57 replies to this topic

[chrislynn5]

I have a hard time believing that Mr Do! was released by Parker Brothers as a cartridge in only Canada. Atarimania has it listed as a disk, then for Canada a cartridge. The cartridge clearly looks homegrown, Parker brothers wouldn't put out a label without their name, etc on it. The instructions appear to be from the Disk version, hence the canadian portion.

http://www.atarimani...astle_3569.html (the cart in this picture has a label clearly not from Parker Brothers).

My guess is someone pillaged a PB cartridge, added a label, and switched out the chip/board.


Can someone please confirm this, thanx!

Edited by chrislynn5, Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:52 PM.

[Almost Rice]

yep, thats the correct label

probably has something to do with licensing and type of media licensed and for which country. Cheap label may be to reduce costs for a Canada run.

Edited by Almost Rice, Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:51 PM.

[chrislynn5]

Ok, not to discount your statement but where is the evidence that this label, and cartridge, was produced by Parker Brothers?
Who here has this cartridge? Have you opened it to see?

Please provide a link, etc. Thanx!

[www.atarimania.com]

Would Parker Brothers have been stupid enough to provide specific instructions for the Atari computers stating "insert the cartridge" if none actually existed?

Also, the manual for the disk version sold in the US is completely different from the Canadian release.

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

[chrislynn5]

What? I can make a cart and slap a label on it and print up some very nice production looking instructions. Does that make it a mfg cart, no.
It should be easy then to find anything on this from Parker Brothers.

As an engineer, I find it hard to believe that they decided to create an 8-bit cart, just for Canada, and slap an avery label on it. Just because they wanted to save a buck. Not to mention, no copyright info, etc which is required.
Where's the packaging?
All I'm asking for is more than a cart picture. It could be a prototype, or sample. How many are out there? But it doesn't look like production ready.

[Rybags]

It's totally feasible.

Just look at the drastic drop in quality of label, cart shell and instruction books from 1980 vs Tramiel era by Atari.

[qix_maniac]

I believe Espial for Atari 8-bit is real but I've never seen it boxed or even a recent picture of the cartridge. I actually asked everyone on AA last year if they had it and post a picture and no one ever came up with the goods ...but I believe its real, well kinda :-)

Edited by qix_maniac, Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:55 PM.

[chrislynn5]

Espial is real, another user had it and sold it.
Picture here:
http://www.pitfalljo...om/0800-med.htm

I think one of the founders of AtariAge had a copy.

But back to Mr. Do!.
A cart released only in Canada, with an avery label. There were many carts left "almost" complete that never made it to distribution. With manuals, etc.

Edited by chrislynn5, Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:45 PM.

[bbking67]

In Canada Atari 8 bit cartridges were sold by Consumers Distributing, a coast-to-coast catalog/showroom. I worked there at the time and Consumers sold the Parker Brothers cartridges. Consumers printed a catalog well in advance of availability, so occasionally they would print a game title in the catalog that never showed up or was discontinued. If someone has the Consumers catalog from the mid-eighties, they might be able to find that game... I suppose it's not absolute proof of its existence.

Also, I bought some ColecoVision carts from Sears via mail order that came in plain white boxes and weird looking manuals but regular cartridges...

[chrislynn5]

Thanx for the info. I was also thinking that to distribute anything commerically in Canada (I believe in most prov's) you must provide both English and French. That is true today, and I believe the law was enforced before the 80's. So that makes me think that Parker Brothers had planned on making the cart for US and Canadian distribution. But I still think PB would not have let it go without a proper label. They had the dies and tooling. They had the artwork. It wouldn't have cost them much, if anything.

Unless the cart(s) were left as prototypes. Or someone cracked open a case and updated it with a Mr Do chip.

I think the 2600 version released in Canada, the label was only in French. Maybe there was a 5200 version or something released and someone ported it. The Canada version would have been NTSC, so other than adding French to the packaging, labels, etc the carts would have been indentical. Or they would have just used someone else in Canada to handle distribution, materials, etc.

Atarimania shows limited information regarding PB Canada. And only three releases, with only one with production materials (Frogger II)?????

Edited by chrislynn5, Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:47 PM.

[bbking67]

I think there were more rleases than that. I have a couple that I bought back then, and I remember selling various PB titles. In those days the package was often English only in English speaking provinces occsionally with a french or bilingual manual inserted--the cartridge label did not have to reflect french at all and I don't think the boxes did either.

Edited by bbking67, Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:40 PM.

