53 replies to this topic

[ACrystal2011]

Just noticed that both Skycopter II and Speedster II are listed as coming soon on Beta Phase Games website http://betaphasegames.com/Store.html are these going to be complete boxed reproductions?
I also saw a post on here somewhere of some boxed copies on ebay for crazy amount of money hopefully thats not the case with these.

[Gaztee]

Buddybudies or Willard are the men to ask! I'm certainly not getting either of them even if the price was $20! Will be interesting to see if they sell well! As somebody said to me recently - that jaguar lot are all crazy!!

[Willard]

As noted on the BPG website, this release will be a collaberation with The Goat Store as well (publishers of the Skunkboard Rev 3).

BPG and Goat Store have received the total remaining inventory from Carousel concerning the Speedster II and Skycopter II cartridges, so the initial release will not be reproductions - they will be actual cartridges that were manufactured at Carousel Int'l.

Without giving too much away as an announcement is forthcoming, they will be packaged in some form and the release will come with a cache of other goodies and information. Final prices cannot be revealed at this point since we're still in the process of producing the packaging .etc but I can say with certainty that the final price will be far below those on ebay (which isn't saying much tbh but trust me) and the final product will include far more content.

As for the games themselves, they are def. not killer apps on the Jaguar but I think that fans of the system will find these obscure '96 arcade releases to be pretty interesting. A release is being planned for the near future (say Q1 - Q2 2012) so more information will be provided soon and you can decide what to make of the release when it's announced

[goatdan]

I'll just toss in a quick two cents to note that not just has it been a fascinating time helping to move these forward, but I think that Jaguar fans are really in for quite the treat with the final package. There is still a lot to be worked out, and while I agree that they are not a killer app for the Jaguar, they are one of the interesting little oddities that I think makes the Jaguar as interesting of a console as it is.

Keep watching, and sign up for the GOAT Store mailing list and / or the Beta Phase Mailing list and you'll be amongst the first to hear about exactly what these will include and when we will be releasing them.

Also, please note -- the copies that were for sale on eBay included boxes that were made to house the cartridges. There was never an official box made for these games, this was something that I believe that owner did specifically for his own carts. In fact, there was never an official label or anything for the carts, as they were planned to be housed inside an arcade unit. I personally don't understand why they are labeled as a 9 on the site, as they are part of a commercial coin operated machine that never made it beyond the prototyping stage, but for a time Carousel did sell cartridges to those who asked them for them, so perhaps that is why.

Regardless, it's a fascinating story, and one we're excited to share with Beta Phase Games!

[16BitMan]

ACrystal2011, on Tue Jan 3, 2012 5:52 PM, said:

I also saw a post on here somewhere of some boxed copies on ebay for crazy amount of money hopefully thats not the case with these.

Was that Kevincal by any chance?

He is the laughing stock of the Sega (and now Neo Geo) community, the over priced crack whore of eBay.

[ls650]

Are these games actually any fun to play? From what I've seen of them (Youtube vids) they look, um, rather lame... but maybe I am wrong?

[sh3-rg]

ls650, on Wed Jan 4, 2012 1:28 PM, said:

Are these games actually any fun to play? From what I've seen of them (Youtube vids) they look, um, rather lame... but maybe I am wrong?

They're immense fun! ...as long as you're the one watching the poor fool holding two jagpads attempting to 'play' these 'games'

I took some videos of someone playing, but didn't post them to youtube as they really weren't worth watching (I was attempting to capture the sprite clipping errors rather than to make a video worth watching).

Purely for the must-own-everything-ever-released-at-all-costs collector, zero first-person entertainment value.

[Willard]

these games weren't actually meant to be sold on store shelves, they were used in childrens rides and so I highly doubt there are many experienced gamers that would put them in their top 10. I personally find their obscure status in the Jaguar's history more interesting than the games, but fwiw I think that the CG graphics are decent for their time.

based on their intitial cost, size of the game, and past difficult sourcing information on how to buy them there do not seem to be alot of people who own the games to comment firsthand. when I was reviewing them to create a manual I found them to be a little more playable than I expected... but by today's standards they are fairly simple. My younger cousin loves playing them. As I noted, I would't call them Killer apps, but they aren't exactly bad games in the sense that their gameplay mechanics are fundementally broken like some other Jaguar titles.

[sh3-rg]

Willard, on Wed Jan 4, 2012 2:26 PM, said:

but they aren't exactly bad games in the sense that their gameplay mechanics are fundementally broken like some other Jaguar titles.

