595 replies to this topic

[iesposta]

rmaerz, on Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:29 PM, said:

cd-w, on Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:34 PM, said:

but if there is enough demand I may take it further.

I demand you take it further!!!

Re: star castle kernel
I, too, demand you take it further! Pew...Pew... Go cd-w!

[Amstari]

potatohead, on Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:29 PM, said:

Here's something to think about. Do you think for a moment the up and coming Boulderdash is going to be a freebie?

Two full levels of Boulderdash were released as a "freebie" even before it was decided there would be a cart released.

[potatohead]

My point on that was the rights holders needed to be dealt with, and they were, and it was done well, not that the people who built the game were in any way linked to the game under discussion. Sorry for the confusion.

[Zach]

Zach, on Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:18 PM, said:

Maybe if I ever find the time to master every homebrew that actually has been released, then I might care about this version of Star Castle.

That totally comes across the wrong way. What I meant was: Have fun with the hobby. There is plenty to keep you busy.

Edited by Zach, Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:43 PM.

[Keatah]

I'm so busy with Apple II stuff and playing other 2600 games I have little time for anything new. I'm writing stuff in Applesoft (don't laugh, and I can do it while making a bowel movement)..Programs that can remotely control WinHTTrack, that and various graphics converters. In addition to making improvements to CiderPress. A lot of value to my ongoing archive projects. But perhaps of little value to the community.

Star Castle is a game I never cared for in its arcade form. I do like a lot of the spinoffs and look-alikes though. Especially on the Apple II and Vectrex.

I indeed cheer on anyone working on StarCastle for the 2600. I poked through the existing demo code and kernel posted and I give it a hefty thumbs up! Star Castle rebooted and marketed correctly can't not be a hit!

Edited by Keatah, Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:52 AM.

[roland p]

potatohead, on Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:25 PM, said:

My point on that was the rights holders needed to be dealt with, and they were, and it was done well, not that the people who built the game were in any way linked to the game under discussion. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm not sure, but I don't think there was a deal with the rights holders of Starcastle. http://www.atariage....29#entry2330329

Edited by roland p, Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:54 AM.

[Cynicaster]

potatohead, on Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:15 PM, said:

Given those things, why the fuss? Retro / hobby / homebrew is huge! Lots to do. If you aren't having fun, then you are doing it wrong. The author is a nice guy. He's got his reasons and they are valid and understandable. IMHO, the crap being tossed about on this thing just looks bad.

If you want to talk about things that "look bad", how about a guy parading onto a scene traditionally characterized by a culture of openness, sharing, and reasonable prices, only to flaunt one of his own works and price it so that it is for all intents and purposes unattainable to the tiny niche of hobbyists that might actually care about it in the first place?

Excuse me, but can somebody pass me my jacket? I think I just felt a douche chill.

[potatohead]

Well, I see it this way.

(said I was done, but this is a totally fair question)

I'm totally with you on the merits of our scene. Open, sharing, prices that make sense, etc.... I just saw somebody else advertizing some game label contest on a work they are going to charge for and they didn't get too much attention so far. This has happened a few times in the past, right?

It should happen here too. The benefit of this scene really only happens when people work with it in ways that make sense. I don't think the Star Castle effort makes any sense in terms of the scene here. It's just not aligned well. The part that looks bad is the sour grapes element I see.

Not faulting anybody, just trying to ask why bother? There is a ton of other stuff to do. The author of it built it for his own reasons, and he wanted to show off, exhibit, which he did. The high price is just not aligned well, so it's done, right? It is as far as I'm concerned. Nice exhibition. Next. That's just where the author is at on it.

We look best as a scene by taking the higher ground. To me that's friendly conversation, and if the requirements are not well aligned, move on, no real attention given past that. Why? There is no potential as long as the requirements don't mesh well with how we do things. But to dig in deeper only encourages more friction and attention and feeding of egos all around. Better things to do.

Guess I'm advocating people just ignore the tease. The moment I saw this start, I KNEW it wasn't going to happen the way the scene does. Never even crossed my mind that it would. So, it was good to entertain on a technical basis and for some chatter, then I'm done. Really, it's not worth anything else, because it's not going to happen in a way that warrants anything else. Better to go and look at RT's new game, which is killer BTW.

From there? Maybe nothing. Maybe somebody makes a better one, which is this scene doing what it does the best, or there is reconsideration down the line. All are ok right? Not like anybody has control, and here's the kicker:

The best ambassadors of what we do are us when we just keep the high ground and have the fun we like to have. Frankly, the appeal of that work exists with us more than anybody else, though I do suspect there is a smaller pro community who would recognize the effort the way a small car community might respect a rebuild of a particularly difficult and appealing car. That's kind of how I see it. Outside of that, it just isn't worth looking bad.

