43 replies to this topic

[Gunstar]

ataridave, on Mon May 21, 2012 2:26 PM, said:

orpheuswaking, on Mon May 21, 2012 1:57 PM, said:

I have played mirax force on a ntsc machine i believe and it seems to work ok.

OK. Did you play it on disk or tape?

Thunderfox was also released on XE cartridge in the late 80's and that's what I have... the cartridge.

[ataridave]

Gunstar, on Tue May 22, 2012 10:15 AM, said:

ataridave, on Mon May 21, 2012 11:02 AM, said:

Well I read the instructions and switching weapons looks pretty simple to me, I'll get this. @Gunstar-I'm still curious as to how you play Mirax Force, because-like me-you live in NTSC territory.

Shoot, Tanium and Dawn Raider are both PAL-region games too.

Quite simple, I long ago installed a PAL Antic chip in my computer and thus not only retain (as far as I can tell) 100% NTSC compatibility, but about 99% of PAL region games too. There are still a few PAL games that don't work, but it's the fault of the programmers who write the programs to specifically check for a PAL machine that those few games won't load.

But, as far as Mirax Force is concerned, I played it many years ago (90's) on a strictly NTSC 130XE and never had a problem. Not all games that are PAL fail to work on NTSC machines, probably somewhere between 25-50% will work o.k. on NTSC machines.

Awesome! How hard is it to install that chip, and how much would it cost??

[Yautja]

Had to use the trainer file in order to make it to level 2... several times...



- Y -

[Tempest]

I tried to like Thunderfox, but I got tired of dying ever 3 seconds. It's a nice game, but you can tell it's a European shooter. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I've found that these type of games just aren't my cup of tea.

ataridave, on Tue May 22, 2012 11:17 AM, said:

Gunstar, on Tue May 22, 2012 10:15 AM, said:

Quite simple, I long ago installed a PAL Antic chip in my computer and thus not only retain (as far as I can tell) 100% NTSC compatibility, but about 99% of PAL region games too. There are still a few PAL games that don't work, but it's the fault of the programmers who write the programs to specifically check for a PAL machine that those few games won't load.

But, as far as Mirax Force is concerned, I played it many years ago (90's) on a strictly NTSC 130XE and never had a problem. Not all games that are PAL fail to work on NTSC machines, probably somewhere between 25-50% will work o.k. on NTSC machines.

Awesome! How hard is it to install that chip, and how much would it cost??

Seriously, I'd like to know this as well.

[orpheuswaking]

Playing it in NTSC could be tough as the speed could be off (never compared side to side so not sure)

[Gunstar]

Tempest, on Wed May 23, 2012 7:21 PM, said:

I tried to like Thunderfox, but I got tired of dying ever 3 seconds. It's a nice game, but you can tell it's a European shooter. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I've found that these type of games just aren't my cup of tea.

ataridave, on Tue May 22, 2012 11:17 AM, said:

Gunstar, on Tue May 22, 2012 10:15 AM, said:

Quite simple, I long ago installed a PAL Antic chip in my computer and thus not only retain (as far as I can tell) 100% NTSC compatibility, but about 99% of PAL region games too. There are still a few PAL games that don't work, but it's the fault of the programmers who write the programs to specifically check for a PAL machine that those few games won't load.

But, as far as Mirax Force is concerned, I played it many years ago (90's) on a strictly NTSC 130XE and never had a problem. Not all games that are PAL fail to work on NTSC machines, probably somewhere between 25-50% will work o.k. on NTSC machines.

Awesome! How hard is it to install that chip, and how much would it cost??

Seriously, I'd like to know this as well.

It's not like it's a big secret, a guy named Nir Dairy (or something to that effect) first tired this about 20 years ago and it has been discussed probably a 100 times here on AA over the years. I suprised there are those who still haven't heard of this mod. But, i am more than happy to help. It's quite simple, buy a PAL ANTIC chip from Best Electronics or B&C Computervisions (about $10-15 plus shipping) and swap out the NTSC ANTIC for the PAL. Of course if it's soldered in, you'll have to desolder the ANTIC and I would recommend installing a socket at that time. That's it! BUT keep in mind that you MUST have a monitor or TV that can accept the PAL region 50Hz signal, like commodore monitors and most modern HD TV's that still have composite or S-video jacks; there's a current thread that has a list of modern monitors/TV's that work well with 8-bits.

[Tempest]

Ok that part I understand, but what I want to know is how it keeps 100% compatibilty (or nearly so) with NTSC games. That part doesn't make sense to me. Is the PAL Antic chip some sort of more advanced version?

[Gunstar]

The NTSC GTIA chip that all video (even from antic) eventually goes through maintains the compatiblity. I don't know all the details myself, I never studied up on it, but it works and that's all I need to know. Just don't ask why, even Atari engineers that designed the computer say it's supposed to be impossible, but it works and it works GREAT! I and many other have proof through experience.

What I do know, is that ONLY the PAL Antic canbe inserted with excellent results, if you try putting just about ANY other PAL chips in an NTSC machine it won't work (though I have a 32-in-1 OS chip and PAL OS's work with no problem, but I've been told there's no difference between PAL and NTSC OS chips).

One other thing I've been told (which could easily be verified or debunked by PAL owners; do NTSC programs run on PAL machines? Just run, I'm not asking about how WELL they run), is that there aren't any NTSC programs that check to make sure they are running on an NTSC machine, where as there are some PAL programs that do check to make sure they are running on PAL machines (these few don't work in NTSC even with PAL Antic). This "check" is made on the GTIA chip. In any case, it's the GTIA chip that is checked for compatiblity, and the GTIA chip that allows a PAL Antic to work in NTSC machines.

