51 replies to this topic

[Sean39]

kheffington, on Sun Feb 5, 2012 8:05 PM, said:

Sean39, on Sun Feb 5, 2012 7:58 PM, said:

My problem is getting the extension disk and a manual. I think I have found the manual for about $15.00 ,but I need that disk

I figure that you guys should know where I stand now in this mess.

Thanks
Sean

PM me the mailing address and I will write the ATR to disk and mail it to you.

Hi I did PM you the address.

Thanks so much. I am hoping to find a 1040 STF or an atari falcom that would have a desk top program for her to use in the future.
Till then i have this atari 800 that works great. I had a atari 130XE but it doe not run all the programs that are on cartridge,and
I am not sure if a translator disk works on cartridge base programs.

Anyways I just have that computer put up since it doe not work on alot of the educational cartridges and software that on tape.
My Mickey in the great outdoors only loads up the first game. It on disk.

Anyways there is two parts on the disk. Mickey goes hiking and Mickey goes exploring.

The mickey goes exploring will not load up. I figure the disk must have some bad sectors on it.

Anyways Most the programs I have are cartridge base or tape base. Since I just now got the drive working.
It did not work when I fist received it and it took alot of work to restore it to a working state.
Also I had some help getting it going one night in the chat room.
Slect switch were set wrong and I guess it was dirty on the head and other places.

Anyways the disk drive seems to work ok now.

This has been a really long project of mine since I knew eventually she would need a computer. I will PM you why this has taken a long time.

Thanks
Sean

[Mirage]

Sorry for your losses.

Maybe I'm not understanding the situation exactly, but I feel I'd be doing a disservice by not pointing something out, just in case.

You said your daughter wants to learn programming, and it seems to me you suggested she's using an obsolete language due to cost? Or is it just because she wants to program the Atari first, and the teacher is letting her? If it's the latter, then by all means, go ahead. If it's the former, the Express version of the Visual tools are free, so she could still learn on the current Visual Basic platform, which, if learning is the sole goal, seems like a better option to me:

http://www.microsoft...l-basic-express

It doesn't take much of a computer to run these editions.

EDIT: OK, I found the line "She still is programing in Atari basic just for her self
self satisfaction of doing it." ... OK then, if that's the case. I guess the issue is a bit muddled to me then. But if that's the case, OK. After she picks up the basics of BASIC, I'd say moving to Visual Basic as a next step would be a good choice, and it's not all that much more of a challenge than any old BASIC (I have done quite a bit of VBA programming). My opinion would be moving her over to a modern object-oriented language as soon as possible would be a good move, to get her brain wired to thinking in that direction. If she were very young, maybe not, but at 13, that would be my advice.

Edited by Mirage, Mon Feb 6, 2012 2:54 AM.

[morelenmir]

Is there a manual specifically for microsoft basic II or does the one for basic I cover the same ground?

[chrislynn5]

I thought this was about MS Basic II. Then about languages for someone to learn?
If about MS Basic II, each basic version has unique commands, syntax, and compliers. It's really whatever you liked and found most efficient. And of course, compatiblity.

As for languages today, the leading languages (in my professional opinion ) are: .NET (with C# and vb.net (not to be confused with VB)) and Java. These seem to dominate. There are many other languages, and even more scripting languages. C# and Java are almost alike dialects. I haven't used C in a while. VB.NET is a very strong language now, and has many new characteristics; i.e. inheritence, etc). I use these for MS Windows development (web and os).
Why would any one start coding with something 27+ years old? A few of the concepts hold true, but too much has changed. I'm going back to Assembly Editior just for fun

Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia....Microsoft_BASIC

Also note, Microsoft makes available for free it's compilers so you can write using Notepad and compile. Having a good IDE (i.e. Visual studio) is helpful for formatting, syntax, intellisense, etc.

Edited by chrislynn5, Mon Feb 6, 2012 10:51 AM.

[fibrewire]

morelenmir, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 10:38 AM, said:

Is there a manual specifically for microsoft basic II or does the one for basic I cover the same ground?

It has it's own manual, there is an extra disk too. I'm looking at my NIB Microsoft Basic II fresh from Venezuela

[wood_jl]

Mirage, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 2:48 AM, said:

Maybe I'm not understanding the situation exactly, but I feel I'd be doing a disservice by not pointing something out, just in case.

