169 replies to this topic

[rush6432]

Usa/euro or not, im still a fan of atari

Edited by rush6432, Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:14 PM.

[ACrystal2011]

We are all fans no matter what country we are from I imagine that some of us americans can be just as bad as foriegners and some of them just as good as us, There are good and bad no matter where you live.

[ggn]

 kool kitty89, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:06 AM, said:

 ggn, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:40 AM, said:

 kool kitty89, on Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:06 PM, said:

Fixing the bugs on the existing J-RISCs (or even just one of them) would have been enough to displace the 68000 (and make decent J-RISC compilers much more straightforward), though the 68000 is useful for source-ports of 68k assembly console/computer/arcade games of the time. (and, in the context of a CD based system, it could be useful to slave the 68000 for CD-ROM access control/management -like the 68k in the Sega CD or SH1 in the Saturn- with the option to use it as a general purpose processor as well -as in the Sega CD)

Tell me, do you try to be so wrong in your claims or does it come out natural for you?

What parts?

Without the bugs (including TOM's MMU issues -let alone JERRY's whole set of main memory interface problems), it would have been much more practical to produce a good C compiler for the RISCs, right? (having a cache would be nice too . . . but that's more design/testing time/risk too and something Flare almost certainly considered and chose to avoid for such reasons)

Having the 68k onboard would facilitate some source ports too . . . though the utility is arguably limited, more so later in the generation. (and it's only useful if you can actually do source ports . . . ie not licensed conversions of games that aren't actual ports of the original code -and obviously only useful for games written in 68k assembly).

Finally, it could certainly be possible to utilize the 68k as an embedded controller for CD-ROM access in such a system (albeit, that was more in the context of a hypothetical system and not so much in the specific configuration of the 68k in the Jaguar).
Granted, if that's all you were going to use the 68k for, it would be a bit of a waste (compared to cheaper embedded MCUs), hence the context of it being more like the implementation in the Sega CD. (able to be used as a general purpose processor as well as managing CD-ROM accesses -which is necessary for such primitive, low-level CD-ROM hardware -we're not talking a full IDE CD drive here, but barely more than an audio CD player)

Do keep it up, you're so adorable when you're trying to justify yourself

Edited by ggn, Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:29 PM.

[Sauron]

 kevincal, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:29 PM, said:

And you are the typical foreigner always trying to start shit. What the hell is wrong with you guys? Atari is AMERICAN First of all yet you have no respect at all for americans. You and your buddies constantly start flame wars and shit. Why dont you guys stay in your own little private euro forum eh?

Please stop typing crap like that and making me feel embarrassed for being an American. One more outburst like that from you and your posting privileges will be gone.

[Crazyace]

Looking at it more and more it is much more pleasing than the seperate toilet seat addon - If Jaguar had launched like this I think Atari's fortunes may have been slightly different - Have you got many more pictures , or a video, 10p6?
I'm less convinced about 52MHz though - it would need much faster memory and generate a lot more heat. ( What was Freeze like, it doesn't look like something that a standard jaguar would need overclocking for )

[kevincal]

 Sauron, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:43 PM, said:

 kevincal, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:29 PM, said:

And you are the typical foreigner always trying to start shit. What the hell is wrong with you guys? Atari is AMERICAN First of all yet you have no respect at all for americans. You and your buddies constantly start flame wars and shit. Why dont you guys stay in your own little private euro forum eh?

Please stop typing crap like that and making me feel embarrassed for being an American. One more outburst like that from you and your posting privileges will be gone.

