52 replies to this topic

[SpendTooMuchOnAtari]

http://news.yahoo.co...-055515676.html

[HatefulGravey]

Terrorist. "Give us what we want or we will jump" is a bad way to make a deal.

[Rex Dart]

Makes me wonder how it'd be if Microsoft hadn't switched to Chinese production. Sure, the Mexican-made Xboxes caught fire, but otherwise they were pretty damn stable.

[Hyper_Eye]

A flawed design will result in a flawed build no matter what country you produce it in.

[HuckleCat]

I don't see how this is Microsofts problem. These people are not Microsoft employees, they're Foxconn employees. It's up to Foxconn to make sure their employees are happy.

[Hyper_Eye]

I think it is Microsofts responsibility to insist on appropriate working conditions for the workers that build their hardware. If those conditions aren't met they should take their business to a different company.

[HuckleCat]

Hyper_Eye, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:13 PM, said:

I think it is Microsofts responsibility to insist on appropriate working conditions

Actually, it's not. I know it sounds cold, but their real responsibilities are to keep costs down, and find a cheap, but effective place to assemble the hardware.

Now, it would be nice if Microsoft cared enough to take it's business to a more people-friendly electronics plant, true, but it's not their responsibility,

[Hyper_Eye]

The hell it isn't. They are a major purchaser of labor and any company providing those services would want that business. If they continue paying a company for labor knowing that the worker conditions are unacceptable it is absolutely on them. It is not only a corporations responsibility to keep costs down. It is their responsibility to maintain a positive brand image. Low costs at the price of supporting slave labor is not acceptable and should severely negatively impact the brand. I hope these stories continue to find their way onto CNN and other major news outlets putting pressure on Microsoft and Apple to do more to solve this problem.

[HuckleCat]

Hyper_Eye, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:33 PM, said:

It is their responsibility to maintain a positive brand image.

This is true. They may actually do something about it at this point, but it won't be due to "human responsibility", it will be to simply save face.

It's cold, and it sucks, I know, but that's just the way it is.

Meanwhile Apple seems to not care whatsoever that their devices are being made by what is basically human cattle. Should they care? Absolutely. Will not caring have a negative effect? Go ask any of the participants of the many "Occupy" movements who are tweeting everything they do on their iPhone.

[HatefulGravey]

Lets face the truth here, if you own anything made in China, or any of the other countries that let this happen you are part of the problem. I know I am and I guess I have to be ok with it. If you want to stop problems like this stop buying anything that is made in those countries and kiss your money good bye. The fact is the lower the cost to produce the lower the cost to buy. It sounds cold, and it sucks but it is a fact, and one we have been living with for years. This is nothing new.

[Hyper_Eye]

There is a big difference between not having a responsibility for something and disregarding a responsibility. Corporations are not people and they do not have human emotions or human apathy but the people driving them should. The conditions these workers live in and work in are appalling. Yes we are part of the problem for buying these products. I don't think the problem has been as apparent in the past as it is now. With the restrictions the media have in China and the facade the government there presents the extent of these problems may not have been as well known. Consumer awareness is growing. Maybe it will result in an outcry. Maybe not. If it doesn't that is not a reflection on what our responsibilities are. It is a reflection on our character and the character of the people that run our corporations.

[Austin]

HuckleCat, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:41 PM, said:

It's cold, and it sucks, I know, but that's just the way it is.

That's not the way it has to be, though, nor is it how it should be.

[madmax2069]

Austin, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:34 PM, said:

HuckleCat, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:41 PM, said:

It's cold, and it sucks, I know, but that's just the way it is.

That's not the way it has to be, though, nor is it how it should be.

+1 agreed, its only the way it is now because we allowed it to happen in the first place.

