Appeal of new 8-bit software.

[+MrFish]

I'll demonstrate my view on the subject a little further by quoting part of a personal message that I sent to FlashJazzCat in a discussion we were having some months back:

 

For me, it's just the matter of, "why am I playing with an Atari in the first place?". I've been able to define that very well for myself over the last 5 years. It is the abstract artistry, the challenge in the limitations, and the uniqueness of what gets produced.

 

My attraction to the abstractness and uniqueness was actually defined for me even back in the 80's. At that time I was programming an Atari 130XE at home. I remember I went to visit my older brother at Michigan State University one time while he was studying computer science there. I sat down with him at a Sun SPARCStation (first time for me). He then showed me some pictures that the machine was capable of displaying on the screen. The images looked like pictures right out of a magazine. They were perfect reproductions in high resolution and high color. I said to him, "what is the novelty in that? If I want to view pictures like that, I'll go and look at a magazine". Of course later I realized the value of storing photos on a computer. But, the idea that I was getting across was that the image didn't look "computerized" anymore. To me, that was the novelty of seeing images on a computer, that they were unique compared to any other medium. The only images that looked like computer images, were... computer images. Once computer images started looking like photos, they were no longer computer images to me.

 

Another type of computer-produced image that exemplified this characteristic to me was the ASCII picture. I remember seeing these produced from patron's photos, printed on dot-matrix printers and sold at a famous amusement park near where I was raised during the late 70's. Nothing had ever looked like these before, nothing else ever would and only a computer could produce them (easily anyway).

 

It's the same way with the Atari's sound capabilities. Pokey makes very computer-unique sounds. Once the sounds quality becomes on par with analog sound, then the use is more a replacement/alternative for the original analog that it is copying. Obviously, as is the case with digital picture benefits, there are the same benefits to digitally stored/utilized sounds/music.

[RevEng]

That definitely resonates with me, and why I got into retro development; the artistry. There's no reason to paint in watercolor if the result is going to look like a photograph.

 

To quote Raymond Chandler, "...There is no success where there is no possibility of failure, no art without the resistance of the medium..."

 

In the case of retro games, the developer needs to strip away lofty ideas to their purest essence, and push the machine until it finally yields to their will. While a lot of people might not immediately see that as art, it is in my book.

[+MrFish]

It's also like asking musician's why they still create new music on acoustic instruments invented hundreds of years ago, and why people still listen to such music. Part of the reason is because acoustic instruments have a particular character and a simplicity.

[Gunstar]

If I were you, I would break this question down by geographic region. The US is different from the EU, etc...

The question should work in any part of the world, and it is simply this: "What is the appeal of new 8-bit games?" - to clarify what I'm getting at, what I mean is, if you like new 8-bit games, why do you like new 8-bit games?

 

Regards,

 

Shaun.

 

For me the appeal of new 8-bit games is the same it always was, 30 years ago or today. Why, just becuase technology has made games much more sophisticated on new technology (and I enjoy the latest games on new tech too), should it make new games on old, less sophisticated systems of years passed any less enjoyable?

 

Why, just because they are new games on old tech should they be any less fun to play than new games were years ago when the the old tech was new? I still enjoy playing chess, and it's an ancient game. Is chess only fun to play now with 3D graphics on the latest PC? People still like board games, even though they rely on no technology at all. Baseball and Football have been around for 100-200 years, but they are even more popular today than ever! Old does not equal bad or boring!!!

 

We have tons of interactive media, but billions of people world-wide still enjoy non-interactive movies, new or classic, or even classic books (whether in books or on a Nook or other electronic tablet). are new books only good if read on technolgoy instead in a bound book? So why should it be any different than playing new games on old systems?

 

Personally I think it's all in people's heads. They have been brain-washed by the industry and media into thinking it's only good if it is on the latest technology. If more people would give old tech a chance, they too would realize it's still good too.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Gunstar

[+MrFish]

Personally I think it's all in people's heads. They have been brain-washed by the industry and media into thinking it's only good if it is on the latest technology. If more people would give old tech a chance, they too would realize it's still good too.

 

And that's driven by greed, in part. They have everybody on their technology bicycles, peddling as fast as they can to keep up with what are often small advances in the technology. They have to make a living, but sorry, they're not going to do it on my hard-earned dollar. I find that I can live quite well by upgrading only about once every 4 or 5 years (and that usually with used equipment), unless I'm just looking for something new to play with. I'd rather spend that same money on collecting and preserving old Atari gear and software.