I like the fact that they exist. I like the fact that someone tried to put a warehouse full of Jaguars to some use. I like the fact that the original cartridges exist & are being sold off in nice packaging for collectors to hug and be proud of.

But you can't honestly be attempting to compare these with real Jaguar games?

As something to be on-screen in a kiddie ride they would have done a job. As something to own for a collector to sit on a shelf in order to keep on top of a complete collection, they'll do as good as any other combination of 0s and 1s stuck on a cartridge that will rarely or if ever be put to any use. But as something to sit & play I don't see it. They barely qualify as games in the strict definition of the word.

They're curios. They look like someone said "today I'm going to learn how to do sprite scaling on the Jaguar" and after lunch they sat back to look at what they'd done & thought better of it & filed it away. It's obvious a lot more work went into creating the graphics than the code, but graphics don't make a game.

Not sure what your young cousin sees in them. My young cousins like playing Lego Star Wars, FIFA, that kind of stuff. If I sat them in front of either of these 'games', well, it'd be SERIOUS!!11ONEONE

[Atari_Owl]

Willard, on Wed Jan 4, 2012 2:26 PM, said:

but they aren't exactly bad games in the sense that their gameplay mechanics are fundementally broken like some other Jaguar titles.

To be fair to the other Jag games though its relatively easy to have 'unbroken' gameplay mechanics where there are near enough no gameplay mechanics to break.

[ACrystal2011]

Thanks for the replies guys, I think these would make an interesting addition to the jag library (even if they arent the greatest games). I'll probably try and get myself copies when they are released.

[save2600]

Can't wait to see what these will retail at.

[goatdan]

I've been a Jaguar collector now for about 15 years, and for some reason these always interested me. There are certain unfinished projects that gave the Jaguar this awesome allure, and these were two of them for me. It wasn't like either one was going to set the world on fire, nor save the Jaguar by any stretch, but it's extremely unique for a coin-op company to try to leverage existing hardware to program something in an extremely limited manner. Somehow, somewhere, the decision was made to use the Jaguar as the basis to this very limited game.

Then, what is even crazier, somehow Jaguar fans figured out that this was being done -- and honestly, who discovered these the first time? How in the world did that come about? -- but once they were discovered, Jaguar fans started purchasing cartridges from the coin-op manufacturer to have for their own collections. It's like people started getting in on owning a prototype of an arcade machine that may or may not be released.


These cartridges aren't by any stretch a great game. But they are am extremely, extremely unique piece of video game history, and that history is what I think gets people to collect for the Jaguar over other consoles -- a lot of really weird, but ultimately really great ideas were hatched on this thing, and this is one of the weirder and more high profile ones.

I'll also say this -- I owned one of these carts before we got involved with the purchase of them (turns out, a unique cart too) -- in a very weird way, I helped discover that they existed thanks to the Midwest Gaming Classic about this time last year through a buddy who had unknowingly purchased the rights and inventory from Carousel when they were going out of business. I had never had much interest in owning more than one of them though, because I don't really consider them part of the "core" set. The history though has always fascinated me, and I know that the package that we're working on together now has me really interested in seeing the final product, and I think that a lot of people will be really interested in it.

It's not the game, it is the history around the game.

[omf]

ACrystal2011, on Tue Jan 3, 2012 5:52 PM, said:

Just noticed that both Skycopter II and Speedster II are listed as coming soon on Beta Phase Games website http://betaphasegames.com/Store.html are these going to be complete boxed reproductions?
I also saw a post on here somewhere of some boxed copies on ebay for crazy amount of money hopefully thats not the case with these.

to be quite honest, dont waste your money, this is a very poor purchases at any price

goatdan, on Wed Jan 4, 2012 12:57 AM, said:

I'll just toss in a quick two cents to note that not just has it been a fascinating time helping to move these forward, but I think that Jaguar fans are really in for quite the treat with the final package. There is still a lot to be worked out, and while I agree that they are not a killer app for the Jaguar, they are one of the interesting little oddities that I think makes the Jaguar as interesting of a console as it is.

Keep watching, and sign up for the GOAT Store mailing list and / or the Beta Phase Mailing list and you'll be amongst the first to hear about exactly what these will include and when we will be releasing them.

Also, please note -- the copies that were for sale on eBay included boxes that were made to house the cartridges. There was never an official box made for these games, this was something that I believe that owner did specifically for his own carts. In fact, there was never an official label or anything for the carts, as they were planned to be housed inside an arcade unit. I personally don't understand why they are labeled as a 9 on the site, as they are part of a commercial coin operated machine that never made it beyond the prototyping stage, but for a time Carousel did sell cartridges to those who asked them for them, so perhaps that is why.