here is a perfect example of a moderator abusing his power. You are clueless dude. Read this thread again. It was posted in good fun and to show off a mod that Jag fan did. You will see it was not I nor 10P6 who started any kind of fighting or flaming. Once we got attacked we defended ourselves, yet thats not allowed? According to you its perfectly fine for your Jagware buddies and whoever else to come in here and talk shit to us and we are not allowed to respond? What kind of moderator are you exactly? Do you understand what a moderator is supposed to be? Someone who is NEUTRAL. Look at your signature, you are anything but neutral. Obviously you have some kind of pact with jagware and will defend them even if they are out of line. Whatever, no wonder people like Jason Smith and Thunderbird left here. I thought this place was better than Nintendo age but its the same, moderators there choose sides as well. Thats sad. so again, go look up the definition of moderator for me, and you will see you are failing at your job. Threatening to take away my posting privelidges because defended myself from one of your buddies? It's ludicrous. The truth is ever since these Jagware guys came onto the seen they have done nothing but stir shit in the community and polarizing everyone. Maybe they make some cool games but their attitude is horrible to most people. totally disrespectful. whatever, I dont give a shit, you want to ban me or whatever, it wont hurt my feelings in the slightest. I have done nothing wrong here except defend myself and my friend from unwarranted attacks. And here you as a moderator decided to take sides instead of doing your job of attempting to disolve the flaming. again, reread this whole thread and you will see 10P6 and I did absolutely no sort of fighting or flaming, all we did was talk about the coolness of the new jag mod, it was the others who started all the bullshit like a bunch of children. and yet we are in the wrong, and Im gonna have my posting priveledges taken away for standing up for myself? HAHA. I was planning on ignoring the jag forum for a good while after dealing with this bullshit anyway. so if it makes you feel special go ahead and go on your little power trip Have fun.

[doctorclu]

Hey... no need for that 10p6. I like this thread, just got a bit derailed with the comments about Atari marketing and how easily the bugs in the Jaguar could be fixed, which always stirs things up.

I would like to see this get back on track though.

Years ago (April 2006) I worked with photoshop to create what the Jaguar and CD combined would look like...



Glad to see your work turned out a lot like that.

I studied the parts of both the motherboard and the CD unit, figured they could physically fit, but that the CD unit daughter board would need to be soldered to both, resulting in many wires going from the daughter board to both the Jaguar motherboard and CD Unit board (something like 80 connections in the end?). Between that and holding off on the cutting up of a Jaguar and CD case and the molding and painting, it was a big project. Started to get the nerve and materials together, than got accepted to my business assignment in Kuwait.

But yeh, while I'm sad I didn't get to this first, I've kept my photoshopped picture on my desktop, sometimes as a backdrop, dreaming of the day I could make that happen. Just glad to see it was possible.

So all that said, I would love to see pictures of the inside of the combo you made to see what it took in the end, and how you joined up the two cases in the back of the overall unit.

Edited by doctorclu, Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:56 PM.

[Sauron]

 10p6, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:27 PM, said:

If you are going to make unfounded threats, then remove the thread and my photos. I can very easily and quickly create my own Atari forum should that be the direction you wish people like me and Kev take?

Huh? What I said was not directed towards you in any way. It was directed towards kevincal, who has been stirring up plenty of crap here lately. Not sure what "unfounded threats" you think I made.

kevincal said:

blah blah blah...

Not sure what you're going on about either. You seem to think you can come in here and spout any kind of obnoxious bigoted crap and think there's not any repercussions for it. Unfortunately for you, there's little tolerance for it here.

[ACrystal2011]

I don't see why you wanna ban these guys, they just wanted to show what they had put a lot of time into and show everyone what could be done with enough time and patience.

[doctorclu]

 Jag_Slave, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:39 PM, said:

Back on topic, lets take a look at the real jagduo:

http://media.photobu...R/JagDUO202.jpg

Have to say, now that I've seen a Jaguar and CD unit combined for real, not as much a fan of the prototype JagDuo. Others might think differently, but I like the overall sleek and rounded look. I always felt Atari had the sleek look in mind for the most part in how the original Jaguar was made, but I think in the end the CD unit turned out to be a lot thicker than planned. My theory at least.

[ACrystal2011]

 doctorclu, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:11 PM, said:

 Jag_Slave, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:39 PM, said:

Back on topic, lets take a look at the real jagduo:

http://media.photobu...R/JagDUO202.jpg

Have to say, now that I've seen a Jaguar and CD unit combined for real, not as much a fan of the prototype JagDuo. Others might think differently, but I like the overall sleek and rounded look. I always felt Atari had the sleek look in mind for the most part in how the original Jaguar was made, but I think in the end the CD unit turned out to be a lot thicker than planned. My theory at least.

I agree I like this version better than the JagDuo because it says true to the orginal design of the Jag.