[atarian63]

My drawer full of new games would say otherwise...

also just finished playing "Moon Cresta" on my Atari 7800, a NEW game for that system. Much prefer nre "Old" games to new games on a tablet or pc

That's very anecdotal. I've been writing about new games on old systems for a decade now - just because you have a drawer full of new 8-bit games does not mean that's the norm. Most people just like the nostalgia, reliving age-old arguments of this format is better than that, or playing the classics on a particular system.

 

What I'm asking is what is the appeal of 8-bit games. I'm not interested in anything else other than this. So, why do you have a drawer full of newly published 8-bit games then? Do you collect them, or play them? To do worry about how good those games are? Or would you buy them anyway because it's something new on your favourite old system(s)?

 

Regards,

 

Shaun.

I do find that most people nostalgic about old games really know little to nothing about them or the times they were created (in other words ignorant). I would buy them anyway as a preference as I enjoy both collecting but most playing my old systems and mostly reject the software for the newer systems. The game mostly seem of good to really good quality and some fill a blank where the item should have been made for the system in it's day but for some reason was not.

[potatohead]

Kick ass comments on the art of it. Agreed.

[Gunstar]

Personally I think it's all in people's heads. They have been brain-washed by the industry and media into thinking it's only good if it is on the latest technology. If more people would give old tech a chance, they too would realize it's still good too.

 

And that's driven by greed, in part. They have everybody on their technology bicycles, peddling as fast as they can to keep up with what are often small advances in the technology. They have to make a living, but sorry, they're not going to do it on my hard-earned dollar. I find that I can live quite well by upgrading only about once every 4 or 5 years (and that usually with used equipment), unless I'm just looking for something new to play with. I'd rather spend that same money on collecting and preserving old Atari gear and software.

 

I upgrade even less. About every 10-15 years. A year ago I "upgraded" to a computer that is 10 years old with WinXP now, from a computer 15 years old and Win98. But of course all I use my PC for is the internet and Microsoft office for my business. But I'm even planning on downgrading to using my 8-bit along with 8-bit spreadsheets, word processing and other business apps for my business. It works fine for what I need to do, which is basically word processing and invoices. I "upgraded" from the Dreamcast to an original Xbox 2 years ago (still have and use the Dreamcast and other classic systems) and soon I'll be upgrading to the Xbox 360, only becuase my brother bought a new one with larger hard-drive and is sending me his old 360. The last game system I bought new was the Atari Jaguar in '95, ever since, I wait for bargain-bin ex-gen systems to get down to under a $100 and a full library of games I can get for $5-10. The ONLY new games I buy anymore are the ones made for classic systems. I'm sick of the industry and the outragious prices, so I wait and am always a generation behind with my systems now.

[+MrFish]

Personally I think it's all in people's heads. They have been brain-washed by the industry and media into thinking it's only good if it is on the latest technology. If more people would give old tech a chance, they too would realize it's still good too.

 

And that's driven by greed, in part. They have everybody on their technology bicycles, peddling as fast as they can to keep up with what are often small advances in the technology. They have to make a living, but sorry, they're not going to do it on my hard-earned dollar. I find that I can live quite well by upgrading only about once every 4 or 5 years (and that usually with used equipment), unless I'm just looking for something new to play with. I'd rather spend that same money on collecting and preserving old Atari gear and software.

 

I upgrade even less. About every 10-15 years. A year ago I "upgraded" to a computer that is 10 years old with WinXP now, from a computer 15 years old and Win98. But of course all I use my PC for is the internet and Microsoft office for my business. But I'm even planning on downgrading to using my 8-bit along with 8-bit spreadsheets, word processing and other business apps for my business. It works fine for what I need to do, which is basically word processing and invoices. I "upgraded" from the Dreamcast to an original Xbox 2 years ago (still have and use the Dreamcast and other classic systems) and soon I'll be upgrading to the Xbox 360, only becuase my brother bought a new one with larger hard-drive and is sending me his old 360. The last game system I bought new was the Atari Jaguar in '95, ever since, I wait for bargain-bin ex-gen systems to get down to under a $100 and a full library of games I can get for $5-10. The ONLY new games I buy anymore are the ones made for classic systems. I'm sick of the industry and the outragious prices, so I wait and am always a generation behind with my systems now.