And YES! The tease is crappy. Totally. Not saying it isn't. What I am advocating and not telling anybody mind you, is just take the high ground and keep it all good. Up to creators of things at that point right? We have a lot of fun, are nice folks, and we've got a way things are done. Participate, or not. Or not means not a lot of attention. Participate? You can get accolades and have a lot of fun, right?

It's not always aligned. Look at what Ian did. It's art, and it's for a different crowd. Cool to look at and chat about, then it's forgotten in lieu of things that do align. Different people value different things. I see no upside to aggravating it all.

Maybe that helps clarify my crappy posts above. I guess I'm just not inclined personally to worry over things I don't control. The scene is attractive, and there are some basic requirements to get the benefit of it. Either that makes sense to the author or not, but either way, we just do what we do having fun with or without them, right? If the door is always open the author might choose to step through. if the door gets slammed shut? Then maybe they never step through, by way of analogy. I'm generally a low key door open kind of guy, that's all.

Cheers all!

Edit: Just to be really clear, I've got no issues with anybody here actually. Love the scene, love the regulars and I've had a LOT of fun when it makes sense. I really don't have a problem with the author of Star Castle for VCS either. Would be a lot more fun to see participation like we all enjoy and do, but if that doesn't make sense, then it doesn't make sense. Not really my loss right? The mindshare goes to the things we can enjoy, it's that simple. Frankly, the best move is a "yeah cool", then deadpan it from there, because that is all that can realistically happen. Ball in their court from there.

Edited by potatohead, Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:36 PM.

[Emehr]

potatohead, on Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:29 PM, said:

If the door is always open the author might choose to step through. if the door gets slammed shut? Then maybe they never step through, by way of analogy.

Couldn't have found a better way to say it myself. This is exactly how I feel about the situation. Great post overall, potatohead!

[Lord Helmet]

If I were an active member of this community and also a 2600 programmer (and I'm not...so this could all come across as bullshit)...

I would want to make a great version of Star Castle just to release it into the community since the dude that made the existing one is being silly about it.

[Random Terrain]

I would choose the high road, but I don't approve of drug use. And I hope no one is lumping me in with the nice folks. When the aliens land during the 2012 Olympics and start eating brains, I'm going to be one of the people helping them round up the delicious humans. As long as I wear my aluminum foil hat, they won't try to eat my brain, so I'll be safe while you suckers will be losing your minds.

[Miss 2600]

Random Terrain, on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:20 PM, said:

As long as I wear my aluminum foil hat, they won't try to eat my brain

You gave away the secret!

[theloon]

We should make a bB version called "Star Chasm"

Only prob is coming up with a fast drawline(x, y) routine. Perhaps a pre-calculated routine using pfpixel would do.

Edited by theloon, Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:31 AM.

[cd-w]

iesposta, on Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:56 PM, said:

rmaerz, on Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:29 PM, said:

cd-w, on Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:34 PM, said:

but if there is enough demand I may take it further.

I demand you take it further!!!

Re: star castle kernel
I, too, demand you take it further! Pew...Pew... Go cd-w!

A little more progress - the rings are now displayed in colour. Note that it is still just a kernel demo and it not yet playable in any way.

Chris

[tremoloman2006]

Looking good Chris!

[Cebus Capucinis]

AWESOME!

[NML32]

Nice!!

[accousticguitar]

NML32, on Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:38 PM, said:

Nice!!

Ditto!

[save2600]

I have 110% faith that a new from the ground up, modern technique implementing, 2600 Star Castle will look and play better than any other attempt made thus far.

Cheers and kudos!

[Keatah]

You do of course realize you can't have 110% of anything. 100% is the max allowed in the physical universe.

[save2600]

Keatah, on Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:46 PM, said:

You do of course realize you can't have 110% of anything. 100% is the max allowed in the physical universe.

Bullshit. 110% is what you need to give in order to make up for the deficit incurred by lazy curmudgeons jockeying for position in this life.

Retail has taught me that basic lesson time and time again.

Edited by save2600, Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:54 PM.

[Random Terrain]

Keatah, on Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:46 PM, said:

You do of course realize you can't have 110% of anything. 100% is the max allowed in the physical universe.

If we lived in a hexadecimal universe, would the maximum be 64 percent instead?

[Amstari]

Keatah, on Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:46 PM, said:

You do of course realize you can't have 110% of anything. 100% is the max allowed in the physical universe.

