If anyone is interested... or at least talk about this one...

[José Pereira]

WIZBALL:

This is a game that IO always thought how to and why not have it on A8...

Exactly like C64 it's impossible because of the C64 hardware sprites but it could be good with the A8 CPU and colours...

Not exactly all 100% thinked but almost there...

 

For the first time I get things in a 'traditional A8 way' because the wizball and cateball are A8 PMs only and then the rest would be soft sprites...

But how to get all the game map more the soft sprites fit in an 128chars A8 charset?

The Eagle way of having the stars pixels using the A8 Missiles it's the first step to reduce the nº of chars...

 

If the Top and Bottom Status Areas are also GR.15 Bitmap Mode also get us with more available cycles.

 

Now with a C64 Level cleaned more the nº of C64 sprites maximum usually on screen I think we have the Playing Area to fit in just 1charset.

 

 

And some more detailed explanation:

 

And this can also be reduced to 32bytes wide if necessary to have more free cycles.

[Rybags]

Narrowscreen - not really, you need the width to see what's coming.

 

It's a really good game, problem is if it's not done right, it's not worth bothering. Just play the C64 then Amiga version to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

[oky2000]

NOT AMIGA version! Horrible port!

 

Sound is more difficult, this game has some of the best SID music + SFX.

[emkay]

GR.7 is your friend, making the game possible with fluently running software sprites.

 

The music... well... not possible > that way < on the A8. The "Tracker" is simply missing, and POKEY optimised tracks.

[José Pereira]

GR.7 is your friend, making the game possible with fluently running software sprites.

 

The music... well... not possible > that way < on the A8. The "Tracker" is simply missing, and POKEY optimised tracks.

 

No need to GR.7 as a version of the game already exists for A8.

Didn't know about it untill someone said to me on AtariOnline:

http://int.search-results.com/fr?q=zauberball+atari+xl&desturi=http%3A%2F%2Fgury.atari8.info%2Fdetails_games%2F4344.htm&initialURL=http%3A%2F%2Fint.search-results.com%2Fpictures%3Fl%3Ddis%26locale%3Den_EN%26o%3D14899%26q%3Dzauberball%2520atari%2520xl%26atb%3Dsysid%253D101%253Auid%253Df6fd218fb88e5b5f%253Auc%253D1333035978%253Ab%253DSearchnu%253Asrc%253Dhmp%253Ao%253D14899%253Aq%253Dzauberball%252520atari%252520xl&fm=i&ac=24&fsel=1&ftURI=http%3A%2F%2Fint.search-results.com%2Ffr%3Fq%3Dzauberball%2Batari%2Bxl%26desturi%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fgury.atari8.info%252Fdetails_games%252F4344.htm%26imagesrc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fgury.atari8.info%252Fimage_folder%252Fz%252Fzauberball_7.png%26thumbsrc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fmedia3.picsearch.com%252Fis%253FPytA4cYhQ3LnlXgiUex6K2ne9xZGMwkxKB5oCNyryPk%26o%3D14899%26l%3Ddis%26thumbuselocalisedstatic%3Dfalse%26thumbwidth%3D128%26thumbheight%3D91%26fn%3Dzauberball_7.png%26imagewidth%3D336%26imageheight%3D240%26fs%3D6%26f%3D2%26fm%3Di%26fsel%3D1%26atb%3Dsysid%253D101%253Auid%253Df6fd218fb88e5b5f%253Auc%253D1333035978%253Ab%253DSearchnu%253Asrc%253Dhmp%253Ao%253D14899%253Aq%253Dzauberball%252520atari%252520xl%26ftbURI%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fint.search-results.com%252Fpictures%253Fq%253Dzauberball%252Batari%252Bxl%2526page%253D1%2526o%253D14899%2526l%253Ddis%2526pstart%253D%2526atb%253Dsysid%25253D101%25253Auid%25253Df6fd218fb88e5b5f%25253Auc%25253D1333035978%25253Ab%25253DSearchnu%25253Asrc%25253Dhmp%25253Ao%25253D14899%25253Aq%25253Dzauberball%25252520atari%25252520xl&atb=sysid%3D101%3Auid%3Df6fd218fb88e5b5f%3Auc%3D1333035978%3Ab%3DSearchnu%3Asrc%3Dhmp%3Ao%3D14899%3Aq%3Dzauberball%2520atari%2520xl&qt=0

And it is doing things exactly like I thought. It is exactly the same idea of ANTIC4 on the Playing area with the Wizball using PM0&PM1 and Cateball only P2&P3 leaving the Missiles for the Star pixels. And also the PF3 colour on the Enemys.