Regardless, it's a fascinating story, and one we're excited to share with Beta Phase Games!

how can you class this release as interesting, you cant make shit games interesting LOL
i regret in many ways wasting the money i spent on these originals.


if you do have an uncontrollable urge to buy this, let me tell you one thing. you will play them once for less than 5 minutes and not play it again for a LONG LONG time

[twoquickcapri]

Are they going to come in cases like Aircars KA did or the more standard box.

[CyranoJ]

omf, on Wed Jan 4, 2012 7:19 PM, said:

if you do have an uncontrollable urge to buy this, let me tell you one thing. you will play them once for less than 5 minutes and not play it again for a LONG LONG time

...And only then in a "is it really as crap as I remember?" scenario - For less than another 5 minutes.

[goatdan]

omf, on Wed Jan 4, 2012 7:19 PM, said:

how can you class this release as interesting, you cant make shit games interesting LOL
i regret in many ways wasting the money i spent on these originals.

That might be what you think, but it sure isn't how I feel about them. If your mileage varies, I don't really care. I never pretend that each release is for everyone, but for those who are interested in Jaguar history (like a LOT of the collectors who I know are), I think that they will find this very interesting. I guess that you decided to pay a ton of money to buy these hoping they would play better than Tempest 2000 or even Zool 2, and if you did I would suggest looking into your purchases more in the future first. It's definitely not a $200+ game like it has sold for in the past if you're looking for gameplay.

[rush6432]

While not top notch titles, its nice to see they get released officially out there along with whatever else that may come with it. (ie goodies)

Glad to see anything released for the jag anymore since its long past its shelf life.

Edited by rush6432, Thu Jan 5, 2012 7:34 AM.

[LinkoVitch]

rush6432, on Thu Jan 5, 2012 6:36 AM, said:

While not top notch titles, its nice to see theym get released officially out there along with whatever else that may come with it. (ie goodies)

Glad to see anything released for the jag anymore since its long past its shelf life.

Releasing stuff = Cool

Price gouging the crap out of the small community = seriously NOT cool. (I am referring to the $400+ ebay auctions here).

I'd much rather see stuff start at a sane low price and let people bid them up to what they are worth. Especially with what seems to be a growing trade of people duplicating prototype carts and then selling the duplicates on as 'prototypes'.

[omf]

goatdan, on Wed Jan 4, 2012 10:30 PM, said:

omf, on Wed Jan 4, 2012 7:19 PM, said:

how can you class this release as interesting, you cant make shit games interesting LOL
i regret in many ways wasting the money i spent on these originals.

That might be what you think, but it sure isn't how I feel about them. If your mileage varies, I don't really care. I never pretend that each release is for everyone, but for those who are interested in Jaguar history (like a LOT of the collectors who I know are), I think that they will find this very interesting. I guess that you decided to pay a ton of money to buy these hoping they would play better than Tempest 2000 or even Zool 2, and if you did I would suggest looking into your purchases more in the future first. It's definitely not a $200+ game like it has sold for in the past if you're looking for gameplay.

then you guess wrong. i bought it because i wanted to buy it at the time, did i know they were 'crap' yes.

i am just emphasising the fact so that people are clear, they have to really want this crap to buy it in the first place as its piss poor...

[goatdan]

omf, on Thu Jan 5, 2012 4:59 PM, said:

then you guess wrong. i bought it because i wanted to buy it at the time, did i know they were 'crap' yes.

i am just emphasising the fact so that people are clear, they have to really want this crap to buy it in the first place as its piss poor...

Well then, if you bought them knowing full well they were crap, and then you were disappointed in your purchase, I don't know what to tell you. We're not going to go out there and claim these to be the best game released for the Jaguar, but I'm glad that you warned everyone so that no one else will make decisions like you do. Thanks for the public service warning.

Tell you what -- I'll help you out. If you're planning on buying one of these when we complete the packages because you expect the gameplay to be superb and live up to the $200+ price tag of the past, then I expect you'll be disappointed when your purchase isn't awesome. Having said that, I don't know of too many collectors who buy really rare games with the expectation of their gameplay living up to the hype. Does Air Raid have enough gameplay for the 2600 to be worth $3000? Do the competition carts for the NES and SNES have enough game play to be worth $250+?