[Video]

Give us what we want or we'll jump? Uh...yeah, I think I'd tell em go ahead and jump. And the ones who don't...go find a new job

[Hyper_Eye]

Video, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:27 PM, said:

Give us what we want or we'll jump? Uh...yeah, I think I'd tell em go ahead and jump. And the ones who don't...go find a new job

There's a realistic view of the world. Why aren't those people accepting a job from the plethora available to them? What morons, choosing to work those jobs and allowing themselves to feel so desperate that they think the only way out is death. I know! Maybe they should just elect new leaders to run their communist government! Oh wait...

[HatefulGravey]

madmax2069, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:47 PM, said:

Austin, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:34 PM, said:

HuckleCat, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:41 PM, said:

It's cold, and it sucks, I know, but that's just the way it is.

That's not the way it has to be, though, nor is it how it should be.

+1 agreed, its only the way it is now because we allowed it to happen in the first place.

I have to say I don't see it changing much. Most of the world likes to pretend like these things don't happen, and you can either be part of things like this or stop buying most of the things you buy. The only way to stop this kind of thing is to hurt the pocket of those doing it, and the only way to do that is to stop buying from them. Your cell phone, TV, computer, console, and MP3 player will be the first to go.

And if this all does go away and things get better for those people then prices here will go through the freaking roof. People here want much more to do these jobs and that will raise the price on these things liek crazy. It isn't as easy as just changing the way things are done, the ripples reach far on things like this.

[JamesD]

The Chinese employees don't work for Microsoft.
China's factories are pretty much owned and run by the state.
If you want to blame someone, blame the communists.

[Austin]

HatefulGravey, on Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:42 AM, said:

I have to say I don't see it changing much. Most of the world likes to pretend like these things don't happen, and you can either be part of things like this or stop buying most of the things you buy. The

You are right, it probably won't change. But it never will if people do not actively speak their minds about it.

[Atariboy]

HuckleCat, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:25 PM, said:

Hyper_Eye, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:13 PM, said:

I think it is Microsofts responsibility to insist on appropriate working conditions

Actually, it's not. I know it sounds cold, but their real responsibilities are to keep costs down, and find a cheap, but effective place to assemble the hardware.

Now, it would be nice if Microsoft cared enough to take it's business to a more people-friendly electronics plant, true, but it's not their responsibility,

They have a responsibility to their stakeholders. That extends to groups like suppliers, retail partners that stock their products, and so on since they're all affected by Microsoft's decisions (Such as a poor choice of a contract manufacturer for your hardware). Maximizing profit for their shareholders is their primary responsibility, of course, but it also isn't their only responsibility. They have a responsibility to a large range of people and groups, from their customer base to the communities that their business operates out of.

It's business 101.

HatefulGravey, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:55 PM, said:

Lets face the truth here, if you own anything made in China, or any of the other countries that let this happen you are part of the problem. I know I am and I guess I have to be ok with it. If you want to stop problems like this stop buying anything that is made in those countries and kiss your money good bye. The fact is the lower the cost to produce the lower the cost to buy. It sounds cold, and it sucks but it is a fact, and one we have been living with for years. This is nothing new.

In 2012, the only way to avoid buying or owning products made in China is to make a complete retreat from civilizarion.

I, for one, don't intend to become a hermit living in isolation off the land.

JamesD, on Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:07 PM, said:

The Chinese employees don't work for Microsoft.
China's factories are pretty much owned and run by the state.
If you want to blame someone, blame the communists.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the people like these factory workers. Their Communist led government achieved and has maintained this power since their public has allowed it to happen.

As such, they don't deserve any sympathy. They've had revolutions and changes in power in the past. If they're unhappy, it's their responsibility to make changes.

Edited by Atariboy, Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:33 AM.

[Hyper_Eye]

Atariboy, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:26 AM, said:

If you want to blame anyone, blame the people like these factory workers. Their Communist led government achieved and has maintained this power since their public has allowed it to happen.

As such, they don't deserve any sympathy. They've had revolutions and changes in power in the past. If they're unhappy, it's their responsibility to make changes.

