22 replies to this topic

[Sean39]

Hi everyone

Found this while searching the web...

What boards can you get to do the 64K memory upgrade in a atari 800 computer.

I know you can buy 48K boards from Best electronics and 32K boards.

So how can I do a 64K up grade in my computer??

Please help


Thanks
Sean

[David_P]

The Atari 800 memory map is different than that of the 800xl, at elat when it comes to banking memory. As I recall, Axlon set the standard for 800 memory upgrades, banking 4K at a time in the window at $C000-$CFFF.

There are plans on the 'net to upgrade a 16K RAM board to 256K, which would give you a total of 288K. I've never tried it, so I can't vouch for it. If you do decide to try, I'd recomend picking up a spare 16K board (or two) from Best or B&C.

[russg]

Sean39, on Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:25 PM, said:

Hi everyone

Found this while searching the web...

What boards can you get to do the 64K memory upgrade in a atari 800 computer.

I know you can buy 48K boards from Best electronics and 32K boards.

So how can I do a 64K up grade in my computer??

Please help


Thanks
Sean

I don't think you can. There's 48K RAM, 10K OS and 8K cart ROMs comes to the 64K. Just there's no RAM 'below' the OS. PORTB also is used for
joysticks 3 and 4, so there isn't the built in BASIC. The 800 will run most games, but misses out on some things like SpartaDOS 3.xx and Turbo BASIC.
The Axlon RAM upgrades give you extra RAM, but I don't think there is much that uses that extra RAM. You can't make an XL/XE out of an 800.
There is some bank switching on the 800, I think for a RAMdisk with the Axlon. ACTION! and Mac65 work on the 800, so it can do those bank switches.
The OS doesn't support the absent PBI or XE extended port, so no MIO or Black Box or other that use PBI.
What do you want to do with the 800 you can't do now with '48K'?

Edited by russg, Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:55 PM.

[SoundGammon]

I've put a 800 OS Rev A into an 800XL, works great, even for Imagic's Demon Attack on cartridge, that only worked on my 800 before. Now I got thinking, can a 800XL OS be put into an 800?

[Sean39]

I have an 130 XE computer also,but I just notice that the Flight simulator that says it requires 48K of ram to run on the EX does run on that computer


Now when I run it on my 800 with 48K of ram it say will not run on Atari 400/800 Memory error.

This is the message that comes up,but also I would just like to have the extra memory there.


Now there was a write up in the back of the book for Fight simulator

That said 48K core memory
16K screen memory) (8K x 2 double buffered)

Not surw what all that means,but I am gusseing it has something to do with the bank memory.

Sean

[Sean39]

SoundGammon, on Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:56 PM, said:

I've put a 800 OS Rev A into an 800XL, works great, even for Imagic's Demon Attack on cartridge, that only worked on my 800 before. Now I got thinking, can a 800XL OS be put into an 800?

Are you talking about the basic language... I have REV C and it works great on my 800 computer.

Thanks
Sean

[sloopy]

russg, on Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:19 PM, said:

Sean39, on Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:25 PM, said:

Hi everyone

Found this while searching the web...

What boards can you get to do the 64K memory upgrade in a atari 800 computer.

I know you can buy 48K boards from Best electronics and 32K boards.

So how can I do a 64K up grade in my computer??

Please help


Thanks
Sean

I don't think you can. There's 48K RAM, 10K OS and 8K cart ROMs comes to the 64K. Just there's no RAM 'below' the OS. PORTB also is used for
joysticks 3 and 4, so there isn't the built in BASIC. The 800 will run most games, but misses out on some things like SpartaDOS 3.xx and Turbo BASIC.
The Axlon RAM upgrades give you extra RAM, but I don't think there is much that uses that extra RAM. You can't make an XL/XE out of an 800.
There is some bank switching on the 800, I think for a RAMdisk with the Axlon. ACTION! and Mac65 work on the 800, so it can do those bank switches.
The OS doesn't support the absent PBI or XE extended port, so no MIO or Black Box or other that use PBI.
What do you want to do with the 800 you can't do now with '48K'?