You said your daughter wants to learn programming, and it seems to me you suggested she's using an obsolete language due to cost? Or is it just because she wants to program the Atari first, and the teacher is letting her? If it's the latter, then by all means, go ahead. If it's the former, the Express version of the Visual tools are free, so she could still learn on the current Visual Basic platform, which, if learning is the sole goal, seems like a better option to me:

http://www.microsoft...l-basic-express

Indeed, he is correct! I use Visual C++ (Visual Studio Express) on a weeny Netbook with Atom processor, and it works **SURPRISINGLY** well. Not knowing anything, I didn't even expect it to work at all. I upped the RAM from 1GB to 2GB and have several browser windows open all the time I'm using it, and it works great!!

I have no experience with Visual Basic, but what tiny bits I've seen look a bit similar to C++.

[chrislynn5]

wood_jl, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 2:58 PM, said:

Mirage, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 2:48 AM, said:

Maybe I'm not understanding the situation exactly, but I feel I'd be doing a disservice by not pointing something out, just in case.

You said your daughter wants to learn programming, and it seems to me you suggested she's using an obsolete language due to cost? Or is it just because she wants to program the Atari first, and the teacher is letting her? If it's the latter, then by all means, go ahead. If it's the former, the Express version of the Visual tools are free, so she could still learn on the current Visual Basic platform, which, if learning is the sole goal, seems like a better option to me:

http://www.microsoft...l-basic-express

Indeed, he is correct! I use Visual C++ (Visual Studio Express) on a weeny Netbook with Atom processor, and it works **SURPRISINGLY** well. Not knowing anything, I didn't even expect it to work at all. I upped the RAM from 1GB to 2GB and have several browser windows open all the time I'm using it, and it works great!!

I have no experience with Visual Basic, but what tiny bits I've seen look a bit similar to C++.

I forgot to list C++ (it's used much less these days, but it depends on the application), but VB is nothing like C++. C++/Java/C# are all close dialects. VB is more human readable. There was a huge leap back in 2001 for VB, it went from VB6 to VB.NET (7+). They overhauled it making it a legitimate language. I love VB.NET and C#.

[Sean39]

Hi Guys
Now I am pretty old. What is VB.Net ?
Never programed in that


Sean

[bf2k+]

Sean39, on Thu Feb 9, 2012 12:25 AM, said:

Hi Guys
Now I am pretty old. What is VB.Net ?
Never programed in that

MIcrosoft Visual Basic.NET

(I'm pretty old too!)

[rdemming]

Sean39, on Thu Feb 9, 2012 12:25 AM, said:

Now I am pretty old. What is VB.Net ?

VB.NET is the .NET version of Visual Basic. Although they share the name and VB.NET has very similar syntax to VB, VB.NET could be considered a new language. The step from VB to VB.NET is very big mostly because VB was an object based language while VB.NET is an object oriented language which added things like inheritance and polymorphism and in later versions generics. VB programmers switching to VB.NET must change the way they design software to correctly use VB.NET.

VB compiles to code for x86 processors while VB.NET compiles to IL (Intermediate Language) code for the .NET platform. The .NET platform is a run-time environment (virtual machine) that manages, checks and JIT compiles .NET IL code. This is similar to the Java platform (virtual machine).
So actually you write code for a virtual machine that can be run on every platform that implements the virtual machine. Microsoft supports of course only the Windows flavors but with the Mono project you could run .NET code also on Linux and Mac platforms.

VB.NET is only one of the languages that can create code for the .NET platform. Microsoft also provides C# (the language developed for the .NET platform and thus preferred is a lot of situations in my opinion), F# (A functional language) and C++/CLI (C++ with .NET extensions). Third parties can provide .NET versions of their language such as IronRuby/Ruby.NET, IronPython and Delphi.NET.

chrislynn5, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 3:05 PM, said:

I forgot to list C++ (it's used much less these days, but it depends on the application), but VB is nothing like C++. C++/Java/C# are all close dialects. VB is more human readable. There was a huge leap back in 2001 for VB, it went from VB6 to VB.NET (7+). They overhauled it making it a legitimate language. I love VB.NET and C#.

Although functionality wise it does not much matter if you use VB.NET or C#, I as a programmer with a C++ background (and with VB6 experience), strongly prefer C# over VB.NET. The C# syntax is more cryptic than VB.NET but if you are used to it, I find C# more comfortable. Curly brackets {} are way better than "Begin Something ... End Something"

Robert

[chrislynn5]

I agree, I use both VB.NET and C#, and like both equally. I watch the Java community move towards the same concepts, "code-behind's", etc since the Microsoft IDE (Visual studio) is more robust in my opinion. The controls have always been more rich. Java is trying to catch up with items like Google IDE's, etc. I'm involved in a project right now that is Java and it's way over budget, overly complicated, slow in performance, and definiately not RAD. Even if you pile on all on the add-on's and other tech's (i.e. JQuery, WebLogic, libraries, etc) it's not close to .NET. And I do know you can take any technology and misuse it, etc. But I find Java much different, a lot of high dollar talent with no idea of UI, use, and form. They never had to, everyone throws the work over a wall to the next disipline (i.e. DB, Front end (UI), security, etc).