That's a lot of assumptions to make about people living in a society you likely know almost nothing about. You think dictatorial systems have been able to maintain control for decades and even centuries at a time because people just don't have the desire or energy to change them? Try living in a society where you fear saying the wrong thing to friends and family members because you don't know if they are going to report you. Try being those friends and family members and worrying that if the person that said the wrong thing to you gets caught, and you didn't report them, that you will also be severely punished. Try having a state controlled media that only tells you what they want you to hear, that runs the newspapers, that censors the internet and blocks websites that won't adhere to their requirements, that confines you to a bubble where the only information accessible to you is what the system thinks is appropriate or what they make up for you. Try living under a system where the difference between those two things is indistinguishable. The government there executes more people than all other countries combined. The people are raised with a barrage of propaganda fed to them every day. Did you see the people crying on television in North Korea when Kim Jong Il died? Did that look like real sympathy or fearful people doing what they know is expected of them?

Of course the people have numbers on their side but try coordinating a major civil upheaval when all methods of communication are controlled by those you intend to rise up against. The events in the Arab Spring took a major catalyst and many years of repression to occur. Those governments were also nowhere near as strong as the Communist regime in China. You can't break something so complicated down to "If they're unhappy, it's their responsibility to make changes." I imagine it has to be hard to be the first person to stand up when you know that your life is very likely the price you will pay.

I do agree, to a point, with how you started your post. Corporations have more responsibilities than just fattening their shareholders pockets. They are responsible for the workers they employ. Just because the workers are employed indirectly doesn't mean their responsibility is negated. It's just a convenient facade.

[Mord]

Hyper_Eye, on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:33 PM, said:

The hell it isn't. They are a major purchaser of labor and any company providing those services would want that business. If they continue paying a company for labor knowing that the worker conditions are unacceptable it is absolutely on them. It is not only a corporations responsibility to keep costs down. It is their responsibility to maintain a positive brand image. Low costs at the price of supporting slave labor is not acceptable and should severely negatively impact the brand. I hope these stories continue to find their way onto CNN and other major news outlets putting pressure on Microsoft and Apple to do more to solve this problem.

Actually it's their sole responsibility to make profit. They could get sued by their shareholders if they aren't pursuing that for whatever reason.

Now, if americans in general cared enough to take their business elsewhere over things like this, THEN it becomes the corporation's business to look for better plants to make their product. Until then, and we all know that won't happen (For a variety of reasons, and it doesn't matter what company we're talking about), it's not profitable to care about it.

(It'll only negatively affect a brand if the final customer cares about it.)

[Atariboy]

Hyper_Eye, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:59 AM, said:

You think dictatorial systems have been able to maintain control for decades and even centuries at a time because people just don't have the desire or energy to change them?

I never said it wouldn't be without cost. Thousands of lifes were expended to place the current regime in and a major change today would likely have a far higher cost in human life. You'll find that's a common theme throughout history. Educate yourself about the American Revolution, for instance, and you'd find that securing America's freedom resulted in about 50,000 American casualties. Anything good in this life comes at a cost. And when we're talking about something for the betterment of over 1 billion people, the cost is naturally going to be great.

That doesn't change the fact that they're the ones that allowed this regime to gain its power in the first place, that they're the ones responsible for the maintenance of that power over the past 60 years, and that they're the only ones that are going to be able to ever change things. Ultimately, if they're unhappy, the cost, however high, is going to be placed squarely on to the shoulders of the average Chinese.

And that's how it should be. Unless they're willing to make sacrifices to enable widespread change, which I've seen little evidence of from present day China, I fail to see I should be very sympathic. They strike me as a nation that seems fairly content with their current course, no matter how little I and many others in the West think about the direction they've choosen.