It seems that my ideas can work.

[emkay]

Mockup.....

 

 

Scoreboard could stand in single scanline mode, possibly at 32 byte width.

 

 

[José Pereira]

Mockup.....

 

 

Scoreboard could stand in single scanline mode, possibly at 32 byte width.

 

How would you get the 5th colour on the Enemys?

You only have 4on screen GR.7.

[emkay]

Mockup.....

 

 

Scoreboard could stand in single scanline mode, possibly at 32 byte width.

 

How would you get the 5th colour on the Enemys?

You only have 4on screen GR.7.

 

PM underlay.... what else?

It's a perfect candidate for GRIOR 0. Using 48 bytes width, well you can use a playfield colour for background.

[José Pereira]

Mockup.....

 

 

Scoreboard could stand in single scanline mode, possibly at 32 byte width.

 

How would you get the 5th colour on the Enemys?

You only have 4on screen GR.7.

 

PM underlay.... what else?

It's a perfect candidate for GRIOR 0. Using 48 bytes width, well you can use a playfield colour for background.

 

And with you GR.7 it's always the solution but it isn't.

 

1st Wizball can be done with ANTIC4 and it is already although not as good as the original (Zuberball).

2nd your not right with your idea using GR.7 and PRIOR0.

 

 

GR.7 and PRIOR0:

-> Wizballl and Catball would need to be PM0 &P1 to get Oring PM+PF0&PF1Oring 3colours and be different from gfxs (gfxs change colours/luminances when you colour them) and lets say that M0&M1 would now be the shooting

-> Enemys would then be P2&P3 (double width would turn possible the 12pixels wide sprites)

-> We stil have M2&M3 for the Stars.

 

Great isn't it?

If it is I even don't see why get GR.7 as Gr.15 would do and better looking.

But it doesn't work because Enemys are sometimes maximum of possible 5or6 at the same line.

With just two Player underlay P2&P3 then how you colour them?

[emkay]

1st Wizball can be done with ANTIC4 and it is already although not as good as the original (Zuberball).

 

I'm a bit twisted with "Zauberball" . It is so close to Wizball. An A8 version could be done that way. Gr.7 would make things easier and more fluent.

 

 

2nd your not right with your idea using GR.7 and PRIOR0.

 

 

GR.7 and PRIOR0:

-> Wizballl and Catball would need to be PM0 &P1 to get Oring PM+PF0&PF1Oring 3colours and be different from gfxs (gfxs change colours/luminances when you colour them) and lets say that M0&M1 would now be the shooting

-> Enemys would then be P2&P3 (double width would turn possible the 12pixels wide sprites)

-> We stil have M2&M3 for the Stars.

 

Great isn't it?

If it is I even don't see why get GR.7 as Gr.15 would do and better looking.

But it doesn't work because Enemys are sometimes maximum of possible 5or6 at the same line.

With just two Player underlay P2&P3 then how you colour them?

 

Two players, two missiles and due to the Gfx-Mode there is enough CPU time to reuse 2 players in a scanline...

Edited May 12, 2012 by emkay

[José Pereira]

Would like to see the re-use of P2&P3 in the scrolling...

Or are you saying Multiplexing and flicker when they are at the same lines like Ripper?

[José Pereira]

O.k., using the same way as in Wizball (ZubberBall) and moving over 'clean' sky bit-pair (00) as the stars are M2&amp;M3, our ship it's PM0&amp;PM1 that leaves P2 for the surrounding/circle moving weapon and P3 for the top and bottom shooting a Delta type it's also possible.

You would need 6or7 C64 size soft sprites and because in Delta there's no Enemys crossing gfxs that is 6or7 x 16chars each = 96or112 chars (including shifting) and the shooting front and backs white untill 128chars A8 charset limit enough (other charset would be for the top and bottom gfxs).

 

6or7 soft sprites at C64 size (or smaller like 3x3chars each) and because they are moving in a static/clean ANTIC4 40bytes wides are 'LDA/EOR/STA', I think that is something like 17cycles per byte seems possible.

Using ANTIC4 (or even 5 but it doesn't seem really needed) just to have the Enemys attcking waves with two colours different.

