52 replies to this topic

[HuckleCat]

Atariboy, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:26 AM, said:

Profit before people.

It's business 101.

Fixed it for you.

Now, please continue to blame all sides involved.

Just to put into perspective for everyone here, this is where we are talking about:

http://knowyourmeme....ragedy-wang-yue

Yeah.

This is not Microsoft's responsibility, no matter what magical happy candyland you guys think we should live in.

[so_tough!]

I watched a documentary about a factory owner who gave everyone a share of the factory who worked there, it was a small American company. He actually thought the workers were important! Imagine that! He also stated that he didn't see why he needed more than one car. Certainly not a greedy individual, wouldnt it be cool if all company owners thought like that? Oh yeah and the factory workers loved working there , they felt appreciated

It can work like that, if you want it to. IF YOU WANT IT TO.

[HuckleCat]

so_tough!, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:09 AM, said:

I watched a documentary about a factory owner who gave everyone a share of the factory who worked there, it was a small American company. He actually thought the workers were important! Imagine that! He also stated that he didn't see why he needed more than one car. Certainly not a greedy individual, wouldnt it be cool if all company owners thought like that? Oh yeah and the factory workers loved working there , they felt appreciated

It can work like that, if you want it to. IF YOU WANT IT TO.

That's the United States though. Here we have a minimum wage system, as well as labor unions. Here, workers feel safe, and are even protected, telling employers how they feel.

Good story though.

In any case, this thread has become political. If a moderator sees this, this will likely be closed.

[Pixelboy]

I think the subject of labour exploitation is a very convenient way of avoiding the real problem.

Here's an interesting question: Why is the bulk of electronics and other manufactured products not made here in North-America? Or in other words, what makes North-America (US as well as Canada) such a bad option for manufacturing? Ponder this question without using the easy answer of cheaper foreign labour and you'll see what the real problem is.

Really, it's like avoiding seing the elephant in the middle of the room...

[HatefulGravey]

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but this factory also makes many Apple products, the PS3 and Nintendo products as well. This article only mentions the 360, but this place turns out a lot of electronics for a lot of companies. Makes me wonder why Microsoft is the only company on blast here?

[so_tough!]

HatefulGravey, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:40 AM, said:

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but this factory also makes many Apple products, the PS3 and Nintendo products as well. This article only mentions the 360, but this place turns out a lot of electronics for a lot of companies. Makes me wonder why Microsoft is the only company on blast here?

check the link I gave earlier, that article blasts apple in the headline.

http://www.telegraph...nn-factory.html

Edited by so_tough!, Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:35 AM.

[HatefulGravey]

Missed that link. Sorry.

[so_tough!]

HatefulGravey, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:39 AM, said:

Missed that link. Sorry.

no problem

[Atariboy]

HuckleCat, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:57 AM, said:

This is not Microsoft's responsibility, no matter what magical happy candyland you guys think we should live in.

That's certainly not what they would teach you at a business school. I recieved my MBA from one of the top programs in this country and corporate responsibility was a major theme throughout.

I don't subscribe to the thought that profit is the only consideration in business.

[Hyper_Eye]

HuckleCat, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:57 AM, said:

http://knowyourmeme....ragedy-wang-yue

Totally irrelevant. Same crap happens here: http://www.nypost.co...DP5ooudVuEd8fbI

It's called the "Bystander Effect" and it happens in countries all around the world. The cause is often what is called "Diffusion of Responsibility".

It doesn't really reflect anything pertinent to the conversation.

[wood_jl]

As someone else pointed out, this is sort of old news (as in happened many times before) at Foxconn. Most previous actual suicides or attempts were related to production of iPhones (etc) so it's not Microsoft's fault. There's even a Wikipedia page about it.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

They had to install suicide-prevention netting at factories, and make workers sign legally-binding non-suicide pacts.

I don't see how Microsoft can be blamed, since they've done the same thing on deals with Apple. What occurs in another country is obviously the business of that country. If Microsoft offered to pay more for each unit, Foxconn still wouldn't pay the workers more, unless they had to. If they had to, some other sweatshop would have turned in a lower bid to Microsoft (or Apple) for the production of the hardware. Blame Foxconn, China, Communism, whatever.... It would seem that blaming Microsoft (or Apple) is akin to not understanding how markets work.

Edited by wood_jl, Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:10 PM.

[JamesD]

so_tough!, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:04 AM, said:

I made a thread about this earlier this week, http://www.atariage....oxconn-factory/

Let's get down to the facts.

Sure, just let me know when you actually post any facts rather than a "we are the 99%" style diatribe.

Gee, companies aren't supposed to go where it's cheapest to produce their product?

You've clearly never run a business.

How about we put tariffs on all imports in an effort to stop exploitation of those poor workers. And once countries stop importing cheap goods, those poor picked on workers won't have to suffer through that kind of work anymore. They can try to find work somewhere else that pays half as much or be unemployed and watch their children starve to death.