[orpheuswaking]

I would believe it's real... I've seen generic labels released by major companies before, for example my copy of "The Designers Pencil" has a paper label

http://orph.atarinet...?g2_itemId=3308

whereas almost everyone else I know has this copy

[tep392]

I thinks it's a real cart. Here's my reasoning.

The game runs out of 8k of rom at 0xa000 - 0xbfff and only uses the first 16k of ram. Clearly designed for a 16k machine. It's very unlikely that the disk version would have been built to run at 0xa000, thus requiring 48k machines to run. If this is a correct assumption, the person who made this cart would have to have disassembled the disk version and re-assembled it to run at 0xa000, which is not a trivial task. Why would someone go to all that trouble to make a cart? Would be easier to make a cart that copies itself to ram, as the disk version would have, without going through the whole disassembly/assembly process.

Labels get damaged all the time. Do we know it's the original label.

Edited by tep392, Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:42 PM.

[chrislynn5]

orpheuswaking, on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:30 PM, said:

I would believe it's real... I've seen generic labels released by major companies before, for example my copy of "The Designers Pencil" has a paper label

http://orph.atarinet...?g2_itemId=3308

whereas almost everyone else I know has this copy

140.jpg

What makes you think your Designer's Pencil label is real? Unless the box was sealed (which could have been resealed, or re-shrink wrapped), the label appears to be a remake. Activision didn't release any plain white labels on their commerical carts. I have two boxed and one loose. Unless their quality control was so poor that a line worker changed one out for giggles Or a prototype sample, etc.

Edited by chrislynn5, Wed Feb 1, 2012 7:03 AM.

[chrislynn5]

tep392, on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:40 PM, said:

I thinks it's a real cart. Here's my reasoning.

The game runs out of 8k of rom at 0xa000 - 0xbfff and only uses the first 16k of ram. Clearly designed for a 16k machine. It's very unlikely that the disk version would have been built to run at 0xa000, thus requiring 48k machines to run. If this is a correct assumption, the person who made this cart would have to have disassembled the disk version and re-assembled it to run at 0xa000, which is not a trivial task. Why would someone go to all that trouble to make a cart? Would be easier to make a cart that copies itself to ram, as the disk version would have, without going through the whole disassembly/assembly process.

Labels get damaged all the time. Do we know it's the original label.

Maybe the label is wrong? But also, I was thinking that this was done by PB but as a prototype that just got out. I believe that we are discussing this over just one cart. That there are no others.

Edited by chrislynn5, Wed Feb 1, 2012 7:02 AM.

[sloopy]

chrislynn5, on Wed Feb 1, 2012 6:59 AM, said:

orpheuswaking, on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:30 PM, said:

I would believe it's real... I've seen generic labels released by major companies before, for example my copy of "The Designers Pencil" has a paper label

http://orph.atarinet...?g2_itemId=3308

whereas almost everyone else I know has this copy

140.jpg

What makes you think your Designer's Pencil label is real? Unless the box was sealed (which could have been resealed, or re-shrink wrapped), the label appears to be a remake. Activision didn't release any plain white labels on their commerical carts. I have two boxed and one loose. Unless their quality control was so poor that a line worker changed one out for giggles Or a prototype sample, etc.

I have seen several Designer's Pencil carts go through ebay and other places, all had that 'ghetto' label on them...

The Mr. Do! cart could go either way... I have seen stranger things... I have 3 Master Type carts, all different, two actually have the label on the back side of where the the smooth part where a label normally goes, and the cart goes in backwards... But then its also possible the label is a 'reprint', as PB carts seem to have issues with acti-plaque also...

sloopy.

[www.atarimania.com]

There were multiple cartridges of Mr. Do!'s Castle found over the years, not just one. All were from Canada and came with that label. The instructions are clearly from that country, specific to the Atari release and state that you should "place the cartridge firmly in the slot". What more do you need?

It seems all Designer's Pencil cartridges sold in the UK came with that horrible label.

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

[chrislynn5]

Need?
Arguments:

• The instructions were in English to. We've discussed that Canadian releases were the same typically with inserts (for French) as needed. This makes sense and is cost affective.
  
• Time hasn’t been good to a lot of these cartridges, especially the labels. When they come off they get home made labels.
  
• Why would PB release this title, in an only Canada distribution? Isn’t US market much higher in sales, this title was in demand (see all the platform variations), and was NTSC.
  
• Prototypes or pre-distribution carts typically get mocked-up labels.
  