We live in a multiverse, you just need to create a rift between universes and suck another 10% from another universe.

[solidcorp]

godzillajoe, Wickeycolumbus, and others: Thanks for your interest, I'm sorry, I'm not planning to release my version of Star Castle 2600 at this time.

potatohead, Emehr: Thank you for your rational and thoughtful posts.

cd-w: Very nice work and good luck. (I've always encouraged people to explore writing this or any other game)

Andrew Davie, roland p, potatohead: The licensing for Star Castle is far more complicated than a typical port, and while it may not be obvious in the posts on AtariAge, I put significant effort into obtaining the license while doing the game. Take BoulderDash* for instance, First Star Software is quite remarkably still in business making and selling products with the license and there is someone to negotiate with for the right to sell the 2600 version. The Star Castle property has changed hands several times in the last 30 years (Cinematronics, Tradewest, Leland, Midway Games, Wiliams, Warner Brothers Interactive, and possibly, though not likely Atari), and the current license holder is unaware that they own it. Anyway, I now have releases from the legal departments of Midway, Warner Brothers Interactive (the likely license holder), and Atari (Infogrammes). I'm still doubtful anyone here would have thought twice about licensing if the price were twenty bucks or if they were to just download a dump of the game.

*Andrew Davie: Excellent job on BoulderDash 2600, it looks and sounds great. It's one of my all time favorite 8 bit games and it appears that you and 've done it justice.

----------

Cynicaster, Random Terrain, rmaerz, et al: "how about a guy parading onto a scene..." I didn't "parade onto the scene", I'm a former Atari employee who was inspired to write the game to prove it could be done and done well on 1981 technology because a legend said it couldn't. I did it for me, crimifighter played the game at VGS and announced it in 2010 on AtariAge, not me. The discussion that followed was all quite positive until I mentioned that I didn't want to release the game due to piracy, after which I spent page after page defending my position.

In 2011, I made improvements to the game-play, got my cartridge electronics working, fabricated a case and exhibited it again at VGS. It's something I am very proud of (most of what you see on Atari Age is something that someone is very proud of)... I not only wrote the software, I designed the PCB, wrote the bank switching logic, added lights, designed and machined the Lexan case on a CNC machine that I designed and built myself. This time I decided to put a big price on the one physical cartridge I made from scratch. Do you want to know why? Because of AtariAge. Because I was taken totally off guard at how quickly this community turned on me in 2010 for not sharing the game. It was those conversations that made me think to myself: "well, what would you let it go for?" - not "what is it worth?", not "what will the market bear?", not even "what is reasonable?" but what amount of money could I not turn down if offered. I didn't do it for money in the first place, if I had, it would have had a price tag in 2010. (Personally, I think $75 + S&H for BoulderDash is a little nutty and at that price they will gross $37,500 in 500 units, nearly $5K over my asking price, but that's their prerogative and I wish them all the luck, after all it took the two of them 6 years to bring to market - that's a lot of evenings and weekends)

Is it worth it? I don't know. If someone eventually buys it, well, then yes, but if I never sell it, then clearly NO... but then again that's no different from it not being for sale at all. It doesn't matter, if YOU aren't going to buy it then what's the difference between "not for sale" and "costs too much"? (other than in the case in which someone buys then shares the game, which is relevant but beside the point I'm making here)

Re-announcing the price after VGS in the forum may have been in poor taste, even antagonistic, but it was not unprovoked.

The AtariAge forums hold a great community, full of experts and interesting people willing to help or discuss anything Atari, but not everyone has been so gracious. I've been villainized and called a troll here because I won't share something I made and I honestly discussed how I felt about it in just two threads in these forums - without resorting to name calling or threatening anyone's "exhaust pipe" I might add.

Scott

[batari]

solidcorp, on Sun Jan 1, 2012 2:32 PM, said:

(Personally, I think $75 + S&H for BoulderDash is a little nutty and at that price they will gross $37,500 in 500 units, nearly $5K over my asking price, but that's their prerogative and I wish them all the luck, after all it took the two of them 6 years to bring to market - that's a lot of evenings and weekends)

There are only going to be 250 units of BD carts (that's $18,750, $14k less than your price) and it has way more overhead than you can imagine, FAR more than your game. There will be full-color, professional boxes (250, not one), 250 boards (which have 16k RAM, using 250 expensive microcontrollers) and First Star is taking a significant amount in licensing fees. This is the most expensive production for any modern homebrew game, hands down. The programming in this game is simply amazing and consists of thousands of hours of work by several programmers. You really cannot compare.