So I guess after my rant, if it were me starting fresh, go .NET.

[rdemming]

I agree that .NET has the edge over Java.

I've done some things in Java as well. At that time (pre .NET), it had many great things. When Microsoft got kicked out of Java by Sun because they added their own extensions to Java (MS J++), they took all good ideas from Java (and the MS J++ delegates that caused Sun to get angry) and created their own platform (.NET and C#).

In my opinion .NET handles a lot of things more cleanly than Java like delegates instead of (anonymous) event handler classes. And as you already mentions, the code behind concepts in ASP.NET are cleaner than the HTML/Java code intertwined code of JSP.
Also separation of user code and tool generated code in partial classes are great.
Also in Java, generic code is an afterthought (converted to object using type erasure) while in .NET generics are a first class citizen in the IL code.

You can say everything about Microsoft but they deliver a complete environment (platform, libraries, developing & debugging tools, web server, database server, etc.) out of the box limiting the need for third-party software. Yes, I too like .NET very much but I still use C++ for specific situations. C++ still has its place and will never leave.

Robert

[AtariGeezer]

Only thing i don't like about VB.NET is that it can be decompiled back to VB source code...

Jay

[chrislynn5]

That is true only if you don't use Obfuscation. There are many, and included, in .NET to prevent the reading of your code. I do agree, however, that this needs better protection without the need to 'wrap' your code.
Java also has this issue.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Dotfuscator

Edited by chrislynn5, Thu Feb 9, 2012 8:27 AM.

[rdemming]

AtariGeezer, on Thu Feb 9, 2012 7:57 AM, said:

Only thing i don't like about VB.NET is that it can be decompiled back to VB source code...

Better yet, compiled VB.NET code can be decompiled to C# code

But this is a problem that all byte-code languages have including Java.

It can be somewhat mitigated by using obfuscators which scramble all the internal names and uses a couple of other techniques so the resulting decompiled code is unreadable for humans. Also when using features such as lambda functions and LINQ, the decompiled code contains the compiler generated classes/code instead of the original lambda/LINQ expressions. Obfuscation makes it more difficult to get readable code but not impossible. A language that is compiled to machine code gives more protection but if someone really wants, it is then also possible to disassemble it into something readable.


Robert


Edit: Chris beat me while writing this message

Edited by rdemming, Thu Feb 9, 2012 8:33 AM.

[chrislynn5]

Great answer. At least we agree.

[sloopy]

hmm... seems we have a bunch of knowledgable coders here...

what things are you coding on the A8 right now?

:'D
sloopy.

[AtariGeezer]

For me, it's ATR Tools written in Visual Studio 6 to use on the PC.
Otherwise, I'm making a new Handler ROM for the 1450xl so I can use the IDE Plus 2.0 on it

Jay

[Sean39]

AtariGeezer, on Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:09 PM, said:

For me, it's ATR Tools written in Visual Studio 6 to use on the PC.
Otherwise, I'm making a new Handler ROM for the 1450xl so I can use the IDE Plus 2.0 on it

Jay

Hi you have the 1450XL Machine?

Where did you find one of them? WOW

Sean

[AtariGeezer]

Sean39, on Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:22 PM, said:

Hi you have the 1450XL Machine?

Where did you find one of them? WOW

Sean

I built it
Mimo sold me the motherboard that he bought from Best Electronics (now all sold out) and the rest of the parts were taken from a 1200xl and 800xl. plus an order to Digi-Key...

You can check out this thread for more info:
http://www.atariage....rted-questions/

Jay

[BillC]

Sean39, on Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:22 PM, said:

Hi you have the 1450XL Machine?

Where did you find one of them? WOW

Sean

It was discussed in the following thread, unfortunately the 1450 boards are now sold out:
http://www.atariage..../page__hl__1450

[AtariGeezer]

LOL, I beat you to it by a few seconds

[Sean39]

AtariGeezer, on Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:06 PM, said:

LOL, I beat you to it by a few seconds

Well that sucks. I have seen pictures of the 1450XL and always wanted one of those machines. They were cool looking machines

Sean

[Sean39]

I love the Look of this Machine.

http://www.atarimuse...ld/1450xld.html

It just to bad they never put them into full production

Sean

[Sean39]

WOW I wish
I had been up when that thread was going. So did anyone ever get the machine to function fully Correctly on the drives and everything else.
Wow that is a really cool computer. even the appearance is really great.

Think atari went wrong by not putting that machine into production.
I am sure they would have sold alot of them.

Sean