[remowilliams]

 ACrystal2011, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:00 PM, said:

I don't see why you wanna ban these guys, they just wanted to show what they had put a lot of time into and show everyone what could be done with enough time and patience.

I don't see anybody talking about 'guys' - 10p6 hasn't done anything. But it sounds like you missed the part where kevincal is a continually obnoxious raving racist fucknut...

[svenski]

and that was being Remo being subtle ...............

[ACrystal2011]

 ACrystal2011, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:21 PM, said:

We are all fans no matter what country we are from I imagine that some of us americans can be just as bad as foriegners and some of them just as good as us, There are good and bad no matter where you live.

 remowilliams, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:21 PM, said:

 ACrystal2011, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:00 PM, said:

I don't see why you wanna ban these guys, they just wanted to show what they had put a lot of time into and show everyone what could be done with enough time and patience.

I don't see anybody talking about 'guys' - 10p6 hasn't done anything. But it sounds like you missed the part where kevincal is a continually obnoxious raving racist fucknut...

As you can see I did notice and while i don't agree with him on that point I didn't see why he should be banned but I am new to this site and so I don't know how he has acted in the past. So this may be normal behavior but as had been said neither 10p6 or Kevincal started the arguement

[Sauron]

I think it's time for everyone to pipe down. Either stay on topic of the mod or people are gonna start getting booted out of the thread.

[Austin]

remowilliams, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:53 PM, said:

Yes, DIRTY FORNERS. Nice one Gorf junior.

He's not quite Gorf Jr. until he brings God into the picture. Although with that Jewish conspiracy crap and his general racist attitude, he's coming pretty close.

[kool kitty89]

Crazyace, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:52 PM, said:

Looking at it more and more it is much more pleasing than the seperate toilet seat addon - If Jaguar had launched like this I think Atari's fortunes may have been slightly different - Have you got many more pictures , or a video, 10p6?
I'm less convinced about 52MHz though - it would need much faster memory and generate a lot more heat. ( What was Freeze like, it doesn't look like something that a standard jaguar would need overclocking for )

Yeah, and, again, I find it a lot more appealing (aesthetically) than the actual Jag Duo mock-up.
http://media.photobu...R/JagDUO202.jpg

10p6, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:49 AM, said:

Memory prices in 1992/1993 would have added about $40 t0 $60 (Less in Bulk) to the cost to double the DRAM, however this with a 52 MHZ (stock TOM and JERRY do work at that speed) would have more than offset the cost of the 68000 and related hardware. Even more so, with the 68000 gone, all the CD electronics could have been placed on the same JAG PCB and saved even more money by removing the cost of the CD PCB.

Yes, RAM would have been a major expense, and as it was, RAM was a huge chunk of the total component cost of the system. (also remember that raw manufacturing cost will be inflated substantially by the time you make retail, so small price additions can mean significant increases in SRP -let alone substantial cost additions like a CD drive or double the RAM)

Plus (in hindsight), with the CD, drive prices fell rapidly in the mid 90s, but RAM prices (especially from the standpoint of bulk, low-end DRAM) stagnated around $3/Mbit from 1992 through early 1996. (actually the average prices increased somewhat in that time -prior to the considerable drop in mid/late '96)
Albeit adding a single 512k or 128k 16-bit DRAM chip in the 2nd DRAM bank might have been more realistic. (and, more than just adding memory, it would be extremely useful for texture mapping, since -with the Jaguar's dual-bank interleaving- source and destination pages could be held open for a maximum rate of 4 cycles per textel rather than 13 -in the 37.5 MHz example- )

As for clock speeds, yes, the existing chips may handle it (at least in some systems), but it would take much more testing to know for sure what sort of yields they were getting.
If all production models are indeed stable at such clock speeds, it's rather odd that they'd underclock them so much, unless maybe it was due to the speeds used on preproduction units. (RAM would be an issue too, and while 52 MHz would have been to much for the existing DRAM used - 52 MHz would need 38 ns PC timing- that 80 ns Toshiba DRAM used is rated for 50 ns minimum page cycle timing, so 37.5 MHz would seem the ideal clock rate to use -allowing a 3-cycle long pulse to provide 80 ns RAC timing, 2 cycles allowing 53.3 ns for page-mode reads/writes, and 6 cycles -160 ns- for random reads/writes -this DRAM has 150 ns minimum RC time)
TOM's DRAM controller is locked at 2 cycles for page-mode cycle time, but other parameters are programmable. (including RAS, RAC, etc)

