finding the right "interpretation" to be happy with. This is where different people will have different tastes. For me, I played around with the sprites until I came to what I was most satisfied with. However, I think I like your addition of a pixel to reduce the depth of the mouth. I haven't decided yet. This is where input from others is really beneficial. We see each others ideas and some of them grow on us until we like them better than our own. Anyway... I really said all that to just say thanks for your input. I enjoy Pac-Man Collection in an emulator more than I did before because of it.

KevinMos3,
I was moved by your gratitude.

Also I want to thank you again.
Most likely without your contribution, the topic would end with my post # 6 (for the same reason also sincerely thank Jeff).

I think it was understood, I really liked all your suggestions (even the ghost square eyes).
Unfortunately I do not have much free time to devote to this passion, therefore this topic and its happy ending is a little experience and you've been a great traveling companion.

Mine is only a small contribution to a great work done by others,
but I'm happy if this small contribution is appreciated.

Sincerely

Marco

[PacManPlus]

Defender_2600, on Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:57 PM, said:

Bob, I knew you as a great professional,
I now know you as a great person.

Sincerely

Marco

Wow - thank you so much for those kind words - that is a *very* nice thing to say.

I appreciate it. ... and I see the same thing about you.

Bob

Edited by PacManPlus, Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:42 AM.

[killersquirel]

I recently pulled out my Cuttle Cart 2 and put all these great new games on there. I'm having problems with both pac-man collection pokey and super circus where I'm not getting any sound at all. I have a pokey installed in my cc2 and tried ballblazer and I was getting all the great pokey tunes from that game. Does anybody know how I should put this in the menu.cc2 file or anything else I might be doing wrong?

Thanks,
mike

[PacManPlus]

Hey Mike:

Thanks for the wonderful compliment in the other thread.

Here's what I have in my CCII:

7800: Pac-Man Collection (uses Pokey) PACPOKEY 78HSCPOK HSC

7800: Super Circus AtariAge SUPERCIR 78HSCPOK HSC

Hope this helps!

Thanks again,
Bob