 

I've actually upgraded more often in recent years, but only due to the fact that I work for a tech recycler. I get pick of the litter when new stuff comes in, and then a nice employee discount. The stuff ends up so cheap I can hardly afford not to get some of it, especially when they just tell me I can have it for free, which is often the case. In spite of that I'm good at putting reasonable limitations on what I bring into my home -- I wouldn't be able to move around in my own place if I brought home everything I saw that I liked. I don't own any consoles, nor do I own a television. The 8-bits are my consoles and the internet is my television (add-blocked of course).

[Gunstar]

The net would probably be my TV too, if it weren't for the fact that Direct TV is included in my rent. And of course I have my projector and 150 inch screen for DTV, movies and game systems.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Gunstar

[+MrFish]

And of course I have my projector and 150 inch screen for DTV, movies and game systems.

 

Haha... a 150 inch display, now the truth comes out. A few minutes ago I thought you just had this humble setup.

 

The net would probably be my TV too, if it weren't for the fact that Direct TV is included in my rent.

 

I had free Cable/Satellite at the previous two places I lived. I watched it. I'm not against TV, since I'm the one who chooses when and what to watch. I just found that could live without it quite well. Even before, when I had all that channel selection for free, I found that I just left it on for background noise while working on my computer. Now I just use Media Player with a movie or music when I need that.

[emkay]

Thanks chaps. I'm rather curious about the Atari XE/XL simply because it didn't get much commercial support much after 1986 from what I recall, at least here in the UK, whereas the big publishers did support other 8-bits such as the Amstrad CPC, C64 and ZX Spectrum. And yet the Atari scene seems much more active than the Amstrad - unless I'm missing something.

 

 

To me, that is the most important point of keeping the 8 bit stuff. As particular the A8 is the most underused 8 bit of it's time. Bad Marketing and limited support made it "forgotten fast", as also today most people remember of a C64, but don't know about the Atari 8-Bits.

 

Let me explain ith this way:

 

Back in the days, the technically best games were International Karate, Drop Zone, Rescue on Fractalus, Koronis Rift.

POKEY music was known as "flat" and out of tune. And the huge palette was "not usable" for images...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twjra-_3PRs

 

Because of the several times revived "same old" hardware, things have become more interesting with those demos of the polish(eastern europe) guys (for example).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNJW0k2fVo

 

 

Now it turned out that the A8 is able to produce games like "Wolf 3D" in an 8 bit world, but fully fluent (the only 8-bit of the early 80s-late 70s able to do so)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuZywAxfGkw

 

POKEY hasn't to sound "flat" and the latest tools on PC show that the palette isn't really unuseful

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4xgXVzP91o

 

 

People do it just they want to do it. No need to earn money there.

If it were only for the money, the A8 had ended in 1986's state.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuumFyfIU4c

[emkay]

Have another look at the commercial game ....

 

http://www.mobygames.com/game/pawn/screenshots

 

 

.... if you like to compare to other platforms.

 

and then have a look there:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/156160-quantizator/page__st__250#entry2518106

 

Computergraphics on computers from 1978/79 Reminding of a PC from late 80s.

[emkay]

Not to forget the real available games, people wouldn't mind back then ....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B-_6-RuJR0

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNxICcU3bPo

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAjvlSCf7CE

 

...

 

 

 

[+MrFish]

Here's another reason to write new software for the Atari 8-Bits:

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Annual ABBUC Programming Contest Prize Awards

 

1st Place: 500 Euro

2nd Place: 250 Euro

3rd Place: 125 Euro

 

4th Place: 75 Euro

5th Place: 50 Euro

 

6th - 10th Place: a small non-cash prize each!

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

BTW, what's the small non-cash prize award... anybody know?

[BillyHW]

Thanks chaps. I'm rather curious about the Atari XE/XL simply because it didn't get much commercial support much after 1986 from what I recall, at least here in the UK, whereas the big publishers did support other 8-bits such as the Amstrad CPC, C64 and ZX Spectrum. And yet the Atari scene seems much more active than the Amstrad - unless I'm missing something.

 

 

To me, that is the most important point of keeping the 8 bit stuff. As particular the A8 is the most underused 8 bit of it's time. Bad Marketing and limited support made it "forgotten fast", as also today most people remember of a C64, but don't know about the Atari 8-Bits.