52 MHz (38 ns PC time -2 cycles) should be possible with FPM DRAM, but they'd need to bump it up a few speed grades. (most 50 ns FPM DRAM seems to be rated at 35 ns PC timing, but with a 52 MHz clock, you'd be underclocking that a bit at 57.7 ns RAC, so PC timing might not remain fast enough in that case -EDO DRAM would easily handle it though, but I'm not sure what sort of modifications the system would need to support that)

Quote

Also with the 68000 gone we would have seen less crap game ports.

From that standpoint, you also may have simply seen fewer games in general . . . though if the bugs were fixed on the RISCs (or at least 1 of them), that shouldn't have been an issue in any case. (source-ports of some older games would have been more difficult, but actual conversions of many newer games would probably be much easier -since you'd have straightforward programming of much more powerful processors, necessary for many newer games -plus, PC games or SNES games wouldn't cater to 68k source ports anyway -and PC ports probably should have been a major effort for the Jaguar, especially for 3D/pseudo 3D stuff -like Wing Commander I and II, Comanche, X-Wing, Tie Fighter, Wacky Wheels, Blake Stone, Duke 3D, -Wolf 3D and Doom already there, and some 2D games like Jazz Jackrabbit and various adventure games -several of those games would effectively have been exclusives since no other consoles featured them)

Quote

From day one I think Atari should have fixed the Chip design flaws (Two different fabrications of V 1.0 and they did not remove the flaw is BS), as for using the 68000 for a system compiler I would not bother with. Instead I would have included a larger system ROM with more features, and I would have made a version of the Falcon with Tom, Jerry and the CD built in to make game development much easier. If Atari would have shared programming tips between developers too that would have helped.

Yes, there's a lot of things they should have done under better circumstances, but a lot of what they did do was out of desperation (like the whole 1993 test market, mainly to drum-up desperately needed investor interest)

Ongoing management issues didn't help (and were exacerbated by the financial state too), but the major issue was Atari's overall situation/stability by 1993. (due to the steady downward spiral from ~1988/1989 onward -in both their computer and game markets, from the consumer standpoint and in terms of internal management and technology)

Had the computers and/or console business continued to do well and expand from ~'88 into the early 90s, Atari could have been in a much better market position with much better funding (and credit -and PR) by 1993. (and that added funding might also have afforded smoother development of the Jaguar in the first place, but at very least afforded the necessary time to address the major bugs -plus, established products on the market already would mean less need to rush out a new system as they did with the Jag)

And, yes, if they were still producing computers as such, it would indeed have been interesting to have newer computers including the Jaguar chipset (or part of it). More so if they'd kept the computer architectures a bit simpler, meaning less redundant hardware for compatibility. (like if they'd focused mainly on faster CPUs, simple DMA sound, and improved bitmap graphics modes -higher color depth, scrolling, chunky pixels, etc)

Edited by kool kitty89, Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:29 PM.

[kskunk]

Just a side note on the 52MHz discussion:

I'm pretty familiar with Tom and I'm quite certain that it can't run at 52MHz.

There is evidence of slow paths in the chip in the test files: Tom's factory test vectors run partially at 40MHz, then slow down to 25MHz when testing certain parts of the object processor. The comments say "the following vectors use the multipliers so run at 25MHz not 40". This is relevant because chips are tested as fast as they possibly can be, because test time is a major part of an ASIC's cost. They slowed down the test because they had to - the chip isn't fast enough.

There is evidence of slow paths in the chip in the documentation: The official Tom documentation, prepared by Tom's designers, say that 40MHz operation is only possible for a small portion of the chip - the video generator, and only when CRY is disabled. The docs state that the object processor can't run above 26MHz.

The final nail: The chip was designed on TC25SC process technology, which has an EMG limit of 50MHz at 5V. In plain English, that means the chip will start to destroy itself if run above 50MHz for more than a few hours.