Ultimately if they want it, they're going to be the ones that have to pay. Look at the French resistance during WWII. I believe estimates of those that sacrificed their lifes to help free their country during the occupation are over 50,000 with the value of the Resistance being approximately equivalent to the military power of a dozen Army divisions by June 6, 1944.

Perhaps I'm ignorant of comparable examples in present day China, but I'm completely unaware of such a movement on any corresponding scale to that. Ultimately like I was getting at with that earlier post, why should I care more about their welfare than it appears the average person off the street in China does? They seem satisified with the way they're going, especially the ones I've struck up friendships with in the States over the years.

It's their life, not mine. If they want to live it in oppression, censorship, and the lack of fundamentral freedoms enjoyed by most of the Western World, it's their business. If they become unhappy on a large scale in the future and start taking action to rectify what they were responsible for happening, they will get my sympathy and support.

Mord, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:21 AM, said:

Actually it's their sole responsibility to make profit. They could get sued by their shareholders if they aren't pursuing that for whatever reason.

They have responsibilities beyond maximizing their profit. For instance in times gone by with slack environmental laws when a company could dump toxic waste into the environment simply because they could without fear of legal action, they weren't obligated to do so just because it would be directly beneficial to the bottom line.

They have responsibilities to their stakeholders. Maximizing profit within reason for the owners is potentially the most important one of the bunch (Otherwise, you risk the ability for the business to survive and you reduce the incentive for the owners to keep with it), but it isn't the only responsibility that they hold (Although there have been no shortage of examples where those that owned a business made sacrifices with their profit for the good of others).

Edited by Atariboy, Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:51 AM.

[so_tough!]

I made a thread about this earlier this week, http://www.atariage....oxconn-factory/

Let's get down to the facts.

1)Most people don't give a flying fuck about where or who makes the things they buy, aslong as they get them. This is not how it should be.

2) Most multinationals are run by motherf*****s who dont give a shit about their workers as long as they are making money.

3) The media have to play a part in this and expose multinational companies who continue to exploit poorer countries.

It's not just electronics, it's clothing companies aswell. Gap for example, why the hell are Gap tshirts made in Cambodia? Can you guess?

Cheap labour.

These western companies could be creating jobs where they are based, but instead choose to exploit poor countries.

Can it ever be solved? Probably not and it's a very very human problem. For example, you get the job, but other people lose out. You're happy about it, but they are sad.

Oh yeah and people please quit with the communist shit, that's not the problem. The problem is multinationals love to exploit workers in poor countries, shit think about all those companies who have indian call centres.

The whole world is mad, my opinion globalism was always a bad idea. Companies should WANT to manufacture in their own country, the problem is the directors (etc) don't care. They care about one thing, money.

All western companies should stop manufacturing in poor countries. If you visit Africa you will see adverts for coke, for mercedes etc. Doesn't really matter that most people are poor, let's make them want all the crap "we" buy. Let's take our consumer culture over there and make them want it! Why? *more money*!

Edited by so_tough!, Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:44 AM.

[Atariboy]

so_tough!, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:04 AM, said:

Oh yeah and people please quit with the communist shit, that's not the problem. The problem is multinationals love to exploit workers in poor countries, shit think about all those companies who have indian call centres.

I agree with the vast majority of your post except this. Wiping the hands clean for China's leadership for conditions in the country is nonsense. There's plenty of blame to be had and it isn't just the fault of leadership of large multinational corporations for things like this happening.

[so_tough!]

Atariboy, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:29 AM, said:

so_tough!, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:04 AM, said:

Oh yeah and people please quit with the communist shit, that's not the problem. The problem is multinationals love to exploit workers in poor countries, shit think about all those companies who have indian call centres.

I agree with the vast majority of your post except this. Wiping the hands clean for China's leadership for conditions in the country is nonsense. There's plenty of blame to be had and it isn't just the fault of leadership of large multinational corporations for things like this happening.

I'm not excusing goverments, I'm saying there are plenty of other countries where this goes on and it's all about making things for cheaper.