If you buy things expecting them to be a neat part of history, and a cool conversation piece, then I think this release will appeal to you. I didn't buy my game a while ago expecting the gameplay to rule, so I can't pretend I've been disappointed by it. And, I knew what I was doing when we went in to purchase the rights to the games. And, I don't think that either the GOAT Store or Beta Phase Games are planning on saying this is our favorite game ever. It's a unique piece of Jaguar history. Don't agree? Then don't buy.

[ACrystal2011]

I think it would have been cool to have seen the actual working kiddie ride and I think anyone that actually picks these up will be doing it to complete their collection and to own a piece of gaming history. I'm sure most Jag collectors know that these were not going to push the hardwares limits but just want to be able to load them up and play every once in awhile to remember that the Jag was going to be more than just a home gaming platforming at one point in time.

[Shamus]

You know, I think this has to rank up on the excitement scale right alongside those jaguar console shells that were made into dental camera housings.

And we don't have to wonder "what could have become" of the Jaguar platform in the future, we know what it became: The CoJag system (think Area 51 and Vicious Circle).

[goatdan]

Shamus, on Thu Jan 5, 2012 9:58 PM, said:

You know, I think this has to rank up on the excitement scale right alongside those jaguar console shells that were made into dental camera housings.

Ironically enough, which I also thought was really cool and rather unique for the Jaguar, and I even talked with the fellow who was selling them about the possibility of us carrying at the GOAT Store

Quote

And we don't have to wonder "what could have become" of the Jaguar platform in the future, we know what it became: The CoJag system (think Area 51 and Vicious Circle).

To be totally fair, the arcade hardware wasn't a very good "what could have become" of the Jaguar platform, as it was far too changed to actually be the platform itself. I have an Area 51 / Maximum Force cabinet (in a Maximum Force, which I like better personally). The hardware in it was really an iteration of the Jaguar hardware that was specifically built for arcade use. The system has an upgraded processor, and perhaps most importantly upgraded RAM and a hard drive that streams a TON of info to the game. The game that it contained was absolutely amazing, and Atari Games really was cranking out great games in the mid to late 90s. Area 51 remained one of the top arcade earners for about 5 years as I recall.

But, the Jaguar hardware, even in it's upgraded form, did not provide a good enough platform to continue to use it. I believe that only was used in five games, three of which were unreleased -- Area 51, Maximum Force, Freeze, Fishin' Frenzy, and Vicious Circle. (I don't count Area 51 / Maximum Force as another game.) Supposedly, there is also 3 on 3 Basketball, but I've never seen anything from that game. Which means that the Jaguar hardware in the arcade environment was right to make two of the greatest arcade shooters ever, but couldn't really do much else there either.

Compared to the Sega NAOMI board based off the Dreamcast hardware, which there were like 100 games made for that over 9 years, it was clear that the future of the Jaguar hardware would have had to have been in a wholly different form to really make it.

The Carousel story is interesting because they were trying not to make a new arcade game to set the world on fire, like a Tempest or a Tekken or a Maximum Force, but instead they were looking for a cheap way to introduce a gameplay mechanic into a type of coin operated machinery that has never traditionally had gameplay in them, period. They didn't need the hardware to be powerful -- the 5 and under crowd who were mostly playing this wouldn't care -- but they wanted their games to stick out amongst the trucks, planes, and trains that just rock back and forth -- so they would attach a simple game to make their machines into the must-ride kiddie rides where ever people went. But then there was another idea -- to theme each game to the locations they were at, to ensure the stores the games were at would showcase the machine.

It was a great idea, but as so often happens with great ideas -- something happened. The game made it to the prototyping stage, and after that point it died. And that is a pretty interesting story, I think.

I collect arcade machines and am fascinated by them and their history -- I have about probably 40 machines, mostly pins, but a bunch of vids too -- and this is the sort of thing that absolutely fascinates me -- the development history of these games. I love it. I'm sure that some others feel like me. Playing the game gets me to think about the possibilities that could have been in an industry that needs more thinking outside the box. My copy of Skycopter will always hang out here because of that

[CyranoJ]

goatdan, on Thu Jan 5, 2012 9:04 PM, said:

Having said that, I don't know of too many collectors who buy really rare games with the expectation of their gameplay living up to the hype. Does Air Raid have enough gameplay for the 2600 to be worth $3000?

That is a bit of an unfair comparison, because in the case of Air Raid you are not purchasing a reproduction. Is a photo of the Mona Lisa worth the same as the original?