(of course you could do all like in Eagle's Embex in GR.7 on the Playing Area or even Bitmap Mode GR.15 but you would only have the attacking waves always the same colour.

Edited June 15, 2012 by José Pereira

[José Pereira]

DEL.

Edited June 15, 2012 by José Pereira

[José Pereira]

O.k., using the same way as in Wizball (ZubberBall) and moving over 'clean' sky bit-pair (00) as the stars are M2&amp;amp;amp;amp;M3, our ship it's PM0&amp;amp;amp;amp;PM1 that leaves P2 for the surrounding/circle moving weapon and P3 for the top and bottom shooting a Delta type it's also possible.

You would need 6or7 C64 size soft sprites and because in Delta there's no Enemys crossing gfxs that is 6or7 x 16chars each = 96or112 chars (including shifting) and the shooting front and backs white untill 128chars A8 charset limit enough (other charset would be for the top and bottom gfxs).

 

6or7 soft sprites at C64 size (or smaller like 3x3chars each) and because they are moving in a static/clean ANTIC4 40bytes wides are 'LDA/EOR/STA', I think that is something like 17cycles per byte seems possible.

Using ANTIC4 (or even 5 but it doesn't seem really needed) just to have the Enemys attcking waves with two colours different.

(of course you could do all like in Eagle's Embex in GR.7 on the Playing Area or even Bitmap Mode GR.15 but you would only have the attacking waves always the same colour.

Strange no one wants to talk about this...With only 6 or 7 soft sprites and not crossing the 128chars=1 A8 charset it's possible.(some Music also?)Going into GR.7 and lots more (20 but less size) and Music:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=ahbTHZnEvg4

 

 

 

GR.15 (I think it is, don't remember what Jac! said when he send me this video):

 

(and with PMG overlays )

 

 

 

 

 

And don't say me that no one untill today had done a 6 or 7 soft sprites routine on A8 over a 'clean sky'/bit-pair (00) ?

Edited June 18, 2012 by José Pereira

[Creature XL]

And don't say me that no one untill today had done a 6 or 7 soft sprites routine on A8 over a 'clean sky'/bit-pair (00) ?

 

Of course it is possible.

 

Somewhat related:

I would propose to use 8x16 sprites for A8 and not only to concentrate on the C64-size. Okay, if you want to do a 1:1 copy of a C64 game that is one thing (aka C2 port ).

 

However, I wrote it often in this forum: why not adapt the game idea from, say, C64 and tailor it to the A8?

Why spend 6 month figuring ou thow to emulate 8 sprites instead of changing attack waves or modifiyng the screen layout so that say 4 or 6 sprites are enough?

Take the C2-interlude: Why not simply make the big bird smaller? The game-play is still the same.

[José Pereira]

And don't say me that no one untill today had done a 6 or 7 soft sprites routine on A8 over a 'clean sky'/bit-pair (00) ?

 

Of course it is possible.

 

Somewhat related:

I would propose to use 8x16 sprites for A8 and not only to concentrate on the C64-size. Okay, if you want to do a 1:1 copy of a C64 game that is one thing (aka C2 port ).

 

However, I wrote it often in this forum: why not adapt the game idea from, say, C64 and tailor it to the A8?

Why spend 6 month figuring ou thow to emulate 8 sprites instead of changing attack waves or modifiyng the screen layout so that say 4 or 6 sprites are enough?

Take the C2-interlude: Why not simply make the big bird smaller? The game-play is still the same.

 

 

Yes, we could do that, even on Creatures2 but you needto continue the code ...

(but C2 really need to be C64 like, probably re-size only on the Big Creatures Level, probably and only there )

 

But the way it is in this Wizball or Delta proposal it's possible to emulate directly the C64 sprites and attacking waves...

6or7 soft sprites it's possible here because you have them always moving over (00), on C2 you have them wasting 'LDA/AND/OR/STA' that is around 21cycles per byte.

Here on these two it's something around 16or17 cycles per byte because it's only 'LDA/EOR/STA', isn't it?

(any soft sprite always go 'above/win' VS sky bit-pair (00))

Edited June 18, 2012 by José Pereira

[snicklin]

Good to see you around Jose, I enjoy reading your posts.

[José Pereira]

DEL.