48K RAM +10K OS +8K CART=66K

what if you put a 16K CART in?
48K RAM +10K OS +16K CART=74K?

this thread needs some logic (new C061618 MMU?)...

a '64k' Atari is more then just putting '64k of ram' in a machine, there are certain assumptions of other things, like there being RAM under the high address range, banking bits on the 6520, etc...

if you want your 800 to run XL/XE software then you may want to wait for Candles 'Incognito' board...

or get an XL or XE...

and yes, BASIC Rev C will work on a 400 or 800...

sloopy.

[sup8pdct]

One thing that does use the extra ram (axalon) is sparta dos 4.x. proly not the new version done recently but the original ICD one does. Bit of a pain to run any sort of programming cart tho.

James

[russg]

sloopy, on Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:19 PM, said:

russg, on Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:19 PM, said:

Sean39, on Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:25 PM, said:

Hi everyone

Found this while searching the web...

What boards can you get to do the 64K memory upgrade in a atari 800 computer.

I know you can buy 48K boards from Best electronics and 32K boards.

So how can I do a 64K up grade in my computer??

Please help


Thanks
Sean

I don't think you can. There's 48K RAM, 10K OS and 8K cart ROMs comes to the 64K. Just there's no RAM 'below' the OS. PORTB also is used for
joysticks 3 and 4, so there isn't the built in BASIC. The 800 will run most games, but misses out on some things like SpartaDOS 3.xx and Turbo BASIC.
The Axlon RAM upgrades give you extra RAM, but I don't think there is much that uses that extra RAM. You can't make an XL/XE out of an 800.
There is some bank switching on the 800, I think for a RAMdisk with the Axlon. ACTION! and Mac65 work on the 800, so it can do those bank switches.
The OS doesn't support the absent PBI or XE extended port, so no MIO or Black Box or other that use PBI.
What do you want to do with the 800 you can't do now with '48K'?

48K RAM +10K OS +8K CART=66K

what if you put a 16K CART in?
48K RAM +10K OS +16K CART=74K?

this thread needs some logic (new C061618 MMU?)...

a '64k' Atari is more then just putting '64k of ram' in a machine, there are certain assumptions of other things, like there being RAM under the high address range, banking bits on the 6520, etc...

if you want your 800 to run XL/XE software then you may want to wait for Candles 'Incognito' board...

or get an XL or XE...

and yes, BASIC Rev C will work on a 400 or 800...

sloopy.

I've never been accused of using logic, I'm more a gut person, so that would be the PIA. Yes, the 800 will use 16K banked carts like ACTION! and Mac65, they are banking into
$B000 to $BFFF, using $D5xx to bank. The 48K goes up to $BFFF. $C000-$CFFF is empty unless has Axlon or other extended memory, I think. And I think the 10K ROM
goes from $D800-$FFFF. He wants to run Flight Simulator on his 800, I guess it uses RAM at $C000 to $CFFF, like Sparta 3.xx. I was trying to cheer him up.
He's talking about 64K memory. That could be RAM and ROM? $D000 to $D7FF is for hardware area, not all are used. The Axlon gives RAM at $C000, so that
may give him Flight Simulator and Sparta 3.xx. ... I checked. Axlon only gives RAMdisks, not extra memory for program use, if I understand.

Edited by russg, Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:24 AM.