I like to think 32MHz is possible with heat sinks and fast RAM, but I don't have the soldering skill to ever find out... Incidentally, there is a bug in the video generator that limits you to 32MHz for PAL/NTSC. So console Jags will never go faster than that. Arcade Jags might be able to go 40MHz if you use VGA, the right subset of features, and active cooling...

- KS

Back on topic: Kick ass case mod. Where's the preorder list?

Edited by kskunk, Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:49 AM.

[Zerosquare]

kskunk, on Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:36 AM, said:

I like to think 32MHz is possible with heat sinks and fast RAM, but I don't have the soldering skill to ever find out...

It definitely is

Edited by Zerosquare, Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:35 AM.

[ACrystal2011]

Zerosquare, on Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:34 AM, said:

kskunk, on Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:36 AM, said:

I like to think 32MHz is possible with heat sinks and fast RAM, but I don't have the soldering skill to ever find out...

It definitely is

Too bad the video's are not up anymore.

[kskunk]

Merry Christmas to you, too!

10p6, on Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:45 AM, said:

As for the rest it seems conflicting between what you say the doc's say and what other prototypes say. As a note the manufacturing process used by Tom and Jerry support clock speeds of well over 300 MHz, At 5v numerous CPU's have been made to run around or over 100 MHz.

I think the prototypes are probably just labeled in a confusing way. It's quite possible there is a 52MHz clock around, that is divided right before going into the chip to produce the familiar 26MHz.

The Flare documentation I'm citing is in jag_v8.pdf. Definitely find and read it if you're interested in this stuff. I admit it's a little cryptic. The video generator max frequency is cited at 40MHz, but near the end of the document they say "With a 32MHz clock rate this [Horizontal Period] register is only just long enough to achieve the 64us video line length." Which just means that PAL/NTSC modes stop working above 32MHz on Tom.

I'm curious about the 5V CMOS processors you've seen that run at 100MHz. I've never seen that. I have seen processors that run internally at a lower voltage, but still have 5V I/O. Multiple power supplies are very common in chips starting at 50MHz, because of the electromigration issue and of course, heat.

The fastest pure 5V processor I've ever seen was the Intel Pentium at 66MHz. Note this wasn't pure CMOS either - it was a hybrid Bipolar/CMOS process that had superior EMG tolerance. Intel really had to push the envelope on that chip. When Intel switched to 75MHz, they had to drop to 3.3V. The Playstation was also at 3.3V to achieve its 33MHz on pure CMOS. The first PowerPCs started at 3.3V. The Saturn's SH-2 was the last pure CMOS/pure 5V processor in a console that I'm aware of, and that chip had a max rated speed of 30MHz.

Another clue a processor is not 5V internally is the process node. Below 0.8 microns, 5V core operation is no longer possible, because gate widths are too small to sustain voltages that high. Tom, the SH-2s, and the first Pentiums were 0.8 microns. (Don't believe the Jaguar FAQ's 0.5 micron answer, it's a rumor from Usenet and not true. Just look at the Tom nelist files - TC25SC was 0.8 micron.) If you find a 0.6 micron processor mislabeled as 5V, it's probably 3.3V internally.

Sorry if this is too spammy. I'm a serious chip geek. I can't help it!

- KS

Edited by kskunk, Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:07 AM.

[ls650]

Nice technical information...
more of that and less of the "Team America! Fuck yeah!" nonsense, please.

[Gaztee]

This topic has turned into nerd nirvana!! That said it's all interesting stuff :0)

[averybluemonkey]

kevincal, on Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:29 PM, said:

And you are the typical foreigner always trying to start shit. What the hell is wrong with you guys? Atari is AMERICAN First of all yet you have no respect at all for americans. You and your buddies constantly start flame wars and shit. Why dont you guys stay in your own little private euro forum eh?

Wow, nice to see some good old fashioned racism there. I believe the Jaguar was designed by a Brit and a disproportionate number of the more well regarded titles were British too (Tempest 2k, Aliens Versus Predators, Battlemorph), if anything I'd say it was more of a British machine than an American one.

Regarding the combined unit it's very sleek indeed, though personally I've never understood the toilet comparisons myself. Of all the console add-ons the Jag always seemed the sleekest to me.

Edited by averybluemonkey, Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:25 PM.

[Zerosquare]

This is indeed SCPCD demonstrating his overclocked console