 

Let me explain ith this way:

 

Back in the days, the technically best games were International Karate, Drop Zone, Rescue on Fractalus, Koronis Rift.

POKEY music was known as "flat" and out of tune. And the huge palette was "not usable" for images...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twjra-_3PRs

 

Because of the several times revived "same old" hardware, things have become more interesting with those demos of the polish(eastern europe) guys (for example).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNJW0k2fVo

 

 

Now it turned out that the A8 is able to produce games like "Wolf 3D" in an 8 bit world, but fully fluent (the only 8-bit of the early 80s-late 70s able to do so)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuZywAxfGkw

 

POKEY hasn't to sound "flat" and the latest tools on PC show that the palette isn't really unuseful

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4xgXVzP91o

 

 

People do it just they want to do it. No need to earn money there.

If it were only for the money, the A8 had ended in 1986's state.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuumFyfIU4c

 

Is that Wolfenstein real?

[sack-c0s]

It's also like asking musician's why they still create new music on acoustic instruments invented hundreds of years ago, and why people still listen to such music. Part of the reason is because acoustic instruments have a particular character and a simplicity.

 

conversation over - MrFish just won it

[potatohead]

Yep.

 

Yeah, it's real. Very impressive renderer. Maybe one day we will see if the computer can really do the baddies too.

[BillyHW]

I can't understand how it's possible. Does that mean it could be done like that on other 8-bit computers/consoles too?

Edited May 15, 2012 by BillyHW

[Bryan]

I can't understand how it's possible. Does that mean it could be done like that on other 8-bit computers/consoles too?

It alternates color and grayscale lines in GTIA modes to simulate more colors. The effect works better on PAL monitors because they often mix color information from line to line.

[emkay]

I can't understand how it's possible. Does that mean it could be done like that on other 8-bit computers/consoles too?

 

The "special" with the A8 is that it has a "relatively fast" clocked 1.79MHz 6502 processor. Antic manages much of the screencontent and is able to copy several lines on the screen without cpu usage.

You don't find this on other "early 8 bits" . Except the character mode resolution, as used many times on the C64.

 

C64 has a much slower CPU, Spectrum has too limited screen capabilities, MSX has a too slow graphics bus...

Only CPC could go there in Turbo Mode. And all together have too less colours

Plus 4 has the colours but too much cycles get lost, Enterprise isn't able to solve the graphics speed....

 

and so on.

 

The A8 game isn't really optimised and doesn't use full memory of 64K machine. If all breaks down in gfx. Speed, still the PM graphics could be used to overlay the 3D screen with "baddies"....

 

I'd bet, in an 128K version also digi speech is possible there.

[potatohead]

Well, some versions of that game had always forward facing enemies. That could work, though I think the real score is to just render them using the same graphics technique. Maybe it's possible to do. Using the PM Graphics would be a punt, IMHO. But, maybe we will see how it all could shake out. There is a long way to go yet. What was shown is a renderer, a nice one so don't get me wrong, and some basic logic to make some interaction possible, doors & keys. Real game play is going to take some doing, and very serious optimization, IMHO. All that said, I think it's a damn cool tech demo.

[BillyHW]

I still don't believe it. I mean the original Wolfenstein was written for what...386 or 486? The 6502 in the Atari is a 1970s CPU. Orders of magnitude difference.

Edited May 15, 2012 by BillyHW

[Gunstar]

And of course I have my projector and 150 inch screen for DTV, movies and game systems.

 

Haha... a 150 inch display, now the truth comes out. A few minutes ago I thought you just had this humble setup.

 

The net would probably be my TV too, if it weren't for the fact that Direct TV is included in my rent.

 

I had free Cable/Satellite at the previous two places I lived. I watched it. I'm not against TV, since I'm the one who chooses when and what to watch. I just found that could live without it quite well. Even before, when I had all that channel selection for free, I found that I just left it on for background noise while working on my computer. Now I just use Media Player with a movie or music when I need that.

 

Background for me too, except when playing games or movies. I generally just leave the news on and work on my computers or read.

[emkay]

I still don't believe it. I mean the original Wolfenstein was written for what...386 or 486? The 6502 in the Atari is a 1970s CPU. Orders of magnitude difference.

 

You can check for yourself...

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/174274-project-m-20/