[Sean39]

I found an answer how the memory can be upgrade and work.
Now we just need to find the boards,

please read info can be found at http://www.atarimaga...ransplants.html

also try this site full of information on the 800 memory upgrade
http://www.atarimaga...uctreviews.html


800 UPGRADES
The Magna Systems one-megabyte RAMcharger received an excellent review in the July 1987 Antic. The Magna Systems Axlon-compatible upgrades range from 256K to 1Mb and are super-easy to install on an Atari 800. The Magna RAMcharger is actually a self-contained plug-inboard. All you do is take out the two screws holding the top lid covering the factory RAM cards (right behind the cartridge slots). Pull out the middle RAM card and pop in the RAMcharger, making sure it doesn't touch the neighboring cards. Now screw the lid back on and the installation is finished.
I found a few quirks in the RAM-charger's address decoding. The board not only responds to the addresses in Axlon range but also to some zero-page addresses, which might make some programs incompatible. Magna can compensate for this by either defeating the bank selecting with a switch or by installing a jumper wire to the ROM board in slot 1.
If you're an Atari 800 do-it-yourselfer, you can make your own 256K quarter-megabyte upgrade from public domain instructions. I personally did two of these and had no problems with the David Byrd upgrade listed with this article.
I
Personally
made hardware
upgrades on
two XLs and
three
800's

Some users who have built public domain upgrade projects report memory losses because of poor design in the refresh circuits. With the first upgrade I performed, I didn't notice any problems, but I was able to produce memory dropout under certain circumstances. The Byrd upgrade I list did not exhibit any dropout, but it could be that the RAM chips I used have long retention times. In any case, if you build a do-it-yourself upgrade, use the best chips you can find.
MYDOS will configure the 256K upgrades as a 2,000-sector RAMdisk and can recognize a full megabyte on the 800. These upgrades are fully Axlon-compatible and will give you an edge on any program that recognizes Axlon RAM. The problem is that few software products are doing so. For example, Springboard's Newsroom and BASIC XE from ICD/OSS only work on an XL/XE.
Nevertheless, adding Axlon RAM makes your 800 compatible with Print Shop Companion, and SynFile + will boot with 288K of free RAM. By contrast, you only get 128K on XE and XL upgrades. For this reason alone, I doubt that I'll ever get rid of my upgraded 800.


Other infomation on this can be found at

http://www.atarimaga...ransplants.html


Same try this site also
http://www.atarimaga...uctreviews.html


Thanks Sean

Edited by Sean39, Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:07 AM.

[BillC]

The a8maestro website has info on DIY RAM upgrades for most Atari 8-bit models, including "The WindHover Atari 400 SuperRam Modification" and "The WindHover 288K SuperRam Modification For The Atari 800". This following webpage not only has the text, but also has the illustrations separately, which are missing from most versions available on the web.

http://atari.a8maest...ball/ballhc.htm

Bill

[sup8pdct]

Super products (8 bit stuff only) which I now own Did a 64K upgrade for the 800. It was a piggy back board that plugged into the rom board. It has 2 8k static ram chips, a 32K eprom for 2 versions of revB roms plus supermon and several LS chips to handle logic and emulating A single line on PIA chip. It worked well except for programs that expected XL roms.
The 2 versions of rom was normal and one slightly modded in the PIA init routine so extra ram wasn't selected. It came with 2 switches, Xl emulation on/off, supermon on/off.
I once modded an XL rom to add in the extra 4 paddles, extra 2 joysticks and modded the reset routine to work for 800 hardware. Sent one to Mike of FTE. never heard a thing since.
Superram a Axalon compatiable ramdisk (also piggyback) was also made for the middle ram slot and it included a single wire to be soldered to the rom board. With a switch (4way) and the the xl emulator board and some more work with soldering iron, the 800 could emulate an XE without the separate antic switching. Not bad for mid to late 80's stuff.

James

[Gunstar]

But do any of these 800 Axlon compatible ram upgrades allow standard 64K XL/XE programs to work? I always thought the problem with 800 memory upgrades was that the base memory was still 48K, instead of 64K like XL/XE's. So 800's with extended ram worked with programs written to make use of them. but the computer still only saw 48K at a time no matter how many banks it has of extended memory, where with XL/XE's the computer only see 64K at a time no matter how many banks it has of extended memory.

Until recenly, it was impossible to allow the 800 to see 64K at a time as far as I knew, until some people here started making upgrades that basically turn the 800 into an XE.