Do you have any idea what the unemployment rate would be in those countries if it weren't for foreign companies?
Do you have any idea of how much the standard of living has increased in those countries because of these factories?
And many of these people make pretty good wages and have better working conditions than they could find anywhere else in their country.
Remember, the people putting together videogame consoles work in a clean, electronics factory.
They aren't 7 year olds stitching together shoes in the streets (those videos were staged by the press btw).

Quote

The problem is multinationals love to exploit workers in poor countries

Ah yes, vilify companies. Companies that seek to produce cheaper products contact representatives of factories in China and have them bid.
There is no emotion involved.
If you want to blame companies, blame investors in those companies.
You know, everyone with a 401K whose retirement depends on the success of those companies.

[so_tough!]

I'm not part of that 99 percent bullshit. Let me tell you my deal, I'm against globalization , western goverments and companies putting their noses in places where they arn't wanted.

I believe every country should take care of itself. The country that concerns me most is the one I live in.

PS-My mum runs a business as do all her brothers.

Edited by so_tough!, Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:51 PM.

[Video]

HuckleCat, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:37 AM, said:

so_tough!, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:09 AM, said:

I watched a documentary about a factory owner who gave everyone a share of the factory who worked there, it was a small American company. He actually thought the workers were important! Imagine that! He also stated that he didn't see why he needed more than one car. Certainly not a greedy individual, wouldnt it be cool if all company owners thought like that? Oh yeah and the factory workers loved working there , they felt appreciated

It can work like that, if you want it to. IF YOU WANT IT TO.

That's the United States though. Here we have a minimum wage system, as well as labor unions. Here, workers feel safe, and are even protected, telling employers how they feel.

Good story though.

In any case, this thread has become political. If a moderator sees this, this will likely be closed.

I don't know which dude exactly he was talking about, but at least one dude who did similar was ford. That was LONG before minimum wage BS and workers rights, even though it was here in the US. And guess what? They did really well, and guess what? they had a high turnout of cheap products that made them boatloads of money too.

Even today, many of the business that do the best, typically are the ones that treat their employees like decent human beings instead of a disposable part of a machine. They typically pay much better too, and guess what? They still churn out cheap products, right here in the US (locally I can think of Wearhouser (sp?) at least till they mearged and Tyson food)

Sure, we still got Mcdonalds and Walmart, who basically pay minimum wage and dont give a damn for the people, just like everywhere, just saying...

[JamesD]

so_tough!, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:50 PM, said:

I'm not part of that 99 percent bullshit. Let me tell you my deal, I'm against globalization , western goverments and companies putting their noses in places where they arn't wanted.

I believe every country should take care of itself. The country that concerns me most is the one I live in.

PS-My mum runs a business as do all her brothers.

Well, your idea might work for a small business, but it's a bit impractical for a product sold worldwide.
Companies would need to manufacture their products in every country they sell them in to fit your business model.
Poor countries would suffer the most because they often don't have the money to buy the products they currently produce.
They would loose both the manufacturing jobs and the products themselves since companies wouldn't sell enough of their product to afford to produce them just for that country.

I am not for exploitation, but I am not against globalization either,
I am for fair trade rather than free trade.
Any country with similar labor, environmental, etc... standards as our own would have zero tariffs.
Countries that don't meet such standards would face a tariff that ratchets up over time if they don't meet similar standards.
This puts pressure on countries to improve conditions for their people and punishes ones that don't.
If the tariffs are ratcheted up slowly, companies and countries have time to adapt.
It also levels the playing field a bit for companies that want to produce products at home rather than exporting labor.

I have no problem with the fact that workers are paid less in other countries as long as they are compensated reasonably for their country.

And back to the original topic...
The Chinese workers are basically threatening to strike and telling the dictators they can't be forced to go back to work without what they want.

[so_tough!]

JamesD, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:41 PM, said:

so_tough!, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:50 PM, said:

I'm not part of that 99 percent bullshit. Let me tell you my deal, I'm against globalization , western goverments and companies putting their noses in places where they arn't wanted.

I believe every country should take care of itself. The country that concerns me most is the one I live in.

PS-My mum runs a business as do all her brothers.

Well, your idea might work for a small business, but it's a bit impractical for a product sold worldwide.
Companies would need to manufacture their products in every country they sell them in to fit your business model.
Poor countries would suffer the most because they often don't have the money to buy the products they currently produce.
They would loose both the manufacturing jobs and the products themselves since companies wouldn't sell enough of their product to afford to produce them just for that country.

I am not for exploitation, but I am not against globalization either,
I am for fair trade rather than free trade.
Any country with similar labor, environmental, etc... standards as our own would have zero tariffs.
Countries that don't meet such standards would face a tariff that ratchets up over time if they don't meet similar standards.
This puts pressure on countries to improve conditions for their people and punishes ones that don't.
If the tariffs are ratcheted up slowly, companies and countries have time to adapt.
It also levels the playing field a bit for companies that want to produce products at home rather than exporting labor.

I have no problem with the fact that workers are paid less in other countries as long as they are compensated reasonably for their country.

And back to the original topic...
The Chinese workers are basically threatening to strike and telling the dictators they can't be forced to go back to work without what they want.