• There seems to be only one picture in existence. Please prove me incorrect by posting more.
  
• Literature, outside of the manual, documenting the existence?
  
• Many of us have performed, or know someone that has, the creation of a one-off cart.
  
• Why does Atarimania watermark the images? Because they are newly taken? Policy, the other images don’t have them.

Why this is important, this determines rarity. How many were produced? Was it commercially available?

[chrislynn5]

There was at one time discussions around an unofficial "port" of Mr. Do! for 8-bit Atari computers called "Mr. Dig" (I believe).

[Defender II]

chrislynn5, on Wed Feb 1, 2012 10:20 AM, said:

Need?
Arguments:

• The instructions were in English to. We've discussed that Canadian releases were the same typically with inserts (for French) as needed. This makes sense and is cost affective.
  
• Time hasn’t been good to a lot of these cartridges, especially the labels. When they come off they get home made labels.
  
• Why would PB release this title, in an only Canada distribution? Isn’t US market much higher in sales, this title was in demand (see all the platform variations), and was NTSC.
  
• Prototypes or pre-distribution carts typically get mocked-up labels.
  
• There seems to be only one picture in existence. Please prove me incorrect by posting more.
  
• Literature, outside of the manual, documenting the existence?
  
• Many of us have performed, or know someone that has, the creation of a one-off cart.
  
• Why does Atarimania watermark the images? Because they are newly taken? Policy, the other images don’t have them.

Why this is important, this determines rarity. How many were produced? Was it commercially available?

Many companies dumped their carts wherever they could during the crash and in whatever condition they were in. I have a case of carts from Atari's assembly line that was to be shipped to the packing plant to be individually boxed.

As far as prototype labels having mock-ups, that is true for a few that are sent for advertising photos and the one on this cart is not what they would have sent for advertising, it is too plain. Most prototypes just have typed labels and these carts have a finely printed clear picture.

There are more pictures, several have been on eBay in variuous states of wear and tear. There are more if you look.

There is an AA member who has the cartridge and box. Besides the picture, PARKER BROTHERS, and Mr. Do!'s Castle, the box clearly says "CARTOUCHE POUR LES ORDIATEURS DOMETIQUES ATARI" "Under License from Universal USA, Inc," "Sous license de Universal USA, Inc." The box is slightly smaller than the standard Parker Brothers box, but other than that looks normal with normal shelf wear. Anyone wanting to fake a box would have at least made it the same size as the other boxes. The printing on it is clear and box materials appear genuine. I will let the owner identify themselves if they wish and then you can accuse them of having a fake. I have a genuine prototype and it has an EPROM, the released carts weight less, so they must have a masked ROM or those chips with EPOXY blobs over them. They could have made a run of evaluation carts with that label and when the market crashed just boxed them and sold them off in Canada. The Delta Drawing Cartridge with the white label is also genuine.

Atarimania watermarks their pictures because people steal them and use them on eBay and other sites. They have had many prototypes come through their site and I am confident they can tell the difference between a prototype, a released cart, and a repro. I have many genuine, protos, samples, demos, and repros I believe it is a real release. I would defer to Tempest on the final word.

Edited by Defender II, Wed Feb 1, 2012 12:28 PM.

[chrislynn5]

Defender II, on Wed Feb 1, 2012 12:04 PM, said:

chrislynn5, on Wed Feb 1, 2012 10:20 AM, said:

Need?
Arguments:

• The instructions were in English to. We've discussed that Canadian releases were the same typically with inserts (for French) as needed. This makes sense and is cost affective.
  
• Time hasn’t been good to a lot of these cartridges, especially the labels. When they come off they get home made labels.
  
• Why would PB release this title, in an only Canada distribution? Isn’t US market much higher in sales, this title was in demand (see all the platform variations), and was NTSC.
  
• Prototypes or pre-distribution carts typically get mocked-up labels.
  
• There seems to be only one picture in existence. Please prove me incorrect by posting more.
  
• Literature, outside of the manual, documenting the existence?
  
• Many of us have performed, or know someone that has, the creation of a one-off cart.
  
• Why does Atarimania watermark the images? Because they are newly taken? Policy, the other images don’t have them.

Why this is important, this determines rarity. How many were produced? Was it commercially available?

Many companies dumped their carts wherever they could during the crash and in whatever condition they were in. I have a case of carts from Atari's assembly line that was to be shipped to the packing plant to be individually boxed.