So you can put an AXLON compatible board in the 800 of any memory size upto a megabyte, but it won't run 64K software.

Edited by Gunstar, Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:59 PM.

[Sean39]

Hi Gunstar

That what I want to know also. If you have all this memory and you cannot run simple 64K program what have we gained?

The Flight simulator used the 48K core memoery but also looks for 16K of screen memory.

I am guessing the Flight simulator on Cartridge will run ok on an 800XL ,but even if you manage to get a meg of ram in the 800 that
Flight simulator cart may not run.

Sean

[Gunstar]

I think the original disk based version of Flight Simulator II works fine on a 48K 800.

[sloopy]

When you see software for the Atari say it needs an 'Atari with 64k', it doesnt literally mean 64k, It makes certain assumptions about what an Atari with 64k is... i.e. has RAM under the OS, etc...

This is the issue you are running into, and when you see some later software that says Requires Atari with Banked or Extended RAM, this also can mean a 130XE style banking instead of an Axlon style banking...

Sorta like the old days of PC's where you had Extended and Expanded RAM...

sloopy.

[Gunstar]

Right, so the program could actually be, say purely an out of blue example, 40-50K of actual data, but if it's using the ram under the OS, then it will only run on an XL/XE computer that has ram under the OS.

By the way, there's something I never really thought about much until recently, so I never really questioned it, but...what does is actually mean "under the OS" is this memory that is on the OS chip, or is it all about the memory mapping and the 16K memory under the OS is still part of the ram chips? I mean if the 800 only has 48K, then isn't the first 16K of that 48K "under the OS" anyway? Is there some kind of "memory hole" the the 800 skips over?
I think it's just the term "under" is confusing to me, maybe there's another way to say it?

Should I just get a copy of "mapping the Atari" and shut up?

Edited by Gunstar, Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:10 PM.

[Sean39]

Ok I am going to post atari 400 and 800 memory map this way everyone can see how these computers are set up.

Sean

[Sean39]

Hi Gunstar

Here is a copy of the memory map for the 400 and 800. I also have it for the XE computer.






I hope this helps out some.


Sean

Edited by Sean39, Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:48 PM.

[sup8pdct]

Is ok to ask. The 6502 is a processor that requires everything to be in a single address space ie somewhere between location 0 and 65535 or $0 and $FFFF in hex.
The os ROM starts at $C000, continues to $CFFF, $D000 to $D7FF is hardware chip area which is always available. $D800 to $FFFF is also rom.
The MMU when instructed will switch access from the rom to ram that mirrors the same address space hence the term behind. Note that 2K of ram will never be accessed due to hardware chip area.

James

[sloopy]

Gunstar, on Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:54 PM, said:

Right, so the program could actually be, say purely an out of blue example, 40-50K of actual data, but if it's using the ram under the OS, then it will only run on an XL/XE computer that has ram under the OS. By the way, there's something I never really thought about much until recently, so I never really questioned it, but...what does is actually mean "under the OS" is this memory that is on the OS chip, or is it all about the memory mapping and the 16K memory under the OS is still part of the ram chips? I mean if the 800 only has 48K, then isn't the first 16K of that 48K "under the OS" anyway? Is there some kind of "memory hole" the the 800 skips over? I think it's just the term "under" is confusing to me, maybe there's another way to say it? Should I just get a copy of "mapping the Atari" and shut up?

Basically the areas where the OS ROM are in the $C000-$FFFF area, can be switched with PortB bit0... so you can enable the OS ROM (default) or the RAM...

so 'under' is a term to describe it being able to access it via a bit flip on PortB...

sloopy.

[ClausB]

Here's how I modified my 800 for 64K in 1983:
http://www.atariage....-64k-atari-800/

It does not use PortB but it could be made to.

Edited by ClausB, Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:18 AM.

[Sean39]

Hi ClausB

I read your thread and that was some pretty cool stuff you did.

Sean