I don't like globalization for many reasons, I won't bother going into that though. In my model American companies make their goods in America, they can export it, but the third world is not a market I would target . I don't care if they lose jobs, that's nothing to do with me. If every country took care of itself, did not interfere with things that are nothing to do with them and was not in huge debt to other countries, the world would be much better.

Money might rule the world, doesn't mean it's right.

[SoulBlazer]

Pixelboy, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:40 AM, said:

I think the subject of labour exploitation is a very convenient way of avoiding the real problem.

Here's an interesting question: Why is the bulk of electronics and other manufactured products not made here in North-America? Or in other words, what makes North-America (US as well as Canada) such a bad option for manufacturing? Ponder this question without using the easy answer of cheaper foreign labour and you'll see what the real problem is.

Really, it's like avoiding seing the elephant in the middle of the room...

Okay, I give up. The only reason I see IS cheaper foregin labor (I'll use the American spelling. ) so that the companies can make more money.

What other reason are you talking about, Pixelboy?

Whatever it is, it's recent cause the mass shift overseas only happened about 15 years ago....

[HuckleCat]

Atariboy, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:56 PM, said:

That's certainly not what they would teach you at a business school. I recieved my MBA from one of the top programs in this country and corporate responsibility was a major theme throughout.

So go back there and cry to them that the real world does not work that way.

(I was taught by a Charlie Brown movie that it's I before E, except after C.)

Go get your money back.

Hyper_Eye, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:06 PM, said:

Totally irrelevant. Same crap happens here

It doesn't really reflect anything pertinent to the conversation.

Well, the video was China, and was an example of complete disregard for human life.

Speaking of "pertinent to the conversation", ever been to New York? Homeless people lay on the sidewalk there all the time. It's what they do. 2-year old children do not. If you are really comparing the 2 as "the same", then you have other things to work on instead of worrying about Microsoft "being nice".


This is going nowhere. You guys are crying because companies are mean, as if you just found out.

You can get upset all you like, but I'm still right.

[Atariboy]

No need to seek a refund since I've witnessed no shortage of evidence that proves it is at the very least partially true.

Run a business with maximizing profit being the only thing you give consideration, and I guarantee you that you won't be in business for any length of time. Take this example, for instance. If these incidents gain more publicity, companies like Microsoft and Apple aren't going to want to deal with them purely for the negative publicity.

When that happens, you have a dead business or at least a very severely wounded one. Corporations are legally seen as a person under our law, and just like any citizen, they have a wide range of responsibilities. Obeying the laws of the nation they're operating under, being good neighbors, etc.

Edited by Atariboy, Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:10 PM.

[HuckleCat]

Atariboy, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:07 PM, said:

No need to seek a refund since I've witnessed no shortage of evidence that proves it is at the very least partially true.

Apple, Electronic Arts, Activision, Gamestop, Microsoft, Disney, and Sony say hi.

Now you're just being ignorant. Claiming that corporations have to obey the same laws that an individual does is rich. Go tell that to Goldman-Sachs and AIG. Go tell Apple that they're in violation of the "good neighbor" law.

You can't possibly be this sheltered.

[Atariboy]

HuckleCat, on Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:04 AM, said:

Atariboy, on Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:07 PM, said:

No need to seek a refund since I've witnessed no shortage of evidence that proves it is at the very least partially true.

Apple, Electronic Arts, Activision, Gamestop, Microsoft, Disney, and Sony say hi.

Now you're just being ignorant. Claiming that corporations have to obey the same laws that an individual does is rich. Go tell that to Goldman-Sachs and AIG. Go tell Apple that they're in violation of the "good neighbor" law.

You can't possibly be this sheltered.

Now you're not even paying any attention to anything I've said.

You can't possibly have such poor reading comprehension.

[ianoid]

Xboxes and iPhones are super awesome at an incredible price. Unfortunately their production is dependent upon exploitation. As is anything we buy from China, including nearly every item at Walmart and Target and nearly every piece of electronics we buy.

We are all willing and sometimes unwitting participants in this exploitation, whether it's Westerners exploiting Chinese or Chinese exploiting Chinese. It is sad.

I'd rather pay more and know I'm not a part of it, but few of us could afford our lifestyles without the imports.



Let me throw in that you should only buy Heavy Sixer 2600s because they only involved the exploitation of Bay Area hippies. Although perhaps there were components sourced in other countries that exploited their workers. I doubt it because at the time electronics were primarily built in Japan, which has not been known for worker exploitation.

Edited by ianoid, Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:06 AM.

[HuckleCat]

Atariboy, on Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:19 AM, said:

You're right, HuckleCat.

I know.

[JamesD]

ianoid, on Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:00 AM, said:

I'd rather pay more and know I'm not a part of it, but few of us could afford our lifestyles without the imports.

Keep telling yourself that or whatever makes you sleep better as you still reap the benefits of cheap imports.
FWIW, if the same products were made in the US, they wouldn't be just a few dollars more, some items would be over twice as expensive.


And frankly, this discussion belongs in the politics section.

[Rex Dart]

Wait wait, was it a tiff or a row?