Edited by Gunstar, Yesterday, 3:11 PM.

[Tempest]

Is there only one model of Antic chip for all the various Atari models?

[Gunstar]

Tempest, on Thu May 24, 2012 4:02 PM, said:

Is there only one model of Antic chip for all the various Atari models?

Besides NTSC and PAL versions, I think so. The Atari dealers only list one of each.

[kenjennings]

Gunstar, on Thu May 24, 2012 2:46 PM, said:

One other thing I've been told (which could easily be verified or debunked by PAL owners; do NTSC programs run on PAL machines? Just run, I'm not asking about how WELL they run),. . .

Most NTSC programs should run fine (adequately) in PAL... if a program does not purposely check for pal and refuse to run, it should work. Any custom display list set up by an NTSC program would have fewer scan lines than the PAL limit, so there should be no problems there. PAL has more time during the vertical blank, so any NTSC VBI code should run. An NTSC program that runs a timer based on 60 frames/sec would just run the timer slower for PAL's 50 fps. The only thing I can think remotely possible is an edge case where DLIs may not change registers at the expected screen positions...maybe.

[orpheuswaking]

Indeed, there are not many programs that check for PAL specifically, it is more a problem with graphics, speed of the game or a combination of the two...

For example Dropzone was highly optimized for PAL machines, but when it was released here it was not changed and most people in the states were not aware what a great game it was. (There is an article on Atarimania with the author explaining this). Another example is Elektraglide, it's a PITA the play on NTSC but works ok on PAL all due to timing.

there are also a number of games (that i don't recall right now) that the graphics just end up garbled and you can't play

Edited by orpheuswaking, Yesterday, 8:58 PM.

[Gunstar]

orpheuswaking, on Thu May 24, 2012 8:57 PM, said:

Indeed, there are not many programs that check for PAL specifically, it is more a problem with graphics, speed of the game or a combination of the two...

For example Dropzone was highly optimized for PAL machines, but when it was released here it was not changed and most people in the states were not aware what a great game it was. (There is an article on Atarimania with the author explaining this). Another example is Elektraglide, it's a PITA the play on NTSC but works ok on PAL all due to timing.

there are also a number of games (that i don't recall right now) that the graphics just end up garbled and you can't play

What you say is true, I remember playing games like Elektraglide and The Last V8 when they were released by mastertronic in the U.S. and always wondering why they made the games so damn difficult, I could never even make it past the first levels unless I was absolutely perfect, the games sucked due to a lack of time (time running too fast on NTSC machines). BUT, now that I have the PAL Antic installed which reduces the refresh rate to 50Hz, and suddenly both of those games are very playable and very fun. They have turned into favorites of mine. This mod (PAL Antic in NTSC machine) does have the effect of slightly slowing down some NTSC games, but it generally has no adverse effects, most games become a bit easier, sometimes it's a bit strange to listen to the slightly slower music, but I've gotten used to it. the difference with NTSC games is so slight it really doesn't effect playing games at all, in fact, the only difference I really notice is music playing slightly slower than I was used to with the games, but it doesn't take long to get used too, and the advantage of being able to play all those great PAL games more than makes up for it.

[Stephen]

You need to have both ANTICs in the machine, and make them switchable

[emkay]

Games , like this, also Mirax Force and other crap, show the unexperienced coders, and how they managed the "standard" features on the A8.
Those are not really games. Just tries to make a game and sell it. I wouldn't even wonder , if such games made people decide to buy another computer.
Because, with the same "amount of coding Knowledge" you've been able to build games like Armalyte on the C64, because the machine had enough resources left to add all the special features...

Drop Zone still shows how things have to go with charmode on the A8...

[Tempest]

Stephen, on Thu May 24, 2012 10:11 PM, said:

You need to have both ANTICs in the machine, and make them switchable

That would cool.

[TMR]

emkay, on Thu May 24, 2012 11:44 PM, said:

Because, with the same "amount of coding Knowledge" you've been able to build games like Armalyte on the C64

No, you wouldn't.

As fpr Thunderfox, it's okay but as has been pointed out there are better examples of the genre on the A8.

[emkay]

TMR, on Fri May 25, 2012 7:03 AM, said:

emkay, on Thu May 24, 2012 11:44 PM, said:

Because, with the same "amount of coding Knowledge" you've been able to build games like Armalyte on the C64

No, you wouldn't.

Ofcourse you do.

Quote

As fpr Thunderfox, it's okay but as has been pointed out there are better examples of the genre on the A8.

Really?

[TMR]

emkay, on Fri May 25, 2012 11:33 AM, said:

TMR, on Fri May 25, 2012 7:03 AM, said:

emkay, on Thu May 24, 2012 11:44 PM, said:

Because, with the same "amount of coding Knowledge" you've been able to build games like Armalyte on the C64

No, you wouldn't.

Ofcourse you do.

Armalyte is significantly more complicated than you, as a non-coder who has no experience of the C64, apparently believe it to be. Had you said "games like Delta" which doesn't have a sorting multiplexer and relies on similar sprite recycling to Thunderfox and so forth, that'd be about right.

emkay, on Fri May 25, 2012 11:33 AM, said:

TMR, on Fri May 25, 2012 7:03 AM, said:

As fpr Thunderfox, it's okay but as has been pointed out there are better examples of the genre on the A8.

Really?

Mirax Force and Oxygene are both better examples, yes - although if i had a free choice of games using this particular form of sprite recycling i'd go for Humanoid personally, it isn't a walkover but has a shallower difficulty curve.