Edited June 20, 2012 by José Pereira

[José Pereira]

O.k., using the same way as in Wizball (ZubberBall) and moving over 'clean' sky bit-pair (00) as the stars are M2&amp;M3, our ship it's PM0&amp;PM1 that leaves P2 for the surrounding/circle moving weapon and P3 for the top and bottom shooting a Delta type it's also possible.

You would need 6or7 C64 size soft sprites and because in Delta there's no Enemys crossing gfxs that is 6or7 x 16chars each = 96or112 chars (including shifting) and the shooting front and backs white untill 128chars A8 charset limit enough (other charset would be for the top and bottom gfxs).

 

6or7 soft sprites at C64 size (or smaller like 3x3chars each) and because they are moving in a static/clean ANTIC4 40bytes wides are 'LDA/EOR/STA', I think that is something like 17cycles per byte seems possible.

Using ANTIC4 (or even 5 but it doesn't seem really needed) just to have the Enemys attcking waves with two colours different.

(of course you could do all like in Eagle's Embex in GR.7 on the Playing Area or even Bitmap Mode GR.15 but you would only have the attacking waves always the same colour.

 

 

Any coder around that has time and would like to code DELTA on A8?

I (and someone else...) could pay something for the work...

[José Pereira]

There's no problem, that people earn some money... or do you have some probem?

Do you think me (or otherts with me....) will not pay...

[Creature XL]

Any coder around that has time and would like to code DELTA on A8?

I (and someone else...) could pay something for the work...

 

Is there any need? Looks similar to Zybex.

I would like to use smaller sprites 9x16.

 

i think TMR once told us that the coder used sprites for everything. As in no play-field gfx (maybe the stars).

We would use a missile for the stars and the rest with soft sprites (except the players ship)

 

TMR might the best candidate to do it. These shooters are his specialty, right?

[TMR]

Is there any need? Looks similar to Zybex.

 

[shoot 'em up fanboy mode]It's only the same as Zybex in the sense it has a player, enemies, bullets and so forth.[/shoot 'em up fanboy mode]

 

Delta is a bit Marmite to be honest, the way weapon power-ups are handled gives it a very different feel to games like Zybex; power-up credits gained from shooting waves are only valid at the next shop and weapons expire after time. Not everyone liked this when it was released and the reviews reflected that.

 

i think TMR once told us that the coder used sprites for everything. As in no play-field gfx (maybe the stars).

 

Not everything but close; on the C64, the player, seven enemies, all the backgrounds and the status panels are multicolour hardware sprites whilst the player bullets including the orbiting weapon, enemy bullets and starfield are all high res characters; the starfield, player ship and all bullets can move everywhere on the playfield (if the player's ship is hiding in a landscape gap, the enemies can't move into that zone vertically but it can still be shot) and use pre-shifted characters for the slower-moving ones so that'll need a rethink to move them through the various "zones" of the playfield. Also, memory is probably going to be tight because the original is already crammed (although some of that is because the code was apparently written in a machine code monitor, resourcing it or starting from scratch will help in that respect) without needing to preshift enemies so i haven't even started doing the maths but it might have to be a 128K or upwards/cartridge-based/multiloading project on the A8.

 

TMR might the best candidate to do it. These shooters are his specialty, right?

 

PeteD had running code for a Delta conversion at one point i believe...

[Creature XL]

Thanks TMR for refreshing my mind and going into teh game details a bit.

Honestly, I only skipped thru one longplay video on Youtube.

 

@Jose:

It's not exactly "only moving over '00'", as the enemies can overlap. So you would have to rearrange the flight paths to avoid that.

 

As The Morons of HAR will not complete the started game for this years ABBUC SW contest, I would have a bit of time for a little game. However, not Delta.

So, PeteD

[José Pereira]

As The Morons of HAR will not complete the started game for this years ABBUC SW contest, I would have a bit of time for a little game. However, not Delta.

So, PeteD

I remember PeteD had something but like all the other games he was coding nothing 'see the daylight'...Even if he was ... with some A8 guys and he didn't want more to code for A8 he also didn't finish his Knight Lore C64 conversion and he isn't at FormatWar, Lemon64, his blog nor anywhere for Months (January/February).Anyone knows anything about him?

[macgoo]

Jose have you played Delta? It's nothing special, few fancy tricks with sprite multiplexing and sprites in the border but apart from the excellent music it is not that great really.

 

Would be better if someone converted Nemesis or Salamander to A8. Plenty of host machines to take graphics from like Amstrad, Spectrum, C64 and MSX versions.