6 replies to this topic

[spacedueler]

I also posted this under Hardware - but it's really a VCS issue, so I thought I'd try here (hope that's ok)...

I found a potential universal converter for our classic consoles for $15 at a thrift store. It's a Samsung SIR TS360 - Satellite TV receiver / HDTV tuner. Here's a pic of the back panel:


I connected my 2600 to it using the coax input and it works - I got a picture on my 15" VGA LCD monitor!! Then I connected my Atari Flashback2, switched the input to "Video" from the menu (composite input) - nice - it works too.

Here's the problem - it happens with either of the 2 game consoles on both the coax and composit inputs: If I run my combat cartridge, the picture is good:


If I load my Super Breakout cart, here's the picture:


It's the same if I load Super Breakout from the hidden Flashbach 2 menu.

Tested my systems on a standard TV they work fine there. Any thoughts on making this work?

Here's some links on the SIR TS-360:
http://www.satellite...-sir-ts360.html
http://www.satellite...-sir-ts360.html

[FujiSkunk]

Probably not much you can do. My knowledge of television signal formats is limited, but basically all classic game systems in general, and the Atari 2600 in particular, don't output a strictly-to-spec signal. Old TVs didn't care; the analog electronics happily ate whatever was fed to them. Newer digital TVs and digital signal converters care a little more, and if a signal is not to spec, weird things can happen. Some modern TVs and processors are robust or intelligent enough to work around "bad" signals. Others break at the first sign of trouble.

What makes the Atari 2600 a special case is that the game programming has about as much control over the final signal as the console itself; it's the game that decides when one "picture frame" has been completely drawn and it's time to start on the next one. This results in some games having more "picture space" than others, when really they should all have the same amount. That explains why one game (like Combat) can still look okay on more sensitive hardware, while another game (like Super Breakout) turns to mush.

The fact that you're seeing the same thing on multiple consoles confirms it isn't a problem specific to your Atari hardware. About the only thing you can do is try another converter box, or another HDTV or monitor. I realize that may not be a viable option. This is why you should hang on to a good old-fashioned CRT if you plan on playing the old stuff.

Edited by FujiSkunk, Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:02 PM.

[bcombee]

Each individual Atari 2600 game controls the number of scan lines they output, and that determines if a digital converter is going to be able to sync the signal. The Stella emulator has an Alt-L option to show how many lines are being output. The NTSC version of Combat runs at 263 lines, where Super Breakout is running at 262. I suspect that's enough of a difference to mess up the digital sync logic in the SIR TS-360.

I had a LCD TV a few years ago that showed the same problem. It wouldn't display half of the older game consoles I hooked up to it.

I looked at a few other games and saw some at 262, some at 263, some at 261 or 264. There was enough slop with CRT timing for all of those to work, The official NTSC definition has 525 scan lines, split between two fields, so one field has 263 lines, the other has 262 but it's start is delayed half-a-scan line to indicate it's even. The 2600 only generates frames, not fields, so you don't get the interlacing effect that normal NTSC video has.

[spacedueler]

Well that's not the answer I was hoping for but I was suspicious this would be the case. Not a total loss though - It will make a nice HD tuner for off-air television (I'm grabbing 12 HD channels with just some rabbit ears) and it will pick up the NTSC output of my Dishnet duel tuner. Thanks for replying.

[opeygon]

Hey Spacedueler can you show us a pic of the front of your universal converter? I want one of these after reading your post and I spend A TON of time in thrift stores. I would like to be able to spot one easily.

[spacedueler]

opeygon, on Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:44 PM, said:

Hey Spacedueler can you show us a pic of the front of your universal converter? I want one of these after reading your post and I spend A TON of time in thrift stores. I would like to be able to spot one easily.

Google should be quicker:

http://www.google.co...125l125l0.1l1l0

[spacedueler]

opeygon, on Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:44 PM, said:

Hey Spacedueler can you show us a pic of the front of your universal converter? I want one of these after reading your post and I spend A TON of time in thrift stores. I would like to be able to spot one easily.

Be sure to read the links I put in my first post - you need a smart card to get the receiver to work.