20 replies to this topic

[stephena]

OK, I'm trying to gauge how Stella is being used across operating systems, since keeping builds available for many systems is getting harder and harder as time goes by. Please complete the poll to let me know how to best focus my efforts in the future.

[Ransom]

Mac OS X 10.5 PPC, but just until the next iteration of Macbook Pros comes out...

[Mirage]

I can certainly see eliminating builds for some of the older OS X versions (or older Windows versions). I voted both OS X 10.6 and 10.7 due to 2 machines, but as soon as I hear that they've fixed the but that makes Lion sometimes not work on my version of MacBook Pro, it will be 10.7 as well.

[stephena]

I'm trying really hard to keep OSX PPC around (I have a nice G5 PowerMac in my office), but it's getting harder and harder. One, Apple keeps dropping older systems from Xcode (so eventually I'll need separate installs of Xcode, maybe even installed on separate systems entirely). That one is doable, if extremely irritating. Two, the bigger problem is when I move to SDL2, which (as of right now at least) won't support PPC at all. And that one can't be worked around. Once the source code changes to support SDL2, it won't be compatible with SDL1.2 anymore, and that's effectively the end of PPC support (unless SDL2 does end up supporting PPC).

For Windows, I suspect pre-WinXP will be dropped for similar SDL2-related reasons.

Linux 32 and 64-bit will be there forever; if only all the other build systems were as easy to maintain.

For the OSX end of things, my new 2012 Macbook Air development system (sometime in the next few months more than likely) will determine what will happen. If I can get Xcode 4 in OSX 10.7 to build Intel binaries for 10.5-10.7, and the G5 to build PPC/Intel 32-bit for 10.3-10.4, then it will be fine for now. Otherwise the PPC builds will probably have to go. And once I eventually move to SDL2, the PPC builds will probably have to go anyway.

[FujiSkunk]

My emulator gaming computer continues to be a Win2K box, but only because I'm too lazy to set up on another system everything I have there. One of these days I'll buy a new video card for my WinXP box and use that as an excuse to move the game library over to that system.

(Wouldn't the on-board video on a three-year-old system be more than enough for a bunch of emulators and Win98-era games?)

You be quiet.

I also have a few linux boxes I run emulators on now and then, but understandably that's less of a compatibility concern.

Edited by FujiSkunk, Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:31 PM.

[thegoldenband]

stephena, on Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:04 PM, said:

I'm trying really hard to keep OSX PPC around (I have a nice G5 PowerMac in my office), but it's getting harder and harder. One, Apple keeps dropping older systems from Xcode (so eventually I'll need separate installs of Xcode, maybe even installed on separate systems entirely).

Yeah, it looks like XCode 3.2.5 was the last version to officially support PPC, though 3.2.6 can be made to build PPC binaries with a couple tweaks. I've spent some time figuring out how to build apps in XCode recently, and found myself in the quirky position of having to boot into Leopard to build an app I can use in Tiger (since XCode 3.x is Leopard-only).

stephena, on Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:04 PM, said:

Two, the bigger problem is when I move to SDL2, which (as of right now at least) won't support PPC at all. And that one can't be worked around. Once the source code changes to support SDL2, it won't be compatible with SDL1.2 anymore, and that's effectively the end of PPC support (unless SDL2 does end up supporting PPC).

Understood, and I doubt SDL2 will ever be supported on PPC so that'll be the end of the line. Really, it won't be a huge tragedy if PPC has to be left behind, since Stella as it now stands is a great emulator -- but is there any chance of future TIA fixes getting backported? That's really the main thing that concerns me, personally, though support for new bankswitching schemes and boards would also be nice.

Basically I don't want to find myself in the position of being unable to play new homebrew ROM releases, since I went through that in the early 2000s before I went to OS X and it was a drag. But your time and energy are a limited resource, of course, and you've already done so much for all of us.

(To forestall any "lol yr computer is ancient you should upgrade" comment from other posters: I expect to stay on PPC for at least another year or two, since I really have no reason to move to an Intel Mac since I'd have to repurchase half of the audio applications I own, with no significant gain in functionality. My computer does everything I need it to do, so why would I want to buy a new machine? But Apple has deliberately cut the legs out from under PPC, even for developers who want to keep supporting the platform, so...)