As far as prototype labels having mock-ups, that is true for a few that are sent for advertising photos and the one on this cart is not what they would have sent for advertising, it is too plain. Most prototypes just have typed labels and these carts have a finely printed clear picture.

There are more pictures, several have been on eBay in variuous states of wear and tear. There are more if you look.

There is an AA member who has the cartridge and box. Besides the picture, PARKER BROTHERS, and Mr. Do!'s Castle, the box clearly says "CARTOUCHE POUR LES ORDIATEURS DOMETIQUES ATARI" "Under License from Universal USA, Inc," "Sous license de Universal USA, Inc." The box is slightly smaller than the standard Parker Brothers box, but other than that looks normal with normal shelf wear. Anyone wanting to fake a box would have at least made it the same size as the other boxes. The printing on it is clear and box materials appear genuine. I will let the owner identify themselves if they wish and then you can accuse them of having a fake. I have a genuine prototype and it has an EPROM, the released carts weight less, so they must have a masked ROM or those chips with EPOXY blobs over them. They could have made a run of evaluation carts with that label and when the market crashed just boxed them and sold them off in Canada. The Delta Drawing Cartridge with the white label is also genuine.

Atarimania watermarks their pictures because people steal them and use them on eBay and other sites. They have had many prototypes come through their site and I am confident they can tell the difference between a prototype, a released cart, and a repro. I have many genuine, protos, samples, demos, and repros I believe it is a real release. I would defer to Tempest on the final word.

I appreciate your comments, but Atarimania has only the cart and manual for pics, so I've never seen this "box" you speak of. Can we get a picture? You speak of eBay, I haven't seen one? Google searches yield nothing?

The difference is should this be a 10 on Atarimania and listed as a proto/short run , with only a handful made (i.e. 1-3). Or is it a legit production run (i.e. hundreds) with many carts out there in the population.

I don't understand rarity 10 cart's like IThix. "Cracked by"? Not in Romox title list or distribution, but marked commercial? one made?
http://www.atarimani...thix_13445.html
http://www.timmcguin...games/index.htm

[www.atarimania.com]

I hope you DO realize that not everything can be found on the Internet.

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

[Defender II]

chrislynn5, on Wed Feb 1, 2012 12:42 PM, said:

I appreciate your comments, but Atarimania has only the cart and manual for pics, so I've never seen this "box" you speak of. Can we get a picture? You speak of eBay, I haven't seen one? Google searches yield nothing?

The difference is should this be a 10 on Atarimania and listed as a proto/short run , with only a handful made (i.e. 1-3). Or is it a legit production run (i.e. hundreds) with many carts out there in the population.

I don't understand rarity 10 cart's like IThix. "Cracked by"? Not in Romox title list or distribution, but marked commercial? one made?
http://www.atarimani...thix_13445.html
http://www.timmcguin...games/index.htm

I have never liked the 1 to 10 rarity rating, but it is hard to come up with anything more accurate without actual production numbers from the companies themselves.

I have started my own rating in my personal list. If I know a production run as in the case of som new releases like Robbo FOREVER, Yoomp! I put that as the rating ie =25.
For carts that were clearly manufactured releases in great numbers I put >10K and lesser numbers >1K.
If I have only seen 1 of a cart I put =1 as the rating like certain protos. As I see more and more copies I increase the number ie <3 forEspial or >=12 like for Matterhorn. If the numbers hold I get a more accurate picture of rarity. So far I See Mr. Do! as >=5 with a box and instructions found.

Edited by Defender II, Wed Feb 1, 2012 1:02 PM.

[chrislynn5]

www.atarimania.com, on Wed Feb 1, 2012 12:54 PM, said:

I hope you DO realize that not everything can be found on the Internet.

--
Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com

Then help me understand then. I think you'll agree that we can't go with "on your honor". General blanket statements like "many on eBay", "other members own it", don't really help define. I believe in evidence, not faith when it comes to carts

So now it has been mentioned a box exists. Why must we be so protective of what we know, have, and want. I keep hearing things like "such and such" has it in their collection but they won't show anyone what they have, etc. Is the collection "hot" or something? Why hide? Privacy is one thing, then why collect and tell anyone anything at all then.

This is your call to come forth and claim your birth right Parker Brothers Canadian Mr. Do! cartridge owners...

And yes, I am difficult

Edited by chrislynn5, Wed Feb 1, 2012 1:46 PM.

[qix_maniac]

sounds like atarimania.com needs to get a lawyer