[stephena]

thegoldenband, on Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:44 PM, said:

(To forestall any "lol yr computer is ancient you should upgrade" comment from other posters: I expect to stay on PPC for at least another year or two, since I really have no reason to move to an Intel Mac since I'd have to repurchase half of the audio applications I own, with no significant gain in functionality. My computer does everything I need it to do, so why would I want to buy a new machine? But Apple has deliberately cut the legs out from under PPC, even for developers who want to keep supporting the platform, so...)

What are you running specifically (10.4 or 10.5)? I should have had the poll more clearly differentiate between those. I may be able to get Xcode 3.x set up the G5 I have here. If I can get it building PPC/Intel 32-bit for 10.4 and 10.5, then that will be fine. I can then concentrate on migrating to Xcode 4 and OSX 10.7 for all the other builds.

However, I may only be able to get the G5 to build for 10.5, and have to leave 10.4 behind. Hence my reasoning for asking what specific version you're using.

And to anyone who reported using PPC, please add a note here specifying exactly which system. It would be nice if everyone used 10.5 in this case ...

[Emehr]

stephena, on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:01 AM, said:

And to anyone who reported using PPC, please add a note here specifying exactly which system. It would be nice if everyone used 10.5 in this case ...

I have a PPC Mac that dual-boots 10.4 and 10.5 but I mainly run it in 10.4 since Classic support was sent to its grave in Leopard. I also have Intel Macs that dual-boot 10.6 and 10.7 so I'm covered no matter which way you go here. I'm not completely sold on 10.7, though, so I don't run it much. I have a few PPC apps that were hamstrung by that upgrade.

[stephena]

Some potential good news for OSX users. I just spoke to the SDL maintainers, and they say there's a good chance that SDL2 will support PPC. Well, their exact words were "we don't do anything to break PPC support". So while it's not exactly a ringing endorsement, at least it's not being actively removed. As long as it's kept in the mainline release, Stella can support it. However, once I have to start compiling SDL libraries specifically for Stella, it indicates the time has come to move on.

So if I can get my G5 set up (and SDL stays compatible), I should be able to do 10.4/10.5 PPC builds for the foreseeable future.

[ClassicGMR]

Oops... I meant to check off Windows 7 64-bit not 32-bit. Also if you want more specific numbers I am running on 2 Win7 64-bit and 3 WinXP systems(yes I keep it on all 5 because it's ... what ... 20 MB?)

[stephena]

ClassicGMR, on Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:27 AM, said:

Oops... I meant to check off Windows 7 64-bit not 32-bit. Also if you want more specific numbers I am running on 2 Win7 64-bit and 3 WinXP systems(yes I keep it on all 5 because it's ... what ... 20 MB?)

I don't know why I differentiated between Vista and 7 and 32/64-bit. From my POV, those are all the same thing anyway. Really, the breakdown is before WinXP, and WinXP and later, because in those two cases I need to build with different versions of Visual Studio. In any event, it's nice to see the 64-bit numbers on the rise.

[thegoldenband]

stephena, on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:01 AM, said:

What are you running specifically (10.4 or 10.5)?

I've got a PowerBook G4/1.67GHz capable of booting either one, but I use 10.4 almost exclusively since I find that it's faster and, like Emehr, I want access to Classic apps.

stephena, on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:01 AM, said:

I may be able to get Xcode 3.x set up the G5 I have here. If I can get it building PPC/Intel 32-bit for 10.4 and 10.5, then that will be fine.

Excellent! BTW I'm absolutely sure you know this, but just to clarify my earlier post for anyone who doesn't, Xcode 3.x is Leopard-only but can build Tiger apps (at least up to 3.2.5 or 3.2.6). Like I said earlier, this put me in the slightly weird position of having to boot into a different version of the OS in order to build the app I wanted to run in Tiger.

stephena, on Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:21 AM, said:

Some potential good news for OSX users. I just spoke to the SDL maintainers, and they say there's a good chance that SDL2 will support PPC. Well, their exact words were "we don't do anything to break PPC support". So while it's not exactly a ringing endorsement, at least it's not being actively removed. As long as it's kept in the mainline release, Stella can support it.

Once again, excellent! And I have to confess to having a bit of a brain cramp here: when I posted earlier about SDL2 dropping PPC, I was confusing the SDL issue with the OpenGL issue. As I posted elsewhere, PPC Macs essentially top out at OpenGL 1.5, with limited support for 2.0 under Leopard. (If memory serves, my own machine only has software rendering for OpenGL 2.0, but I don't remember whether G5 towers could do hardware rendering with the right card. Unfortunately, Apple has pulled the handy page I linked, and it's only partially archived on Archive.org.)

[stephena]

thegoldenband, on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:51 AM, said:

Excellent! BTW I'm absolutely sure you know this, but just to clarify my earlier post for anyone who doesn't, Xcode 3.x is Leopard-only but can build Tiger apps (at least up to 3.2.5 or 3.2.6). Like I said earlier, this put me in the slightly weird position of having to boot into a different version of the OS in order to build the app I wanted to run in Tiger.

Yes, I'm probably going to set up the G5 the same way (dual-boot 10.4 and 10.5). I just need to find time to do it, not to mention actually integrate the system into my office at work (which is already a mini-LAN )

Quote

Once again, excellent! And I have to confess to having a bit of a brain cramp here: when I posted earlier about SDL2 dropping PPC, I was confusing the SDL issue with the OpenGL issue. As I posted elsewhere, PPC Macs essentially top out at OpenGL 1.5, with limited support for 2.0 under Leopard. (If memory serves, my own machine only has software rendering for OpenGL 2.0, but I don't remember whether G5 towers could do hardware rendering with the right card. Unfortunately, Apple has pulled the handy page I linked, and it's only partially archived on Archive.org.)

All future versions of Stella won't require anything beyond OpenGL 1.4 or so. I'm trying to optimize for OpenGLES/ES2, which is in many ways even more restricted than OpenGL 1.5. So if it works there, it should work on your machine with no problems.

The upcoming graphics filters won't be using much OpenGL stuff at all. But if they don't work, then it might be the price you have to pay. I can probably keep Stella running on PPC systems, but I can't guarantee every advanced feature will be available.

[akator]

As much as I love my G4 iMac and 10.4, I knew the PPC was dead the moment Apple announced the transtition to Intel. I suspect most PPC users are reasonable enough not to expect continued software development for an architecture that Apple officially abandoned in 2006 and stopped supporting in 2009.

Losing you as one of the few remaining PPC developers makes me a little sad, but the nails were in the PPC coffin long ago. Ceasing Stella PPC development isn't even hammering a coffin nail, it's trimming the grass that has already grown tall over the grave. After all, the last of the PPC Macs was discontinued over 5 years ago.

I suspect that most people are like our household and have moved on. I use W7 64-bit and Ubuntu for my work. My wife uses an Ubuntu laptop, a MacBook Pro, and an iPad. We both use W7 64-bit for emulation and the HTPC.

I think you should give yourself a cutoff date/goal for PPC support, announce the final PPC release when you're ready, and move on.

(On a side note, I'd love to see Stella running on a Raspberry Pi... maybe it could even fit into an original 2600 cart case... )

Edited by akator, Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 AM.

[SpiceWare]

weird - I voted yesterday but today it doesn't think I did...

[stephena]

akator, on Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:04 AM, said:

Losing you as one of the few remaining PPC developers makes me a little sad, but the nails were in the PPC coffin long ago. Ceasing Stella PPC development isn't even hammering a coffin nail, it's trimming the grass that has already grown tall over the grave. After all, the last of the PPC Macs was discontinued over 5 years ago.

Well, we're not quite there yet. The rest of the Stella 3.x line will work, and if SDL2 supports PPC, then some 4.x versions may work too. I suspect the next major release of OSX (10.8 ) will completely kill it, though.

Quote

(On a side note, I'd love to see Stella running on a Raspberry Pi... maybe it could even fit into an original 2600 cart case... )

I'll be getting one when I get a chance, so there's definitely a chance Stella will make an appearance.

[Buzbard]

Better grab hold of something solid!

http://windows.micro...ndows-8/preview

[Stephen]

Both machines I have it on run Windows 7 64-bit.

[Wickeycolumbus]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, will you be keeping older builds up for download after support for the platform has been dropped?

[stephena]

All older releases are available from the Stella Downloads page under Miscellaneous / Extras -> Sourceforge project page. You'll see that it goes back to 1.2!

Current status is that nothing will happen in the 3.x line, which is basically until the end of this year. After that, I can almost guarantee that pre-WinXP will be dropped. Already I have a report of 3.5.5 not working in Windows 98 because of included SDL.dll wasn't built for Win98. So for the 4.x line, for Windows, XP SP2 (or so) will be the minimum version. For OSX, I now have both a PPC G5 (with 10.4 and 10.5) and an Intel iMac (with 10.7) installed in my office, so unless something really weird happens, I should be able to support OSX back to 10.4. For Linux, the source is there, so it will work pretty much everywhere

[NinjaWarrior]

I use Win 7 32-bit for Stella on my Laptop